By Greg Gillespie Self Published S&W Levels 1-7
Gundgathol lies in ruin. Over 250 years ago, an evil host rose from the underdark and pushed the dwarves out of their ancestral mountains. Since that time, orcs and worse have defiled their sacred halls. In recent days, the high dwarven clerics cast their runestones and read the portents: the time has come to retake Gundgathol. Are you brave (or fooloish) enough to enter Dwarrowdeep?
This 336 adventure attempts, once again, to do Moria. It has specific keys, using about half its page count, for about thirteen different areas, and then some D1 hexcrawl & procedural generation for other Moria locations. It’s using a B2-like descriptive format. Do you want that slightly generic feel? Are you willing to put up with doing your own maps (using geomorphs) and keying them and having a generic-ish vibe? Great, then this is for you.
I am, clearly, not having this shit anymore.
It’s another attempt at Moria. Moria is too big to key so you get a hex crawl map to get you from location to location, ala D1, and then some rules for using provided geomorphs to create levels and deeps, and some rules on how to populate them. So, you get some DMG like tables and then, the last step, step 15, is “Interpret the Results.” Great. Bring it to life, he means. If I wanted to do that I’d write my own from scratch. I’m not buying an adventure to create it from scratch, procedurally. I’m buying an adventure so I DON’T have to do that. Just grab the old Moria supplement and the DMG and crank some shit out. Why, exactly, do you need this booklet? “But Bryce, how else can you do Moria?” Well, maybe, don’t do fucking Moria if you can’t figure it out. Besides, the Fellowship Moria thing was just a trip through it, not a delve.
Ok, so, no, some of you are not going to be happy with that analysis. Let us, instead, forget all about the procedural generation thing. Let’s pretend it doesn’t exist. Let’s instead review the maps/keys/areas that are presented. This is six entrance areas and seven other location sites, most of which have 100 or so rooms, or more. (with a notable exception in the ruined tower on the mountain peak that has a dragon.) Let’s just review that, shall we? After all, I don’t really care how much something costs, or background shit or any of that. Let’s just look at the value we’re getting for our $35 for those thirteen areas.
“Four Dwarven Skeletal Guards AL: CE, AC: 4, HD: 1, HP: 8, 7, 5, 4, #AT: 1, DMG: 1d6, lay on the floor here. They burn with malice for the living. One has a pouch with 3d6gp and another has a Seax Knife +1.”
Laying on the floor! Burning with malice for the living! Have you ever read such majesty before on the written page?! Does your heart not leap with joy at the prospects of running this room?! Are you not entertained?! No? You’re not? Ah, then how about this little gem of a room:
“The Orc Rat-Master AL: CE, AC: 6 (Studded and mShield), HD: 1, HP: 5, #AT: 1, Weapon: Whip (1d4), Scimitar (1d6), and Dagger (1d4), Treasure: 5gp, 8ep, 9sp, 2cp, uses this room as his quarters. Under a stone in the floor, under his bed of dirty furs, is a Huge Broken Pale Green Variscite (20gp), a Large Transparent Green Augelite (24gp), and a Small Deep Blue Azurite (20gp).”
Of course! Masterful!
There’s nothing here. It’s just a hair above a minimalistic keying style. Sure, there’s some rooms that have more text. To no real effect. There are no real evocative descriptions anywhere in this. There is, though, padding: “The Ruined Temple of Thaneduhr: This rough- hewn temple to Thaneduhr All-Father was defaced and defiled by the orcs. It now lies in ruin.” That’s a meaningless couple of sentences, especially to start with. It goes on to describe a large statue with the face changed to that of the orc god, rubble, a bloody altar, and some bodies and chained prisoners. There’s some potential here, but it’s described lifelessly. The rooms are just padded out with stats and what the monster is wielding, and treasure. If this is removed you may get, mostly, one sentence per room. “The orcs here are wagering over a fight between two stirge” The alcove contains a pile of decaying corpses infested with rot grubs. Something partially buried in the dirt gleams at the back of this dead end. There’s no life in any of this. I’d have much preferred to gloss over the stats and weapons and instead have an extra sentence or two to bring the aggressively genetic minimalism to life. Because that’s what you should be paying for in an adventure.
I can roll on a table. I can find a program to roll on a table for me and spit out a generic dungeon. This is not the heart of D&D. The heart of D&D is the magic of imagination and the weirdness of the interactivity. That’s what you’re paying a designer for. Otherwise just go play some Angband.
Barrowmaze had some life. The towers thing had some life. The Caverns thing was, as is this, aggressively minimal and generic in a way that doesn’t work with the adventure. This needs A LOT more of step 15. A LOT more of it.
