2e - why you think it sucks, and why you're right

[squeen]

The stoner behold is so alien --- you imagine it would dispassionately suck out your eyeball without altering its placid expression.

It's weird. Weird is scary.

I will now break my own forum politeness rule now and target you (DP) with a personal attack ---> you are one kooky dude.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

If seen in a vacuum the 0e beholder is alien, sure. But if you already know what a beholder is, and you've seen current art of a beholder (plentiful in this day and age), then you can't help but laugh at how primitive the OG beholder looks comparatively. The thing looks like it's going to bump into me like a balloon and then just float there drooling... it looks like I could bat it away with a good swat. It looks like it's about to fall asleep. Hardly scary.

 

[squeen]

Someone else liked it, they put it on the cover...
(shiver)

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

I think 2e's monster art was its best in the campaign-specific supplements. Ravenloft, Planescape, and Dark Sun all had well-done art that was evocative and tonally-appropriate for each setting.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Someone else liked it, they put it on the cover...
(shiver)

They also wrote everything on typewriters and published out of a kitchen... the early days of the game aren't exactly full of "optimal" applications.

 

[squeen]

Current (5e) art is pretty darn good. A bit too character focused for me, but top notch.

But maybe you are right, WotC should consider mandating typewriters or long-hand for a couple of months to get back in touch with the primal D&D roots.

...with the pandemic, they are probably already back in their kitchens.

Agree with Pseudoephedrin-e (whose avatar's dandling 'e' drives me batty), the 2e art was better elsewhere.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

I'm sorry that I egged you on a few months ago, DP and Prince. I only saw that the exchanges here contain a lot of ribbing, but apparently there was a bitter undercurrent for some of you. I was blind and apologize for whatever little part I played.

That's alright. No one was hurt and we do it to ourselves. Added casual Behir and shitty 1e elf to the pyre.

 

[Beoric]

Case and point: Look at this dapper young bachelor, know in the posh circles about town simply as "The Bugbear". We see him here in a famous portrait by the Dutch Master, Lamebrandt, lounging in his all-white parlor before heading out to the Ball. (Please take note: he is wearing his "party ears" and slippers! How fashionably MON-STROUS!)
View attachment 598

This cute little fella is a Beholder. He is in a real pickle. Not only has he lost his mommy, but he also needs to go to the potty...really, really bad. Will you help him?
View attachment 599

Your bugbear was better, until you turned him into not-a-bugbear (which was also good, but not a bugbear).

That beholder could be pals with your scaredy-orc. I think I may have to make scaredy-orc and his miniature beholderkin pal into recurring (if they survive first contact with the PCs) NPCs in my campaign.

 

[squeen]

I think I may have to make scaredy-orc and his miniature beholderkin pal into recurring (if they survive first contact with the PCs) NPCs in my campaign.

You are a bad, bad man.

 

[The Heretic]

It prompted me to look through it for the first time (I owned the 1e MM & FF, but that's it...until recently some S&W monster books.).
The fella in the comments is 100% right. The illustrations and format of this book is very, very, very, VERY bad. Yikes!

As a parting shot --- the one-monster-per-page format sucks. Big time.

That was the Monstrous Manual, wasn't it? 2nd edition didn't start with monster manuals. Instead they had "Monstrous Compendiums". Monsters would go one per page, three hole punch, and as you bought more compendiums to add to your binder you could put everything in alphabetical order.

Yeah, it didn't work out so well in practice. I was happy when the Monstrous Manual came out, it was a worthy replacement.

As for the one monster per page format, at the time it seemed to be a revelation. You'd be less likely to be completely baffled by a monster, like you would be with the Tirapheg from the Fiend Folio. Now it's more like meh. Some monsters can use the extra information (ie Githyanki/zerai in Fiend Folio). Others don't need it. And the Ecology section was always useless.

3rd edition seemed to have introduced my pet peeve. "This is an ambush predator". *puke* Followed close behind by "these monsters act as shock troops" (but that at least came from Gary with the Bearded Devil).

 

[The Heretic]

But if it were about which is nicest to look at... well, stoner beholder is not exactly a pretty sight, no matter how much he inspires you squeen.

He? That stoner beholder definitely looks like a she to me, and she looks like she wants to seduce you.

 

[squeen]

...and shitty 1e elf to the pyre.

View attachment 609

Those poor elves. Gary must of really hated Tolkien.

 

[Beoric]

I believe he hated Tolkien's estate, for handing his ass to him over copyright infringement. Before that he liked Tolkien well enough to rip him off, and LotR is in Appendix N.

 

[EOTB]

Because TSR renamed halflings and treants?

I don't believe Tolkien's estate ever contacted anyone. That would be the dude who bought the merchandising rights for a song from an author who didn't understand the profit potential.

 

[Beoric]

Because TSR renamed halflings and treants?

I don't believe Tolkien's estate ever contacted anyone. That would be the dude who bought the merchandising rights for a song from an author who didn't understand the profit potential.

