2e - why you think it sucks, and why you're right

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Aha! I finally figured out how to get some use out of this!

One day when I don't feel like DMing, I'll give each player a CR 30 monster (Cthulhu, Pazuzu, etc) to run, and then we'll have a battle royale to see which is the last one left standing.
Didn't WotC already do something like that in Out of the Abyss?
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Didn't WotC already do something like that in Out of the Abyss?
Not quite. I think that was the PCs against avatars/proxies/whatevertheywerecalled of all of the demon lords.

This would be a Clash of the Titans, Cthulhu fighting Pazuzu fighting Mephistopheles fighting Varklops (a Kaiju). Each PC would control a CR 30 unique monster, in a battle to the death.
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
My friends and I, back in the mid-2000s, would do that but with lower level monsters or monstrous groups drawn from the 3.5 MM on game nights when everyone got too inebriated. We'd say "Everyone pick CR 9" or whatever, someone would draw the battlemap, and we'd spend an hour or two with night hags wailing on trolls wailing on whatever.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I seem to remember the odd time someone would play a monster as a PC. Never lasted long, its not like they could level easily.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Do I need to know which feats Cthulhu took, or what his skill in Jump is?
It's unlikely you'll need to know his Jump, but there's a solid possibility that you would need to know his Sense Motive/Bluff/Intimidate/Swim etc. But yeah yeah, those stat blocks are ridiculous. As I illustrated above though, that's fine in a BBEG encounter where it's more of a tactical than an exploratory situation and you can make a one or two-page splash. I don't need to know the Deep One minion's Cha score though...
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
2e's campaign settings were good, but would have been better if they'd been more consistent in presentation. I'm amazed after all the work that went into them that they never produced a standardised "box set" inventory. My dream campaign setting package includes things like the cloth map from the 1st Dark Sun Boxed set, the hex acetate from the 2e FR boxed set, the campaign-specific monstrous compendium supplement like in Planescape, a campaign-setting specific dungeon master's guide, a player's guide to the setting (with the FR and the DS versions of this being the best examples), and a DM's guide (IMHO Land of Fate's is the best of these).
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
The problem with TSR's 2E campaign settings was that there were too many of them.
This. It was the company saying "fuck it, people will buy this shit just to read it". There wasn't a way to really run campaigns in all those settings, or support all those settings with modules. The settings usually came with distinct quirks that made modules only-sorta usable outside of the setting.

Yes, you could convert them, or rip the bloodline-related mechanics and "plot" out of a birthright module to use in dragonlance or dark sun, or whatever, but that's not really ideal. And it didn't work.

It's not really possible to do quirky on a large commercial scale. They'd have been better off making a quasi-indy, "boutique" label where the per-unit prices were high enough to support the line selling less copies. Yeah, the people who really wanted to center their campaign around birthright might bitch, but quirky tastes lose economies of scale.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
It's not really possible to do quirky on a large commercial scale. They'd have been better off making a quasi-indy, "boutique" label where the per-unit prices were high enough to support the line selling less copies.
They should do this! I mean, I guess DM's Guild is sort of this to a lesser degree, but something significantly more professional with correspondingly high prices. Like Games Workshop's specialty shop uh, Forge World?
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
One day when I don't feel like DMing, I'll give each player a CR 30 monster (Cthulhu, Pazuzu, etc) to run, and then we'll have a battle royale to see which is the last one left standing.
Fuck that might not be a bad idea. Like Boot Hill but with Kaiju. Large amounts of hit points, destroyable terrain, a bestiary filled with nothing but soldiers, tanks, planes and the X-1000.
 

Johann

*eyeroll*
If more players could enjoy that creativity while remaining detached from losing the work suddenly, I wouldn't be bothered with it.

When I say that a recognized problems with DMs is the tendency where, if they bothered to create it, the players will experience it - that their creativity is unsatisfied unless it is used at the table - the same problem arises in players who invest lots of time in characters outside of play: the attachment ramps up unbalanced from play, to where the attachment exceeds the survival likelihood. And if the character bites it the player takes it hard; now there's a feeling of "wasted time" (which is the same mental hump as a DM who feels their dungeon is wasted unless they can see players go through it).
That's a nice observation. Creating a complex backstory or genealogy for one's character is not an optional bonus activity in a lethal campaign - it's downright problematic. I'm happy if or when my players spend more time on detailing their stronghold or the particulars of their adventuring company's contract etc., as that's more likely to last.
 

Johann

*eyeroll*
I'm sorry that I egged you on a few months ago, DP and Prince. I only saw that the exchanges here contain a lot of ribbing, but apparently there was a bitter undercurrent for some of you. I was blind and apologize for whatever little part I played.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Johann, no harm, no foul on your part in my book. Sometime things spiral out of control. Miscommunication, thy name is internet. It's a classy thing to apologize, but you have nothing to apologize about. Some folks just get their back up in a debate.

Anywho...there's a snarcastic little post over at Monsters and Manuals about the Shadow monster entry in the 2e MM.

It prompted me to look through it for the first time (I owned the 1e MM & FF, but that's it...until recently some S&W monster books.).
The fella in the comments is 100% right. The illustrations and format of this book is very, very, very, VERY bad. Yikes!