“Dwarrowdeep is the single largest dwarven themed adventure in the history of role-playing games.” I don’t love you, you don’t love me. Da Da Da”
This is $35 at DriveThru.There’s no preview because it’s a zip file blah blah blah.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/384269/Dwarrowdeep?1892600
Poser Greg strikes again. It seems like he cares about TSR-era aesthetics and illustrators much more than writing actually playable and (god-forbid) enjoyable megadungeon.
Your envy is showing Gus.
‘“But Bryce, how else can you do Moria?” Well, maybe, don’t do fucking Moria if you can’t figure it out.’
– QUOTED FOR MOTHERLOVING TRUTH.
Like you, I have the original MERP Moria book and it is all I will ever need to reference for a Moria style adventure. I’m tired of incomplete adventures being advertised as Minimalist or OSR. Bah!
I picked up Arden Vul a year ago and we’ve been neck deep in glorious Megadungeon crawling ever since. There’s plenty in it that I flat out ignore, true, but it’s got such solid world building that my work as a GM is SO much easier.
Yep, the MERP Moria module is rigged for win. When I ran a Moria-esque place in my game … I used the Moria module. Can’t bear the obscene eBay prices, guess what? TSR put out a MERP-Moria clone in 1984; it’s called Dragons of Desolation and disguised and hidden into the Dragonlance series. It also has a poster-sized map and all the Moria geomorphs a DM could ever want. Say what you want about the DL series, all the stops were pulled out for its maps.
On that note, MERP also released Cirith Ungol, Shelob’s Lair and Angmar and hit all out of the park; there’s no need to try to recreate these sites; it’s been done and they are glorious.
How are you and others referencing MERP Moira as if it is even a dungeon adventure? I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Is this just some bizarre attempt at nerd cred flexing? You would need the whole procedural generation section of dwarrowdeep to even use the MERP module in a game, they aren’t in any way comparable.
I can only report on my game and I can assure you that, circa 1985, we were running Moria as if it were an AD&D module using AD&D rules. I’m certain my group wasn’t the only one.
The point and I others are making is that it is probably Quixotic, at best, to take on Moria. Not only are you competing against the fictional ur-Dungeon itself, but also against the Moria the readers envisioned in their minds *and* the gaming versions of Moria that came before – such as MERP’s version which is exceedingly well done.
“This 336 [page] adventure … and then some D1 hexcrawl & procedural generation” Like, pick one? You either do the whole thing (Melan could put at least 1000 locations on that page count) or give us some geomorphs and decent tables to stock them on a few dozen pages. This sounds like a worst-of-both-worlds situation!
Maybe we should challenge Melan to create a 1000 location Moria-clone. Bwahahahah.
there are about 1000 keyed locations in dwarrowdeep, on top of the procedural stuff
Bryce’s “review” is terrible, yes, but the general concept mirrors the thoughts of others that I’ve seen who have bothered to attempt a review.
Do they all resemble the examples given in the review?
I had high hopes for this one, as I need a good abandoned dwarven megadungeon for my hexcrawl. Apart from MERP Moria, which other adventures do you recommend me?
I’m still looking for a great one, too. Chantry of the Deepflame is pretty good, albeit a bit confusing in places and suffers from the blight of excessive new monsters and magic items. I’d rank it number 1 so far, but I’m still waiting for the one true Moria adventure to rule them all. The search goes on, I guess.
https://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=6587
The good parts are better than Bryce gives it credit for, but the flaws are real.
If you pick it up, be sure to also download the free bestiary.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/241383/Bestiary-of-the-Rosewood-Highlands?src=also_purchased
Will check it. Thanks.
Hammers of the God is a great abandoned Dwarven dungeon.
Will take a look at it. Thank you.
Eye of the serpent
Thunderdelve
Deep dwarven delve
Dragon lance I think dl4 Thorbardin
Axe of the dwarvish lords
Mayfair games had a few supplements
Dwarves. Detailed dwarven kingdom of Ostraghar
Dark Folk had a adventure centered around kobolds in a dwarven ruin
Glory Hole dwarven mine by Wee Warriors Dungeon Masters kit #2
Thank you! That helps a lot!
Halls of a Beoull- Dur https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg041.pdf
Fuck I had no idea MERP had good supplements. On it!
YeOldeGeek has posted a few YouTube videos with his thoughts on MERP supplements/adventures.
Many MERP supplements are outstanding and the maps are both detailed and beautiful! I personally would highly recommend them.
Which is a better Moria supplement, 1e or 2e?
Oh! Are you in for delights! I wish I could re-rediscover them.
Probably worth noting, there was an actual Moria dungeon for D&D in White Dwarf #38 called Khazad Dûm, complete with Lotr premades, however it is very vanilla and written like a tournament module.
Yeah there’s a lot of marvellous MERP out there.
Gunderholfen is much better, for a fraction of the price.
Yea verily!
