2e - why you think it sucks, and why you're right

[The1True]

I had a really good time with 2.5, but yeah, we happily jumped ship the second 3.0 came along. My group are big fans of epic power gaming and man did Skills and Tactics provide that in fearsome abundance. Ah Cheapomatic Orb, I do miss thee.

I am WAY in the minority here, but Planescape was the most fun I've ever had at the gaming table. Rereading it now, I see the rails everywhere in those adventure modules, but they were training wheels for my group. The constant immersion in that stilted Victorian vocabulary and use of factional philosophies instead of alignment morality taught us to actually attempt to ROLE play and the timelines presented in every adventure taught me as a DM to take copious notes and arrive at every session thoroughly prepared and aware of how PC actions affected the actions of NPC's and the wider world around them. We had never encountered that level of depth before and it showed us how to be more rounded gamers moving forward.

and the artwork. oh my god.

But yeah, that forced GenX grunginess was pretty uch.

do I need to start a "Planescape ruled. Come at me bro." thread?

 

[The Heretic]

do I need to start a "Planescape ruled. Come at me bro." thread?

By all mean, YES.

 

[The Heretic]

I did admire how they left Sembia utterly unmapped so you could put your own spin on it, something that sadly they immediately violated in 3e.

Alas, that started several years before 3e. The Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover went into great detail about Sembia. Lying jerks.

Sidenote: Ed Greenwood was Canadian, and IIRC Amn and Sembia were both jabs at the US.

 

[The Heretic]

Well, remember, these are modules I read about in places like Dungeon of Signs and Grognardia but never read myself. Like some of the later modules in the B series, which I couldn't even read. Bloodstone Pass, Journey to the Rock, Night's Dark Terror, Temple of the Frog, that sort of thing.

Bloodstone? Oh I guess that was about the right time, wasn't it? Temple of the Frog I think was in that Blackmoor time travelling mishmash. I found one of the DA modules years later. Wasn't the worst thing in the world.

Temple of Elemental Evil was 1985 and I like the first few levels of that. I've never run it (except Hommlet), but I have gone through parts of it as a player.

ToEE was awesome! I ran my nephew and nieces through most of it. Lots of fun. I even got my nephew a copy of the ToEE video game, but he got frustrated with the Hommlet portion and went chaotic evil on the townsfolk.

(for those who haven't played the ToEE video game, you have to do a bunch of social quests in the town to get high enough level to even consider braving the moat house, or else you'll get TPK'ed by either the damn frogs or the bugbears and gnolls in the dungeon tripping and slaughtering you)

I might have a look at Isle of the Ape tonight, I've never read that one.

Oh. Well. That's an interesting one. Kind of like Isle of Dread for high level AD&D. Bryce would probably point to it as an example of how high level adventures don't work. It's a fascinating bit of work but it certainly isn't a G1.

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

Alas, that started several years before 3e. The Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover went into great detail about Sembia. Lying jerks.

Sidenote: Ed Greenwood was Canadian, and IIRC Amn and Sembia were both jabs at the US.

Yeah, most of the FR maps onto a rural Canadian kid in the 1970's fascination with the wider world. I think they eventually changed it, but Waterdeep, a giant cosmopolitan city, used to have the same coordinates on Toril that Toronto has on earth, and of course one of Toronto's folk etymologies used to be that the name meant "deep waters" or "where the trees grow from underwater" (the word that became the name actually means a complex of concepts related to a narrow river channel, good fishing, and a prosperous place). There's a lot of other little easter eggs scattered throughout the Realms if you're from Southern Ontario (like both Greenwood and I are).

 

[Beoric]

Yeah, most of the FR maps onto a rural Canadian kid in the 1970's fascination with the wider world. I think they eventually changed it, but Waterdeep, a giant cosmopolitan city, used to have the same coordinates on Toril that Toronto has on earth, and of course one of Toronto's folk etymologies used to be that the name meant "deep waters" or "where the trees grow from underwater" (the word that became the name actually means a complex of concepts related to a narrow river channel, good fishing, and a prosperous place). There's a lot of other little easter eggs scattered throughout the Realms if you're from Southern Ontario (like both Greenwood and I are).

So he made Toronto the centre of the campaign universe? Shocker.

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

So he made Toronto the centre of the campaign universe? Shocker.

(Rightly so )

 

[The1True]

By all mean, YES.

HA! ...no... My happy memories of Sigil can't take the inevitable savage beating.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

I suppose Planescape modules were fun to read, but not to try to run. Bruce Cordell, what'd he do? <looks at wikipedia> Return to the Tomb of Horrors, Return to White Plume Mountain? Eh? What would you consider to be the best of Bruce's work?