Case and point: Look at this dapper young bachelor, know in the posh circles about town simply as "The Bugbear". We see him here in a famous portrait by the Dutch Master, Lamebrandt, lounging in his all-white parlor before heading out to the Ball. (Please take note: he is wearing his "party ears" and slippers! How fashionably MON-STROUS!)
TheBugbear.jpg

This cute little fella is a Beholder. He is in a real pickle. Not only has he lost his mommy, but he also needs to go to the potty...really, really bad. Will you help him?
TheBeholder.jpg
Do you know why they call him "the Death Tyrant", because once you let him into your heart---he'll love you to death!
Awww...

As a parting shot --- the one-monster-per-page format sucks. Big time.
 
Last edited:

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
Ummm, the original AD&D Monster Manual is the very definition of bad art. I believe some of the best pieces in it come from "Mikey - age 9"

That 2e bugbear is not great, but compared to this?
3abbef04cd1a635cf118480ed5291a75.jpg

I mean, what is that? A goblin in a tactical vest? A gremlin wearing a quilt?

And then to call the 2e beholder bad when it's predecessor was THE poster boy for shitty early art:
Beholder_1E.jpg

This is what happens when you leave a radioactive volleyball out in the sun too log. This is what happens when it comes time to fill your new Monster Manual with art, but the print deadline snuck up on you, so you just crib every doodle you've made in the margins of your 9th grade English class notebook and call it a day.

Scratch that, the stoned OG beholder was worse:
Beholder_0E_2TH.jpg

The 2e art is weaker than modern art, but come on now, let's not act like it's the low bar for D&D art.
 
Last edited:

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
The 1e monsters at least (for the pen/ink line style) learn towards scary.

The 2e "monsters" lean heavily towards fairy. Ren fair, all the way. Like the removal of demons, everything past the Easley cover is toothless and neutered.

T. DiTerlizzi's pencils are actual quite good...but the style is so light and airy-fairy. The all white backgrounds were a colossal blunder.

I'd take the stoner/1e beholder any day...and (especially) the 1e bugbear. Way more evocative and weird to my eyes. (Honestly, that OD&D beholder has always creep-ed me out. Seriously.) The 1e MM, all the way. How can you (a graphics art guy), not see it's worth? Simple, yes---but they tapped into something mythic with style.

Pretty sure 2e was the low bar....it's in that "uncanny valley".

Vampire
2e (safe)....................................1e (deadly)
Vampire.2e.jpgVampire.1e.jpg
Literally toothless.
 
Last edited:

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
The primary goal of MM art has not really been to convey a sense of evocation or to build atmosphere around the creatures, but simply to show what the monster looks like, hopefully depicted in a way that it can easily be described to the players. The MM is meant to catalogue foes and provide description and mechanics, not to inspire the encounters themselves. That was never the intention that artists were working under when they were drawing, and so they didn't shape their art to reflect it. They are technical pieces of art - more utilitarian, which suits something called a "Manual". When the pendulum swings the other direction, you get the art-punk scribbles that are Fire on the Velvet Horizon and its ilk - inspirational as hell, but good luck using it at the table without a bunch of prep.

Your vampire picture comparison is a good example of that. Yes, the second picture looks like more like a vampire and evokes a horror vibe in you, the DM reader, but all the players will ever get is your description of it. They don't get to see either picture.

I can however more easily describe that 2e vampire in a gameable way to my players in a session: "a fellow of noble bearing draped in a violet cloak, he steadies himself with a walking stick and squints at you from beneath a judgmental brow". Hell, it's just a stand-in picture to show that vampires can look like a normal person (that's their deal, hiding in plain sight, feasting on the innocent). Is it a vampire or a man? Not sure, but it certainly explains why he can walk around with normal society, and leaves room for my players to dance with the encounter.

The 1e description would be "a pale man with a pronounced widows' peak hisses at you from behind his tall-collared cloak, fangs bared". Players hear that and go "ah, a vampire!". If I describe that to my players, they just attack on sight. No wonder, no mystery, no evocative scene - just "here's what you see", and in this case, it's obviously a vampire, and so obviously not surprising when it lunges at some unwary player's neck, and likewise not surprising when the players immediately go for their silvered weapons and garlic. Everyone knows what vampires are and everyone knows what the stereotypical vampire looks like; the art is superfluous, and it's job at that point is to exist because all the other entries have pictures.

The other 2e vampire? Not so much. I see a full picture of a person I can describe to the players, but also I understand that vampires are meant to be indistinguishable from normal people, and so can go ahead to further describe other vampires, or to change the look of this one that doesn't end up breaking the intent of the creature in the game. Much more useful art for me to have, in that regard.

I suppose the difference between you and I are how we employ our MM - I use it as a reference Manual, and you are using it as an idea-generator.
 
Last edited:

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I suppose the difference between you and I are how we employ our MM - I use it as a reference Manual, and you are using it as an idea-generator.
Yes.

...and really? You'd prefer to look of the 2e vampire pic? Really? Are you being honest with me?
 
Last edited:

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
It's not about which I prefer to look at - it's about which is most useful for me to see in a Manual alongside the creature entry. If I wanted to look at pretty pictures, I'd buy a picture book, not a Monster Manual. It'd certainly be cheaper.

But if it were about which is nicest to look at... well, stoner beholder is not exactly a pretty sight, no matter how much he inspires you squeen.
 
Top