ANGBAND ROUGELIKE TIMEEEEEEE
DCSS QUD TOME4 CDDA DF BROUGE ADOM
Interestingly enough, I just bought a $100 chromebook last night as a dedicated Angband machine for quick pick up and play casual gaming on the sofa, etc.
I’m not sure if it’s gonna cut it though. I may need to go ipad with a keyboard or some other more dedicated device to get what I want … including some retro pc games.
I must not Gus L here. They have similar opinions.
Posion of nostalga aside, its striking to see alike two roads
Diff people, same impressions, remark the hark bells of eh
LETS GO I would factory reset a an old eBay laptop. But I play rougelikes with my Chromebook and it works great.
You could even instal Kumbuntu or Arch on it if you want more.
For retro games? Retroarch is what you want. Its on play store and every other platform.
Have you played the other games I mentioned? Like andband tome4/ eyes of taj mayel was based on lotr before it got dmcad like angband.
Caves of Qud is gamma world and inspired vaults of varrn (circles are funny)
Yeah, I’m familiar with them. But, also, I want to play some old DOS pc games also, an,maybe run a C64 emulator or some such.
But, I also want it to be instant on (or close to it) and some kind of “mobile gaming” thing. Super cas pick up and play. I’ve got laptops, etc, but, it just don’t FEEL right playing angband on the sofa with them. And that Chromebook isn’t going to fix it. Which means that the ipad/kb prob isn’t either.
IDK. There’s got to be something to whip out in line and play some Angband/Ultima 1
Get steamdeck and go play Realms of Antiquity and Nox Archaist.
Sorry for text dump but are you 1 player and like DND?
Whether it’s ADOM, IVAN or (arguably) Dwarf Fortress, let’s talk about it!
**Rules:**
* Be nice.
* Play roguelikes.
[What’s a roguelike?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike)
Popular roguelikes:
* [Ancient Domains of Mystery](http://adom.de/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/ADOM))
* [Angband](http://rephial.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/angband))
* [Brogue](http://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/brogueforum))
* [CataclysmDDA](https://cataclysmdda.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/cataclysmdda))
* [Caves of Qud](http://store.steampowered.com/app/333640/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/cavesofqud/))
* [Cogmind](http://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/cogmind))
* [DoomRL](http://drl.chaosforge.org/)
* [Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup](http://crawl.develz.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/dcss))
* [Dungeonmans](http://www.dungeonmans.com/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/Dungeonmans))
* [Dungeons of Dredmor](https://dungeonsofdredmor.com/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/dredmor))
* [Golden Krone Hotel](https://www.goldenkronehotel.com/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/goldenkronehotel/))
* [HyperRogue](http://www.roguetemple.com/z/hyper/)
* [Infra Arcana](https://sites.google.com/site/infraarcana/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/InfraArcana/))
* [IVAN](https://attnam.com/)
* [Jupiter Hell](https://jupiterhell.com/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/JupiterHell))
* [NetHack](http://nethack.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/nethack))
* [POWDER](http://www.zincland.com/powder/)
* [Rogue](https://britzl.github.io/roguearchive/)
* [Sil](http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/)
* [Tales of Maj’Eyal](http://te4.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/ToME4))
* [The Ground Gives Way](http://www.thegroundgivesway.com/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/thegroundgivesway/))
* [UnReal World](http://www.unrealworld.fi/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/urw))
Popular mobile roguelikes:
* [868-HACK](http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/868-hack/id635749911?mt=8)
* [Ananias](http://ananiasgame.com/)
* [Auro](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.DinofarmAuro&hl=en)
* [Cardinal Quest 2](http://cardinalquest2.com/)
* [Hoplite](http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.magmafortress.hoplite)
* [Pathos: NetHack Codex](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.x10host.pathos) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathos_nethack/))
* [Pixel Dungeon](http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.watabou.pixeldungeon) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/pixeldungeon))
* [Sproggiwood](http://freeholdgames.com/?page_id=39)
* [WazHack](http://www.wazhack.com/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/WazHack))
Other useful links:
* Find more awesome roguelikes at [RogueBasin](http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/)
* A [torrented bundle](https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/3dg4p9/roguelike_mega_collection_2015_over_700_free/) of many many roguelikes
* The [ArchiveRL](https://archive.org/details/ArchiveRL.7z) project, building a complete archive of roguelikes
* [Roguebase](http://www.roguebase.net/), an RL blog aggregator
* [Roguelike Radio](http://roguelikeradio.com/) podcast for all things roguelike-y
**Roguelike(ish)-Specific Subreddits:**
* [*Roguelike Development*](http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikedev)
* [*Roguelites*](http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelites)
* [Binding of Isaac](http://www.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac)
* [Caves](https://www.reddit.com/r/cavesrl/)
* [Crypt of the Necrodancer](http://www.reddit.com/r/necrodancer)
* [Darkest Dungeon](http://www.reddit.com/r/darkestdungeon)
* [Dwarf Fortress](http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress)
* [Elona](https://www.reddit.com/r/Elona/)
* [FTL](http://reddit.com/r/ftlgame)
* [KeeperRL](https://www.reddit.com/r/keeperrl)
* [NEO Scavenger](https://www.reddit.com/r/neoscavenger)
* [Pathos](http://www.reddit.com/r/pathos_nethack/)
* [Spelunky](http://www.reddit.com/r/spelunky)
* [TomeNET](https://www.reddit.com/r/TomeNET/)
* [Warsim: The Realm of Aslona](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarsimRpg/)
* [Wayward](http://www.reddit.com/r/wayward)
* [Streets of Rogue](http://www.reddit.com//r/streetsofrogue)
**Chat:**
* #rgrd on irc.quakenet.org
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* [/r/roguelikes Discord](https://discord.gg/t9cVHhj)
Whether it’s ADOM, IVAN or (arguably) Dwarf Fortress, let’s talk about it!