Cordell writes what are the module equivalent of summer blockbusters. Big, world-saving plot, sometimes dumb, but often with cool science-fantasy or S&S elements and clever oldschool dungeons. I liked Dawn of the Overmind and Return to the Tomb of Horrors quite a bit. I'd stay away from the other Return modules but that's me. I remember Die Vecna Die being fucking batshit insane in a really good way. I've reviewed quite a bit of his work on my blog so if your interested feel free.

Edit: Links.
Dawn of the Overmind
Return to the Tomb of Horrors (Pt. I)

 

[The Heretic]

Cordell writes what are the module equivalent of summer blockbusters. Big, world-saving plot, sometimes dumb, but often with cool science-fantasy or S&S elements and clever oldschool dungeons. I liked Dawn of the Overmind and Return to the Tomb of Horrors quite a bit. I'd stay away from the other Return modules but that's me. I remember Die Vecna Die being fucking batshit insane in a really good way.

Return to Tomb of Horrors was interesting. I have that one. I also have Return to White Plume Mountain which...wasn't that great. I found out later that he was originally working on a sci-fi module when he was called in to work on White Plume, so he combined the two. Blech.

I've reviewed quite a bit of his work on my blog so if your interested feel free.

I can't do that! Aren't you French or something?

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Return to Tomb of Horrors was interesting. I have that one. I also have Return to White Plume Mountain which...wasn't that great. I found out later that he was originally working on a sci-fi module when he was called in to work on White Plume, so he combined the two. Blech.

Yikes!

I can't do that! Aren't you French or something?

Only in agreeableness.

 

[The Heretic]

Yikes!

IIRC the 'plot' of the Return to White Plume Mountain revolved around a fungus (or something) that would infect people and make them think they were what's-his-name, the wizard from the original. I can't think of his name now. It's been a while.

Only in agreeableness.

That explains why you are sooooo mean to DP?

Oh yeah, you're Dutch. Dutch, French, same thing. Close enough for government work.

Your review of X2 Castle Amber gets two thumbs up from me. That's an awesome module. I was going to ask you, though, is Edgar Allen Poe not a thing in Europe? A lot of the rooms in that module, like the one you highlighted with the jester polymorphed into an ape, were lifted directly from the short stories of Edgar Allen Poe. But yes, that's a great module while you're in the castle itself. The Averoigne part tries something new, but mostly fails, and the end of the module, Stephen Amber's tomb, is a big letdown.

You should review module X3 The Curse of Xanathon. That has some interesting stuff in it for what the author was trying to do, but damn that module is a MESS.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

IIRC the 'plot' of the Return to White Plume Mountain revolved around a fungus (or something) that would infect people and make them think they were what's-his-name, the wizard from the original. I can't think of his name now. It's been a while.

Sounds about right. One of the good things Cordell did was introduce more Science Fantasy and Weird into DnD with many of his modules. You are thinking of Keraptis.

That explains why you are sooooo mean to DP?

Oh yeah, you're Dutch. Dutch, French, same thing. Close enough for government work.

Your review of X2 Castle Amber gets two thumbs up from me. That's an awesome module. I was going to ask you, though, is Edgar Allen Poe not a thing in Europe? A lot of the rooms in that module, like the one you highlighted with the jester polymorphed into an ape, were lifted directly from the short stories of Edgar Allen Poe. But yes, that's a great module while you're in the castle itself. The Averoigne part tries something new, but mostly fails, and the end of the module, Stephen Amber's tomb, is a big letdown.

You should review module X3 The Curse of Xanathon. That has some interesting stuff in it for what the author was trying to do, but damn that module is a MESS.

I'd be hard-pressed to explain the shift in tone. I am generally friendly but there's a way we interact that I think brings out the worst in us. I've resolved to give him a wide berth and we'll both be okay. I don't hold grudges.

Hahaha yeah it's like Mexicans and Americans ;P I love France honestly, great cuisine, great mountains, my father-in-law is french-canadian. There's an obstinate streak in there that I dig.

My thanks for your kind words r.e. my review. I actually know X3, and I remember loving the idea of an immortal villain you had to defeat via trickery but the rest of the module was a bit ho-hum. I'll put it on my giant list. I have some donations to do also, I always feel guilty when I put them off for a while but I make it pretty clear I don't do speed-work.

Dutch High School education is...pretty crap when it comes to foreign literature, honestly. Shakespeare? Nope. Dumas? Fuck no. Just grey and grim Dutch contemporary literature that makes you wish you were living in a Bradburian Dystopia where books were banned. Edgar Allen Poe is a name so lost in obscurity most Dutch People would be hard pressed to name him as the father of gothic horror, let alone having read one of his tales. I am currently on a horror bender and it's an embarassing gap so I'm sure I'll fill it after I am done with Arthur Machen and C.A. Smith.

 

[The Heretic]

Sounds about right. One of the good things Cordell did was introduce more Science Fantasy and Weird into DnD with many of his modules. You are thinking of Keraptis.

