The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
So yeah, everyone agrees that 2nd edition sucked, right? Or are there 2nd edition shippers out there that just aren't as visible as the 1e/5e lovers?
2e - why you think it sucks, and why you're right
- Thread starter The Heretic
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DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
I did like the peripherals for 2e - splatbooks and whatnot. I have a copy of Encyclopedia Magica, and it's cool as shit. Some of the modules were OK too.
But yeah, not a lot of 2e fanboys around here (I think? Maybe not vocal ones anyway).
But yeah, not a lot of 2e fanboys around here (I think? Maybe not vocal ones anyway).
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Yeah, I suppose that was true. There was a lot of dreck though, like the kits in the complete handbook, or skills and powers, etc.
The edition did some nice streamlining. Made weapon speed useful with initiative. Made the Bard* a standalone class. Made dragons actually fearsome. But then they did awful things like remove demons and devils, the assassin class, and half orcs.
What you talking about Willis? There were good 2e modules? <blink> Oh I suppose there were a few good Planescape ones...
* FYI in the other thread you mentioned how weird it was that the bard class had to 'become a druid'. Not exactly. IIRC bards were one of the three types of holy men of the ancient Celts, besides Druids and and....uh, I forget the third one. It was D&D that turned bard into 'minstrel class' and druid into 'nature priest'.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
NEVERMIND. I must be remembering this wrong or maybe the scholarship on this was poor.
Fan. Cut my teeth on it. By the end there was no recourse but to kill it since it was a splatbookey mess but 2e did a lot of good things. I'd say 2e over 1e. I mean who uses those Weapons vs AC tables *scoff*
Planescape modules were wannabe drama stuff with metaplot mostly. Most of Bruce Cordell's modules hold up, as does The Dancing Hut arguably. Monstrous Arcana was good shit.
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Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
When 2e came out we more or less blended it with 1e. A little of this and a little of that. I think some of us used one of the optional initiative variants, but I didn't like that much.
Some of the splatbooks were nice, especially Vikings, Celts and A Mighty Fortress. The kits were mostly redundant with houserules we already had.
I find to be unreadable even those modules that are generally accepted to be not bad. There may be decent content buried in there but I can't get to it.
Some of the splatbooks were nice, especially Vikings, Celts and A Mighty Fortress. The kits were mostly redundant with houserules we already had.
I find to be unreadable even those modules that are generally accepted to be not bad. There may be decent content buried in there but I can't get to it.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Well I'll be, there are more 2e fans than I thought there would be.
I can think of some pretty awful modules. Ones written for the Forgotten Realms especially (the Horde, some Moonshae crap where every magic item was a special magic item only usable by cultists of Bane/Cyric/whatever, etc)
Oh. That's probably why.
I'm curious, what are the names of the modules that are considered to be 'not bad'?
I can think of some pretty awful modules. Ones written for the Forgotten Realms especially (the Horde, some Moonshae crap where every magic item was a special magic item only usable by cultists of Bane/Cyric/whatever, etc)
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Bah! Maybe YOU'RE the heretic!
An abbreviated version of those tables appeared in the 2nd edition DMG. But yeah I don't think anyone used them. Why drag combat out to be longer than it needed to be.
I suppose Planescape modules were fun to read, but not to try to run. Bruce Cordell, what'd he do? <looks at wikipedia> Return to the Tomb of Horrors, Return to White Plume Mountain? Eh? What would you consider to be the best of Bruce's work?
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Welll Mallrat, now that you ask...
I suppose it's mostly for non-game related reasons. The ousting of Gary Gygax. Lorraine Williams. No demons or devils. Stupid stuff that was never playtested, like kits or Players Option:Skills and Powers.
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
2e did a great job with settings. I don't really like the core rules much (tho' I certainly played quite a bit of it back when I was young) but I still own things like the cloth map that came in the first Dark Sun boxed map, the hex acetate that came in the FR 2e boxed set, and a bunch of Planescape books that I raid for ideas and images once in a while.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Looking over my list of modules, I was thinking about a bunch of post 1985 1e modules. Yeah, I'm not aware of any decent 2e modules, whereas I can think of a few redeemable ones from the 3e and 4e period. EDIT: No, wait, I have heard that Firestorm Peak is decent.
I did like Darksun as a setting.
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Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
AHA!! This is going to be good!!!
ahh fuck..*throws up hands and walks away*
Nah, I hear you. I guess I consider myself more of a 1.5 guy. I played Basic, Expert, 1e, then 2e...never used Option books.