[What’s a roguelike?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike)
Popular roguelikes:
* [Ancient Domains of Mystery](http://adom.de/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/ADOM))
* [Angband](http://rephial.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/angband))
* [Brogue](http://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/brogueforum))
* [CataclysmDDA](https://cataclysmdda.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/cataclysmdda))
* [Caves of Qud](http://store.steampowered.com/app/333640/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/cavesofqud/))
* [Cogmind](http://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/cogmind))
* [DoomRL](http://drl.chaosforge.org/)
* [Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup](http://crawl.develz.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/dcss))
* [Dungeonmans](http://www.dungeonmans.com/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/Dungeonmans))
* [Dungeons of Dredmor](https://dungeonsofdredmor.com/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/dredmor))
* [Golden Krone Hotel](https://www.goldenkronehotel.com/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/goldenkronehotel/))
* [HyperRogue](http://www.roguetemple.com/z/hyper/)
* [Infra Arcana](https://sites.google.com/site/infraarcana/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/InfraArcana/))
* [IVAN](https://attnam.com/)
* [Jupiter Hell](https://jupiterhell.com/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/JupiterHell))
* [NetHack](http://nethack.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/nethack))
* [POWDER](http://www.zincland.com/powder/)
* [Rogue](https://britzl.github.io/roguearchive/)
* [Sil](http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/)
* [Tales of Maj’Eyal](http://te4.org/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/ToME4))
* [The Ground Gives Way](http://www.thegroundgivesway.com/) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/thegroundgivesway/))
* [UnReal World](http://www.unrealworld.fi/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/urw))
Popular mobile roguelikes:
* [868-HACK](http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/868-hack/id635749911?mt=8)
* [Ananias](http://ananiasgame.com/)
* [Auro](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.DinofarmAuro&hl=en)
* [Cardinal Quest 2](http://cardinalquest2.com/)
* [Hoplite](http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.magmafortress.hoplite)
* [Pathos: NetHack Codex](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.x10host.pathos) ([sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathos_nethack/))
* [Pixel Dungeon](http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.watabou.pixeldungeon) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/pixeldungeon))
* [Sproggiwood](http://freeholdgames.com/?page_id=39)
* [WazHack](http://www.wazhack.com/) ([sub](http://www.reddit.com/r/WazHack))
Other useful links:
* Find more awesome roguelikes at [RogueBasin](http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/)
* A [torrented bundle](https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/3dg4p9/roguelike_mega_collection_2015_over_700_free/) of many many roguelikes
* The [ArchiveRL](https://archive.org/details/ArchiveRL.7z) project, building a complete archive of roguelikes
* [Roguebase](http://www.roguebase.net/), an RL blog aggregator
* [Roguelike Radio](http://roguelikeradio.com/) podcast for all things roguelike-y
**Roguelike(ish)-Specific Subreddits:**
* [*Roguelike Development*](http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikedev)
* [*Roguelites*](http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelites)
* [Binding of Isaac](http://www.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac)
* [Caves](https://www.reddit.com/r/cavesrl/)
* [Crypt of the Necrodancer](http://www.reddit.com/r/necrodancer)
* [Darkest Dungeon](http://www.reddit.com/r/darkestdungeon)
* [Dwarf Fortress](http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress)
* [Elona](https://www.reddit.com/r/Elona/)
* [FTL](http://reddit.com/r/ftlgame)
* [KeeperRL](https://www.reddit.com/r/keeperrl)
* [NEO Scavenger](https://www.reddit.com/r/neoscavenger)
* [Pathos](http://www.reddit.com/r/pathos_nethack/)
* [Spelunky](http://www.reddit.com/r/spelunky)
* [TomeNET](https://www.reddit.com/r/TomeNET/)
* [Warsim: The Realm of Aslona](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarsimRpg/)
* [Wayward](http://www.reddit.com/r/wayward)
* [Streets of Rogue](http://www.reddit.com//r/streetsofrogue)
**Chat:**
* #rgrd on irc.quakenet.org
* #roguelikes on irc.synirc.com
* [/r/roguelikes Discord](https://discord.gg/t9cVHhj)
Woah that looks like a great list. Thanks! I’ve played Dwarf, ADOM, DoomRL, all great, Nethack meh. So your list gives me a bunch more to look into.