Keraptis! Yes. I was thinking it started with an A, but I guess it was only the liches that had names starting with A.

I'd be hard-pressed to explain the shift in tone. I am generally friendly but there's a way we interact that I think brings out the worst in us. I've resolved to give him a wide berth and we'll both be okay. I don't hold grudges.

Hahaha yeah it's like Mexicans and Americans ;P I love France honestly, great cuisine, great mountains, my father-in-law is french-canadian. There's an obstinate streak in there that I dig.

Good heavens, not like that! Americans are too solipsistic for that. No, they'd be complaining about each other, like for me it would be complaining about people from Iowa ("Idiots Out Wandering Around") and Texas.

My thanks for your kind words r.e. my review. I actually know X3, and I remember loving the idea of an immortal villain you had to defeat via trickery but the rest of the module was a bit ho-hum. I'll put it on my giant list. I have some donations to do also, I always feel guilty when I put them off for a while but I make it pretty clear I don't do speed-work.

X3 was trying something bold and new. An investigation, of sorts. Unfortunately it had no idea how to get there. I did like some of the weird ass decrees that the Duke was coming up with, like only allowing horses to be fed meat.

Dutch High School education is...pretty crap when it comes to foreign literature, honestly. Shakespeare? Nope. Dumas? Fuck no. Just grey and grim Dutch contemporary literature that makes you wish you were living in a Bradburian Dystopia where books were banned. Edgar Allen Poe is a name so lost in obscurity most Dutch People would be hard pressed to name him as the father of gothic horror, let alone having read one of his tales. I am currently on a horror bender and it's an embarassing gap so I'm sure I'll fill it after I am done with Arthur Machen and C.A. Smith.

You're Dutch education reminds me of the typical creative writing class here in the US. When I was in college I had delusions of grandeur about becoming a writer on the side. I took creative writing and the first thing they tell you is NO GENRE WRITING. Then they had us read all of these inspiring, example stories that were all about drunken middle class folk with ennui. Foo on them.

Clark Ashton Smith is one of my favorite writers. I partially blame Tom Moldvay and X2 for this. He's also rather obscure, so I was surprised you'd know him but not recognize all the Poe in Castle Amber. I swear every year in high school I had to read Cask of Amantillado. But several of his other stories were used to teach literary concepts, like the Tell-Tale Heart and the Masque of Red Death. And don't forget he invented the murder mystery with the Murders in Rue Morgue.

 

[The1True]

I liked Dawn of the Overmind and Return to the Tomb of Horrors quite a bit. I'd stay away from the other Return modules but that's me. I remember Die Vecna Die being fucking batshit insane in a really good way.

First of all, curse you for reviewing adventures that now cost a fortune on EBay. This better not turn out to be a buy low sell high scheme! (I'm thinking of the total scam that is Maze of the Blue Medusa in particular when I write this...)

I ran Return to the Tomb back in the day and thoroughly agree with your review. Return to the Keep on the Borderlands was pretty good too. Return to White Plume was garbage. I'm kind of curious if the Return to Against the Giants was any good.
I managed to squeeze all three of the Vecnas into one campaign and it was rad. I guess not all of the 2e supplements were such a dead loss afterall.

Come to think of it Labyrinth of Madness is still one of my favourites and that one goes further by being a functional high-level dungeon crawl which everyone seems to believe isn't a thing...

 

[PrinceofNothing]

First of all, curse you for reviewing adventures that now cost a fortune on EBay. This better not turn out to be a buy low sell high scheme! (I'm thinking of the total scam that is Maze of the Blue Medusa in particular when I write this...)

Are you saying that people will use flashy art and hype to sell overpriced products?!?

I ran Return to the Tomb back in the day and thoroughly agree with your review. Return to the Keep on the Borderlands was pretty good too. Return to White Plume was garbage. I'm kind of curious if the Return to Against the Giants was any good.
I managed to squeeze all three of the Vecnas into one campaign and it was rad. I guess not all of the 2e supplements were such a dead loss afteral

I'm pretty jealous. Tomb or Return to the Tomb are well designed in that they all but require the players, or at least the spellcasters, to have a very good grip of their capabilities. That's awesome but it also means you have to 'train' a group before they can do it. No one I currently game with has played enough AD&D to cope.

Come to think of it Labyrinth of Madness is still one of my favourites and that one goes further by being a functional high-level dungeon crawl which everyone seems to believe isn't a thing...

It's on my review list so stay tuned.

You're Dutch education reminds me of the typical creative writing class here in the US. When I was in college I had delusions of grandeur about becoming a writer on the side. I took creative writing and the first thing they tell you is NO GENRE WRITING. Then they had us read all of these inspiring, example stories that were all about drunken middle class folk with ennui. Foo on them.