However, I loved the splat books with all the kits...I ate some of that stuff up. Some was stupid, some totally not balanced (hi elves), and other nitpicks, but I love them for 2 reasons: 1. It made my imagination soar. 2. It allowed the player to 'play the game' while not playing D&D....to explain further, I was always jealous of the DM because they got to dink around with books and create adventures, etc. and as a player I didn't get to do much. But with those splat books, for me it made creating characters a blast and I'd spend hours making characters. I also felt 2e gave players the 'green light' to come up with stuff to present to the DM to try...like new spells, new kits, etc. So 2e gave me more of a creative/imagination outlet than 1e, where I felt 1e had the rules and you had to follow them (or maybe because I was just a kid and it felt that way). And no....not all my characters were special snowflakes or whatever completely min/maxed...I liked them weak or have things challenging with some flaws...we never got pass level 7 as we would rather start over at level 1.
I even didn't mind Unearthed Arcana much although the cavalier and barbarian made me scratch my head a little bit....but all the news spells and magic items..cool stuff.
Now having said that...I look at 3e and above and suddenly felt overwhelmed with all the feats and stuff I can't even remember. I think it was too much because where 2e I felt I could explore options, suddenly 3e brought in more stuff--but it felt like rules, so it cramped my imagination. If that makes sense...
People always talk about how good the settings are in 2e. About a month ago, I finally bought Planescape and Spelljammer (still haven't read them yet) just to see what all the hub bub was about. I did like Forgotten Realms as a kid, but sorta over it. Is it weird that I try not to read too much RPG material because I don't want to subconsciously copy something when I publish? But I need something to hopefully blow my mind a little with different dimensions/planes..so took the plunge.
The adventures....sucked. I didn't like the forced storylines. Storylines in the background were fine, but they are much more powerful when the players WANT to be involved in the storyline instead of forced. I bought a few and then stopped and stuck with 1e adventures which I felt were far superior. However, I read an old 1e adventure recently and cringed (Slave Pits...)...so not sure I want to read them again to ruin my memories.
So I'm not going to put up much of an argument, but my main stance of why I like 2e....that for me at least, it gave me the 'green light' to blow up my imagination and try new shit.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
I think I have those hex acetates too. The setting itself was a disappointment, mostly. I was expecting a gazetteer like Greyhawk. Not what I got...
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Hmm. Were there any good 1e 1985 modules? I'm trying to remember. Maybe some of the I series or UK series were okay. Which ones were you thinking of?
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Well. I was going to bash 2e but I couldn't think of anything bad about the base system itself. Besides the lack of demons and devils. But then that was partially because before I even got to play D&D, an older kid on a Boy Scouts camping trip asked me to look through the Monster Manual II and find some monsters with low ACs and high hit dice for him to use with his game that night. I found the demons and devils and thought 'whoa, awesome!'. I even tried to make some of my own monsters that year, without even knowing what hit dice meant (I improvised, it means what you hit the monster on if you roll a d6). I came up with a robeast, the euryale, the stheno, the zaxxon, and a few other knock-offs. I think I have that folder still, somewhere.
Skills and Powers had some good stuff in it, but the ability scores ideas were AWFUL. Each ability was broken into two subscores. You could modify one to be two higher than your base roll, but the other had to go down by the same amount. And then of course all the stuff you wanted was in one, so it was wasn't balanced at all. Strength, for instance, put +to hit and +damage in the same subscore, so of course if you were a fighter you'd make that one higher and make the other subscore (endurance? stamina?) which held your weight limit lower. Con was the same. Hit point bonus on one side vs system shock roll? Pick the HP bonus. It might've even have been worse than that. I'll have to find my book.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Breaking this up...
That's cool that 2e opened up your imagination as a player. That works. As for what you're saying about 3e, I understand. I like a lot of what 3e did, but it definitely neutered the DM and made D&D more of a game
I was excited for Spelljammer but hated it once I got it. "This isn't space! This is just some weird dreamed up from the essay Gary had in the 1e DMG about your milieu!" I ended up selling it. A few years later I realized that it was actually kind of cool and that I should've kept. I've taken some of ideas from it as I've refined my own, personal campaign setting. Eventually I decided to make my campaign world flat. Of course that's bad if you're playing with physicist-in-training ("how do you have time zones if it's flat" "fine! it's convex. flat but non-euclidean!")
I approve!
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
Same. FR2e was mainly useful for me as a kid because it gave me a sense of what should be part of worldbuilding (e.g. a calendar) back near the start of my D&D career, and because of that hex acetate (back when there weren't custom print-shops on every corner). The setting itself left me utterly cold. I did admire how they left Sembia utterly unmapped so you could put your own spin on it, something that sadly they immediately violated in 3e.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Well, remember, these are modules I read about in places like Dungeon of Signs and Grognardia but never read myself. Like some of the later modules in the B series, which I couldn't even read. Bloodstone Pass, Journey to the Rock, Night's Dark Terror, Temple of the Frog, that sort of thing.
Temple of Elemental Evil was 1985 and I like the first few levels of that. I've never run it (except Hommlet), but I have gone through parts of it as a player.
I might have a look at Isle of the Ape tonight, I've never read that one.