Good list for Bryce at https://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/about/
Hummm yeah I know what you mean.
Steam decks have some user layouts but rls need a keyboard / jumped unless they have a mouse UI
For old dos stuff retroarch is good software, does everything up to 10 years ago
Link to Gus l and Bryce mindtrist below
Dwarrow post
bonesofcontention.blogspot.com
Wow, now THAT’S a review that gives me the info I need to make a truly informed decision about a fairly expensive product. Thanks.
My problem with Dwarrowdeep (aside from the all the procedurally generated secondary areas and the unstocked areas on the maps), is that it’s “Moria but vanilla D&D”
The weirdest thing in it are the OGLified Kuo-toa and they aren’t weird enough in context to be interesting
I would venture to say, by the time you get done making Moria interesting, it may not feel much like Moria.
Is that really a bad thing? Moria in LOTR isn’t an adventure site. There’s a puzzle, a LONG trek where nothing happens, then a battle. They aren’t looting or exploring, they’re trying to GTFO to their real destination.
Wish this review had come out one week earlier. I love Barrowmaze and despite the generic aspect of Caves, think there’s enough back story and conflict to run a fun campaign. Yeah, Dwarrowdeep arrived yesterday and I was deeply disappointed in it. It feels bloated and generic, yet it also feels like it was released prematurely. It needs editing, rewriting, expansion, and more editing. I now have to consider just keeping this on the shelf and only take it down if I can find the time to do all of that myself, which is highly unlikely (it’s hard enough to find the time and energy to get people together to play as the world outside burns).
Part of the reason I bought Gillespie’s work is because there’s always been a real lack of mega dungeon material for 1e and I’ve always longed to play in one or DM one. Tenfootpole has helped me find at least four solid mega dungeons– for that I am grateful. I think for a while I’m going to stick to purchasing smaller one-off modules or fleshed out town/city adventures as I construct a world to DM. I’ll continue looking for those elusive well- done mega dungeons on this web site, but I’ll be holding off on Gillespie’s product until he returns to form.
I hope he can do that because it would be a shame if it kept going in this direction. I know that he reads this forum so I hope he does not take these criticisms personally: the effort and passion are evident. I’m glad he took a stab at a Moria-type adventure despite it probably being a fool’s errand. But I think Barrowmaze represents the mega dungeon Platonic ideal. Dwarrowdeep feels like it was poured into the Barrowmaze form but wasn’t baked. It’s a shame, but not the end of the world. It was probably inevitable given the size of the undertaking. Nevertheless, perhaps counter-intuitively,I think quality over quantity should probably be the watchword for mega dungeon product going forward
Barrowmaze seems to be about the right size for adventure: the trouble with some of these huge mega-dungeons is that you need a lot of play to feel you have achieved something.(Although Gunderholfen makes a fine effort with its table of tasks and possible patrons.) Arriving in two parts rather than one big volume might also have helped Barrowmaze: appetite whetted for more rather than “I can’t imagine we’ll cover more than a tenth of this”.
Like you, I’m not a fan of procedural generation. So, I felt a huge sense of letdown when I first read that DwarrowDeep went that route.
What really confuses me , though, is your point about there being no life to it. How can the same person who wrote BarrowMaze, which is chock full of evocative encounters, have created this?
That said, there’s part of me that doesn’t approve of being too hard on creators that attempt difficult things and miss. It’s a little strange to read this review, written essentially in the same tone as that devoted to most of the Mork Borg ‘adventures’ reviewed here.
I don’t know whether to hope he ‘finishes’ it with ‘DwarrowDeep Complete’, eventually, or channels his creative energies to another thing.
If we want to play the comparison game or have a battle to the death, what about Gunderholfen? Mr. Hawkins adventures do not stray away from wild imagination and weirdness.
It’s not bad, it just has zero feeling of Moria.
True, it was never written to be anything like Moria and the ‘ancient dwarf ruin’ thing was only ever a small component of the dungeon’s background and history.
I’d definitely put Bottomless Pit of Zorth in the weirder, or a least, less ‘standard vanilla’ end of the spectrum.
I found Bottomless Pit of Zorth to be completely infuriating to read, to the point that I doubt I would ever try to run it.
Wow! That is definitely not my experiece.
(Updated my username link to my correct URL).
It’s *weird*, but Zorth irked me for being too many minor variations (types of slime) on the same idea (SLIMES) too closely spaced together. Which…given the title, perhaps is more on me than on Zorth.