Lol. No one reads contemporary 'literature' because its dreary, uninspired dreck about nothing, for no one, of academic interest only if you already know the history of writing, which these modern audiences do not. Cormac Mccarthy, Murakami and a handful of others excluded. They should teach children the oldest stories, the very basics first before moving on to all this stunt writing nonsense for degenerate intellectuals to pad themselves on the back. They should teach wannabe writers what the best stories are and tell you to master that form before you start experimenting. All these wannabe smartboys and rebels, trying to overthrow the Man and show you how clever they are, it produces crap. I rant about the same thing with Lotfp and the Artpunk movement, because its the same problem. Someone reads half of B2, goes 'dur hur orcs are old-fashioned look how creative I am' and makes something that tries to be cutting-edge but is a non-functional pile of wank or worse, 'ironically bad'.

Clark Ashton Smith is one of my favorite writers. I partially blame Tom Moldvay and X2 for this. He's also rather obscure, so I was surprised you'd know him but not recognize all the Poe in Castle Amber. I swear every year in high school I had to read Cask of Amantillado. But several of his other stories were used to teach literary concepts, like the Tell-Tale Heart and the Masque of Red Death. And don't forget he invented the murder mystery with the Murders in Rue Morgue.

I followed a weird, reversed path of discovery. I disliked modern literature but I loved SF since I read Dune, so I had a diet of nothing but A-list science fiction (Herbert, Simmons, Asimov, Van Vogt) and B/C-list (Feist, Goodkind, Moorcock) fantasy for a few years. I never touched Lord of the Rings. Eventually I started reading the odd literary and non-fiction work (Dickens, Nietzsche, Dumas) and got interested in pre -80s fantasy. Zelazny, Leiber, J.M. Harrison, Vance etc. Fantastic, stirring stuff. I'm starting to dip my toe into early fantasy and mythology only now (Lindsay, Beckford, Merrit), so Poe will absolutely be added to the list.

DnD becomes much richer and clearer as one reads more Appendix N.

 

[The1True]

Are you saying that people will use flashy art and hype to sell overpriced products?!?

I'm saying MoBM was printed in limited quantities, widely well regarded by many prominent bloggers and now sells for between $100-400 on EBay. After guy's dizzying fall from grace I lost interest but kept the EBay alerts checked out of a sense of morbid curiosity. There was a brief price dip to $80ish with the second printing, but prices are right back up there now. I'm guessing people are still reading those old reviews and seeking out hard copy. Some dudes made a lot of money on that (in relative OSR terms...) I guess now that I reread my words it seems like I'm implying a conscious effort to defraud our community of precious cash by some shadowy cartel of elite bloggers and creators. Obviously, I can't logically believe that, but it's still hard not to be a bit paranoid. Someone is definitely releasing those books one copy at a time at great profit.

I'm pretty jealous. Tomb or Return to the Tomb are well designed in that they all but require the players, or at least the spellcasters, to have a very good grip of their capabilities. That's awesome but it also means you have to 'train' a group before they can do it. No one I currently game with has played enough AD&D to cope.

As I said. We're powergamers, so it was almost certainly not done properly. Characters loaded down with 2.5e 'Skills and Powers' and 'Combat and Tactics' maggotry didn't exactly waltz through the place, but they definitely had less of a hard time. To further your disgust, I've run ToH modified for 3.5e and the Take 20 rule almost completely ruins the scenario (ditto for Mud Sorceror's Tomb).
The other effect of our rampant powergaming is we run campaigns where we level up on average once every month and a half. So we run through a full campaign arch every two-ish years. I hear your concern about training up your players; maybe the danger of leisurely progression is that campaigns/D&D groups fall apart and no one ever makes it past name level and gets any practice being a post-human, medieval superhero?

 

[TerribleSorcery]

The core of 2E was... okay, but you could see how bloated it was by that point. And the splatbooks. Good GOD THE SPLATBOOKS. Whoever signed off on all that shit (S&P, S&M, complete handbooks for everything, etc) should be lined up against the wall and shot.

 

[Johann]

But the splat book concept works: It sells lots of copies and ruins the game in short order, so you need a new edition! It's like planned obsolescence.

During 3e and 4e, I and my fellow players shelled out the money for splats, sometimes only for an unbalanced feat or two here and there, ostensibly legitimized by having the hardcover on hand. Good gracious, am I happy that these days are over...

 

[PrinceofNothing]

The core of 2E was... okay, but you could see how bloated it was by that point. And the splatbooks. Good GOD THE SPLATBOOKS. Whoever signed off on all that shit (S&P, S&M, complete handbooks for everything, etc) should be lined up against the wall and shot.

I'll take a cautious defensive position and say that Complete Book of Fighters and the Historical Handbooks were good if used in particular types of campaigns only but the Doom of D&D was including these things in the normal game where it was absolutely not warranted. I think Al-Quadim did it right; either go full on kits, or do not use kits at all.