2e - why you think it sucks, and why you're right

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I'll take a cautious defensive position and say that Complete Book of Fighters and the Historical Handbooks were good if used in particular types of campaigns only but the Doom of D&D was including these things in the normal game where it was absolutely not warranted. I think Al-Quadim did it right; either go full on kits, or do not use kits at all.
Lies...LIES I say! The kits were warranted to expand the game (imagination) for the players...not just the DM all the time.

Sure, it slowed down the game....and led to monsters having kits too to balance some things...but it was all in fun and ALL optional.

I will fight all of you!

Not really...but feeling fiesty.
 

bryce0lynch

i fucking hate writing ...
Staff member
I'm your huckleberry. J'accuse!

Malrex, you stand accused of loving 3e/4e builds, character min/max'ing, and the DM thinking that they need a kit for a monster.
How plead ye?


I liked the complete Mind Flayer and Beholder books. I don't remember the associated modules but those two ecology books were great. Otherwise, 2e is just 1e, or close enough? At least before kits are added?
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I'm your huckleberry. J'accuse!

Malrex, you stand accused of loving 3e/4e builds, character min/max'ing, and the DM thinking that they need a kit for a monster.
How plead ye?


I liked the complete Mind Flayer and Beholder books. I don't remember the associated modules but those two ecology books were great. Otherwise, 2e is just 1e, or close enough? At least before kits are added?
Haha...I like the complete kit books for inspiration mainly not the min/maxing and I got no control over my DM (but what characters can do, monsters can do as well usually in his world)...so I plead not guilty. I mean, I made a librarian mage with the most useless spells I could think of and my group hated me...so def. not in it for the min/max overpowered uberness.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Haha...I like the complete kit books for inspiration mainly not the min/maxing and I got no control over my DM (but what characters can do, monsters can do as well usually in his world)...so I plead not guilty. I mean, I made a librarian mage with the most useless spells I could think of and my group hated me...so def. not in it for the min/max overpowered uberness.
Annoying the other players is FUN. Once I had my gnome cleric/thief tie the fighter's shoe laces together while we were in a tavern. He wasn't too happy when he got up and tripped. The DM enjoyed it though.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Annoying the other players is FUN. Once I had my gnome cleric/thief tie the fighter's shoe laces together while we were in a tavern. He wasn't too happy when he got up and tripped. The DM enjoyed it though.
I've interacted with a handful of DMs online who disallow gnomes in their campaigns because players always seem to want to play them as annoying pains in the ass. Gnome bards are perceived as the worst offenders.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I've interacted with a handful of DMs online who disallow gnomes in their campaigns because players always seem to want to play them as annoying pains in the ass. Gnome bards are perceived as the worst offenders.
Kender. The Ewoks of the D&D multiverse.
fuck. kender.
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
I've interacted with a handful of DMs online who disallow gnomes in their campaigns because players always seem to want to play them as annoying pains in the ass. Gnome bards are perceived as the worst offenders.
I'm one of those DMs. I really hate gnomes. They just strike me as irredeemably goofy. 4e nearly turned me around on them by adding a few neat visual details (the all-black eyes) and emphasising their inhumanity / connection to the fey, but IIRC as the edition went on they stuck less rigorously to that. Now they're just the elvish equivalent of a halfling, another species I'm pretty mixed on.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I'm one of those DMs. I really hate gnomes. They just strike me as irredeemably goofy. 4e nearly turned me around on them by adding a few neat visual details (the all-black eyes) and emphasising their inhumanity / connection to the fey, but IIRC as the edition went on they stuck less rigorously to that. Now they're just the elvish equivalent of a halfling, another species I'm pretty mixed on.
As a gnome in real life, I am offended by this comment. Thpppt.

Gnomes have always been interesting to me, I don't know why. Pathfinder also has an interesting take on gnomes. They were fey who decided to stay on the prime, and they have to keep their lives interesting or they'll get a magical disease called the Bleaching. If it doesn't kill them, they turn into Bleachlings, somber, humourless gnomes.

Tinker gnomes and Kender *are* trash, however.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I'm planning to do a gnome city or at least a very large town some day (year).
I'm not a huge fan but I think there is a lot to be explored with them. They have become more annoying than faerie in my opinion.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Eberron gnomes are taught from the cradle to lie and scheme for social position, and engage in any plot or subterfuge short of violence to get what they want. Lying comes as naturally as breathing, and what a gnome says they want and what they actually want are unlikely to be the same thing (unless being open is the deception). The most terrifying words a gnome can speak are, "I can get that for you, I just need a small favour..."

The gnomes decided it was reasonable to police themselves with a secret police force, accountable to no one, that employs numerous assassins with a license to threaten, maim or kill anyone who perpetrates violence or does anything to threaten their sovereignty, social or political order.

Which they are all very comfortable with, since where the line is drawn is crystal clear to them. However the gnome homeland is probably one of the most dangerous places an adventurer can visit, although there are usually warnings before outright assassination. It will start with a whispering wind or message warning them that what they are planning is a very bad (and how did they know what you were planning anyway), and maybe escalate to a debilitating but probably not deadly poison in the PC's drink.

I'm actually kind of ambivalent about them, because I think writing adventures for the gnome homeland would be a lot of work. But they are a far cry from kender and tinker gnomes.
 

bryce0lynch

i fucking hate writing ...
Staff member
I wanted to run a Spelljammer campaign where you traveled around wiping out Kender, Tinker Gnomes, etc.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Read the Wikipedia artle on Kender. Umm...these are hobbits. No distinction really.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I don't really mind tinker gnomes...I'm assuming these are the ones from Dragonlance where they mess with mechanical things? I don't really remember them, but I kinda like the idea that gnomes mess with stuff and 'tinker' with metal parts and whatnot. I don't think it needs to be annoying. Having gnomes that tinker with things and build things makes more sense to me than a spaceship and laser guns lying around...just saying. But tinker gnomes should be one part of gnomes or a subrace...where another subrace is the more faerie gnomes...that embrace nature, elves and the woods and dominate the stumps, barrows, root caverns....being a buffer between elves and the deep digging dwarves.

But maybe the hate for gnomes is so deep.....which is why we keep seeing another 'ancient dwarven mines' to explore or 'dwarven ruins' adventures. I'd like to see more elvish ruins or halfling catacombs adventures....zomething zifferent!!
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
You all realize that Gnomes/Kender are only as annoying as the player playing them, yes?
I do think that each species comes with a set of associated tones, themes, and affordances that both draw players interested in those themes, as well as encouraging them to realise them in play. Kender are like someone leaving a sharp knife out knowing there are kids running around. You don't blame the kids for cutting themselves playing with the knife, you blame whoever left it out where they could grab it.
 
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