More than that, though, was the commonality of foes you can’t engage with outside of combat (S L I M E S) that *also* require practically on-the-spot procgen table rolls to generate stats for. It struck me as a playability issue.
All that said… I do kinda want to make some kind of physical prop/model of the dungeon’s structure, if for no other reason than to make it easier to describe to my players.
Indeed, some tricky areas and moving parts to convey in an easy to understand way for everyone in this adventure. More diagrams may have helped in hindsight, I’ll try better next time. There are no encounters where you have to randomly roll up any monsters on the spot, though you can if you like, so not sure where you got that idea from. Having too many things you can talk to in the manner of comprehensible, human-like beings would detract from the environment I was trying to create: an alien, messed up, giant laboratory of some inscrutable, extra-dimensional being, totally under its control and working for its purposes alone. Hence the only beings you can talk to (the falling gnome, the NPC party, the sage turned into a pillar of flesh) are human or human-like intruding into the environment. This reinforces the sense that this is not Kansas. However, the inhabitants are not on the whole always hostile, many ignore the PCs unless harassed; the PCs can take control of them and form a small army by interacting or messing with things. Not everyone’s cup of tea I’m sure.
I’d sure love to see a prop/model though!
I simultaneously feel like people vastly overrate Barrowmaze and underrate Dwarrowdeep. I would never run either straight out of the book for more than a totally impromptu session, but shit I find Barrowmaze way more bland than Dwarrowdeep. There’s cave with the crysmal vs xorn war, the petrified dwarf lich, and the race for the holy dorf hammer (that mirrors the Barrowmaze endgame); its not all generic.
Barrowmaze is great, but I’d be open to hearing more about why you think Dwarrowdeep is better than the generally consistent reviews so far.
I had a blast playing in a Barrowmaze campaign, but underground it was basically undead and more undead. Not a lot you could talk to, therefore minus one major pillar of OSR play, also therefore D&D on hard mode. I gather there’s supposed to be some faction action going on but aside from witnessing a necromancer-on-necromancer battle that we stayed the fuck out of (so might as well have been a cut scene), we didn’t get into it. I believe the DM was going and rolling strictly by the book, so maybe he needed to fudge some rolls to get more speaking encounters and bring out the faction element more?
Admittedly we never cleared it, nor reached any apparent endgame, but with two years’ real time in I’d think we’d have seen more.
A couple of comparisons that have not been made so far:
(i) If you want to play the strategic alliance against the duergar game, and to simulate some battles, the “Army of Hope” mechanics from Dungeon adventure (issue 70) KIngdom of the Ghouls might serve. Recovering certain artefacts would inspire certain factions (giving them more combat points);
(ii) Sounds like Dwarrowdeep tries to do something similar to 2E’s Night Below (which itself was an homage to G1-3D1-3). Yet Night Below had mystery concerning the ultimate bad guys, flux points for swift magical travel, allies to find, short term alliances of convenience, variation in combats where sometimes surgical strikes against key figures would reduce a hostile city to chaos (with mechanics for this), enemy counterattacks, underwater combat, reasons to report back to the surface (such as consulting sages) so you could take a break from the Underdark.
Gus and Bryce agree everyone. Pigs fly and I hope Greg G shoots higher next time for more interesting encounters
Pretty sure Gus and Bryce agree on most things, it’s just the weirdo right wing trolls in these comments that hate Gus, and even then it’s for personal reasons that aren’t about how he designs adventures.
1. Persistent bitterness regarding early TSR formatting and output, particularly towards Gary Gygax
2. Inability to comprehend or interact with world in terms that do not involve contemporary bi-polar political framework as understood by first year college student.
3. Solipsism. Deceitful framing or brushing over of track record of disastrous interactions with normal people (f.e. by calling them nazis, portraying them as backwards, general dunning-kruger related bloviation and emotional incontinence, inability to defend any viewpoint when challenged) and inability to acknowledge the inevitable result therefrom.
4. Deficient empathy. When arguing an opposing view, heavy use of quotation marks is made to denigrate the very concepts the opponent is using and cast doubt on his sanity. Any opposition is always portrayed as a lunatic, incapable of coherent viewpoints and moral agency. Mental illness is frequently invoked, despite having no apparent knowledge of psychology.
White knight him all you want, but Gygax still won’t fuck you.
Show us on the doll where Gary Gygax touched you!
Yet the poster also possesses traits 2 through 4. Among a list of other deficits.
I once experienced two incompetent, socially inept and utterly similar people absolutely unravel with jealousy and hatred for each other. Watching it live was hilarious. Online it is just amusing. The pitifulness comes through more.
> it’s just the weirdo right wing trolls in these comments that hate Gus
Right on cue!
The internet never forgets.