Maliszewski talks about this on Grognardia.

Here is another source, quoting Gygax, and coming to a different understanding than I have of the phrase "on behalf of the tolkien [sic] Estate."

 

[The Heretic]

I have an idea! We should have a group project to flesh out all of the other <sensory organ> tyrants, and we can have Squeen draw the resultant monsters.

I'll start with the Nose Tyrant
Frequency: Very Rare
#Appearing: 1
Armor Class: 2
Move: 12" (A)
Hit Dice: 45-75 hp (14 HD)
#Attacks: 1+Special
Damage/Attack: 2-8
Special Attacks: See Below
Special Defenses: Immune to Illusions
Magic Resistance: Nil
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Treasure Type: D
Psionics: Nil

The Nose Tyrant appears similar to a ball of noses. Each nose has a special attack, usable once per round:
1: Snot ball (save vs breath weapon or slip and fall prone; deals 3-12 acid damage)
2: Booger (roll a range attack, does 2-8 damage on a hit)
3: Communication Pheromone (this nostril releases a pheromone that allows the Nose Tyrant to communicate telepathically with all intelligent beings within 60 feet)
4: Mind Control Pheromone (save vs. charm or fall under the control of the Nose Tyrant as if by a Charm Monster spell)
5: Olfactory detection (this nostril grants the monster the ability to detect objects and beings in the vicinity via scent)
6: Snot Strand (range attack to 30'. A creature hit by this snot strand must make a save vs petrification or being entangled by the snot. The strand connects to the Nose Tyrant and can be pulled in 10' per round. The strand is AC -2 and can take 8 hp before being severed)
7: Bulbous nose (this nose is used to make bludgeoning melee attacks)

Ideas for the other noses? Maybe a snot cone? 3-12 acid damage, save vs breath weapon for half damage?

 

[squeen]

Brilliant! -- We'll have to see about the drawing...because...err...deadlines (in which case I nominate DP and/or @The1True)

How can you overlook in this time of mass infection?: Sneeze = gust of wind + chance of disease

 

[The Heretic]

Brilliant! -- We'll have to see about the drawing...because...err...deadlines (in which case I nominate DP and/or @The1True)

How can you overlook in this time of mass infection?: Sneeze = gust of wind + chance of disease

Oh shoot, I forgot about that one. Sneeze would push the target away and maybe knock them prone. And also cover them with that nasty, acid snot.

 

[squeen]

Maliszewski talks about this on Grognardia.

Here is another source, quoting Gygax, and coming to a different understanding than I have of the phrase "on behalf of the tolkien [sic] Estate."

I enjoyed your links, and it sent me further down the Grognardia rabbit hole.

He's what I encountered:

With respect to some of our back-and-forth about orcs (as PCs/humanoids vs. monsters)
Orckish ODDities

On the topic of 2e and settings I found this set of classifications germain
The Ages of D&D

Lastly, a more theroretical notion in his retrospective of N1, which I think pertains to Adventure Design:

Against the Cult of the Reptile God provides no "scenes" or set pieces or much of anything in the way of a plot beyond the one the characters create by interfering with the activities of the Reptile Cult. The closest the modules comes to that is a section detailing the activities of the cult independent of their own. Orlane is not a static environment and the cult does not simply stand in place waiting for the characters to come looking for them. One activity in which they might engage is kidnapping the characters, should they stay at a certain inn within the village, in which case one or more of them might wind up imprisoned or enthralled by the naga. Even so, this is a far cry from the heavy-handed story-driven approach seen in later AD&D modules.

The approach Niles adopts throughout is one I've come to appreciate more as the years have worn on. He trusts the players to figure out what's happening in Orlane and to act accordingly, just as he trusts the DM to be able to handle the various moving parts of the local situation without the need for explicit instructions on how to do so. N1 may be a beginning level module but it nevertheless doesn't treat its readers like children.

In my mind this is similar to the "puzzles with no known solution, locks without keys" train of thought for world creation. Just set the table and see what unfolds. Akin to Malrex's favorite "Trust the DM", I assert "Trust the Players (too)".

Lastly, (somewhere) he makes the point that Prince's beloved Dark Sun setting (2e) was an attempt at recreating Burrough's Barsoom.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Lastly, (somewhere) he makes the point that Prince's beloved Dark Sun setting (2e) was an attempt at recreating Burrough's Barsoom.

That I can believe in part. Dark Sun has all the goofy names for everything and the desert filled with alien creatures feels kind of Barsoomy. Silt horrors, Braxxat, no Dragons, psionics, vampiric Cacti, Nomad Elves, Steel is worth 10.000 times as much or something, pretty cool for 2e. All the adventures are supposedly trash, so thats a bit of a bummer.

I have an idea! We should have a group project to flesh out all of the other <sensory organ> tyrants, and we can have Squeen draw the resultant monsters.

Anti-magic Sneeze. Prismatic Snot. Well do men fear the power of the Nose Tyrant and its even more hideous cousins.