Unlike Bryce, a good reviewer, Gus’s views aren’t really coherent beyond a few landmark modules (G1 say), but then again that might be because no one can get through his reviews because they are too long and boring.
Um. I like GusL’s reviews AND can get through them.
Perhaps long winded boring folks just get each other?
Hmm. Not sure why that’s posting me as “anonymous.” I’m the long-winded, boring Jonathan Becker.
I had to log out and log back in. If I post this as Anonymous, my solution didn’t work. 😛
@JB
Heroic fortitude! Surely you must be descended from a long line of monks.
Length alone does not make or break a review. It hits on a few notes that Bryce will merely clip as he writes the review on his phone while commuting from the bathroom to his office, but the conceptual density is very low. Who is the target audience? The review attempts a serious treatment of the material that would leave newcomers bored to tears while the frequent explanations and clarifications are entirely vestigial to anyone with an interest in the subject matter.
Adjectives that come to mind: Pedantic, Verbose, Dragging, Smug, Pretentious, Tortuous, Condescending, Punchable.
The incoherent use of the term ‘Gygaxian’ to describe decidedly non-Appendix N vanilla fantasy has been levelled at Gus before and he always evaded addressing it. The omission of MERP’s Moria as a base for comparison is a forgiveable mistake and would make for an interesting base for comparison. This is why having a community of knowledgeable commenters, like the real review blogs have, is essential, but Gus has resolved that everyone that does not agree with him is some sort of alt-right neckbeard that must be Year Zero’d from the hobby. These two impulses are at odds.
Perhaps I am overly cynical, and the interminably pedantic style, as of a college professor lecturing to a crowd of unusually patient 8-year olds, grows on one as one gets deeper in.
Deep dives and pedantry may just be my liquor and smokes…though such essays hold my interest far more when A) they are on a subject that I enjoy (like D&D), and B) on subjects with which I already have passing familiarity (such as films I’ve already watched or adventure modules I’ve already owned/run).
Color, writing style, and what-rubs-folks-wrong is going to vary from individual to individual. For me the most off-putting thing is someone writing ignorantly AND authoritatively…regardless of TONE, I don’t generally get that vibe from GusL’s stuff. Incoherent (or inconsistently used) terms like “Gygaxian”…eh, I tend to gloss over that stuff and focus on the more concrete.
Maybe it’s just an acquired taste? I like raw oysters, too (though we get good ones out in my neck o the woods).
This is the pot calling the kettle black. Watching people hate another for the same qualities that are central to their own personalities is rare fun.
I backed this on Kickstarter, and was quite disappointed with it (especially the “generate your own dungeon” aspect), but I’m not sure how much of that was tainted by the “Anglo-Saxon” controversy Greg managed to create for himself.
Apparently that word doesn’t mean what I thought it meant (or doesn’t only mean that, anyway) and my world became slightly crappier than it was before.
I was unaware of that, looked it up.
Welp. $#&@.
To add insult to mediocrity, some of the monster stats you need for Dwarrowdeep are printed in Doc G’s earlier works, so you have to buy another dry, overpriced tome just to get the stats for a flagstone spider, or some such. Yeah, no thanks Greg.
Man, I have this off Kickstarter and I’ve never even dug into it. That’s pretty terrible, but I have finally stopped backing kickstarters for other reasons.
I positively like geomorphs, tables, build your own X toolsets. If I know I’m getting that, that’s a good thing. So I expect I’ll get some use out of it.
For an adventure though I’d prefer to see a fully worked example, and then the geomorphs and tables in appendices in the back. Half done is… half done.
I feel about the same as Dave. Give me giant maps, good art, some procedures, and then let me do a lot of “step 15”. I like step 15. I do also like adventures that are more fleshed out with original ideas like those OSE adventures, but they don’t give me that feeling of having a giant location semi-prepared like Greg’s work does.
1) Jesus H. Christ, this comment section is now as huge as the adventure itself.
2) Is it time for a “dwarven dungeon” contest?
How about a 10-page maximum dwarf mega-dungeon contest? LOL (And of course some contestant will submit 100 pages with 6 pages of maps, which of course was part of their own campaign last century). And the winner will not use dwarves, orcs, or undead as monsters. (OK, I’m getting a little too cynical with that last comment).
Dwarven mega-dungeon on the back of a giant turtle.
mini-turtle mega-Dungeon on the back of a giant dwarf
Yet another BullShit review from 10 foot pole up Bryce’s ass
Sire, we can inform the good people of Dale, that we have located their long lost idiot.
I don’t mind randomly generated stuff in tabletop games, but this sounds pretty boring, huh? Dwarven mines didn’t really grab me to begin with.
It’s kinda funny – I reviewed Dwarrowdeep because I was rereading Tolkien and was interested to see if someone had done a decent job on it after all these years. Figured Dwarrowdeep would be my best bet.
It wasn’t, it’s not good for so many reasons, including some real basics of dungeon design. It’s also not good as Moria either because it doesn’t bother to take what’s impressive from Tolkien and actually think through trying to make it into RPG content wither.
Got around to reading this and its nice to see Bryce saw many of the same issues I did. Not sure what’s up here in the comments though except the usual suspects drowning out any useful discussion by being their usual awful selves. It’s weird because I didn’t even have to comment to draw the obsessives. Stay gold, pony boy, stay gold.
Maybe we should all, you know, talk about games and try to find some common ground instead of sniping at and tearing down each other at every opportunity.
Oh wait, this is the internet. What was I thinking? (insert facepalm here)
I don’t like Greg’s stuff – boring basically. And overpriced. Yes the art is good. Also I don’t like Greg – forcing students to buy his products for the class he teaches. Just give them to them yo. Or, better, use examples from other authors.
That’s literally all of academia though
All? Ugh, bummer. Times have changed.
I don’t know what times you’re referring to. It was the same exact thing when I was in college 25 years ago.
What does it take to be Moria? Must it be as colossal as the MERP supplement or can it be something much simpler?
Also, must all dwarven strongholds be Moria to be good?
Here I sit having a cup of tea and playing in Moria (ok, this ramble has sidetracked me).
How is that possible?
In my hand is a copy of ‘Middle-earth Quest: Mines of Moria’, a gamebook published in 1988 by Iron Crown Enterprises the fine folks behind MERP.
And it uses a simplified form of that system!
There are three maps: Forge, Great hall and the overview from the door to the hall. That is it. Moria is huge but to “play” in it and experience it the city can be condensed down to its essentials. Do we need empty chamber after empty chamber to sense the lost grandeur?
Perhaps Dwarrowdeep gives the DM the option to make it as concise or as sprawling as they want (MEQ or MERP). I am still chewing on the massive tome when i have time outside of my required campaign works. I think we hold Dr. G to a very high standard because of Barrowmaze Complete. By the time BMC was published in 2015 it had already existed for at least 5 yrs. Dr. G refers to compiling his campaign notes in 2011 that begat Barrowmaze 1. Isn’t the first album by many of our favourite bands the best because they had the most time to work on them? The problem with all creative products is that you had your whole life up to that point to create that first thing. After that time speeds up and the creative window tightens up. They may never be as cutting edge as the first release but i’m damn happy that there was more.
Blah blah blah. I like Dr. G’s style of vanilla D&D (he is happy to hold that banner it would seem) and if I have to dig a little deeper or do some more work to get the same fully realized adventure out of newer stuff vs. BMC, well art imitates life.
There is nothing inherently wrong with vanilla D&D. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea but then again not everything has to be Deep Carbon Observatory or some edgy for the sake of edgy torture porn like most of what Lamentations of the Flame Princess puts out in order to be a good D&D adventure.
With regards to Dwarrowdeep, there’s such a thing as being critical of something that isn’t very good. People heap praise on G’s earlier work but this one looks to be a swing and a miss. What’s wrong with admitting that? It doesn’t mean that Greg’s next thing won’t be great just that this one isn’t. It happens. We need more critical thinking in this world instead of folks who simply buy everything from a particular vendor, praise it unilaterally and never admit when something misses the mark.
Well the rub is probably that many folks (myself included) decided to support the project at the KS level. So we look at the track record and make a decision.
This may well be a ‘swing and a miss’ and that would be a bummer and forces the early adopters to find utility in a flawed item. I have it, I am going to use the parts I like.
And so, once i have chewed on it and if I find it wanting out will come the scalpel (monsters, treasures, spells, NPCs minimally).
Critical thinking includes finding purpose and use out of things that as a whole are flawed and perhaps more importantly making individual decisions.
I don’t think anyone has been praising unilaterally but this board has been a whirligig of activity.
And I’ll be interested in play reports as to how it comes together. Whether the factions come to life or pieces begin to link up
I find mostly vanilla often works well- the odd moments shine out. All crazy all the time wears out quicker sometimes ime.
Critical thinking might also be a factor in not automatically backing every one of Greg’s (or anyone’s) kickstarters. I understand going by a good track record but sometimes that does result in getting a bit burned by a subpar product. As I said, it happens. No one is great all the time. Hopefully you will get some utility out of it but the fact that you have to work to do that indicates that the product isn’t as good as maybe it could have been.
I’m sort of in the middle here. I own all of Gillespie’s megadungeons. We’ve played (but not finished) parts of the first three and enjoyed them all. This would be my least favorite. It does feel more bland than the others. And the “DIY geomorphs” annoy me as well. I don’t mind having a few areas to expand on as I wish, but 40 sub-levels? After creating a couple I got bored with the process. As Bryce noted, if I wanted to do that, I could just break out my DMG and start rolling dice. If anything, just release that section as a separate product and add more flavor to this one.