The state of Post-OSR content

[PrinceofNothing]

I think y'all are sliding from the main line of the argument by going into the terminology. The operative question is; Prince, is the onerous burden of facilitating social interaction and the overal enjoyment of the group among the tasks of the GM, or must he restrict himself solely to adjudicating in game actions according to the rules of the game and his own judgement? The answer is yes, the GM must, by hook or by crook, set a social framework within which the players can operate, and that includes boundaries, norms, etc. etc. although this action can be delegated if the group is well conditioned. The question of leadership becomes obvious when you see or hear tales of a GM without authority and the disasters that generally befall them.
There is a reason GM's introduce players and not the reverse.

 

[squeen]

I agree with you @Beoric that the parts of Smolensk's article where he talks about "getting in your face" for jerk behavior at his table (for players disrespecting other players), is off-putting to me only in the sense that he (in writing) seems too gun-ho about it.

Looking back at my original group, I thought it helped that our DM was a few years older than the rest of the players. Similarly, when I started with my kids. The "authority figure" mantle helps keep things on-track IMO. The DM, by function, needs to be somewhat separated from "the gang".

Clearly Gygax was both the social Leader and DM in Lake Geneva circles.

Does that make the DM a leader? Or a manager---I don't pretend to know the difference. I think of managers as organizers. I think of leaders as someone who can right the ship when chaos ensues. If you are the CEO you are expected to lead---if you are Middle Management, you are expected to keep your head down and grease the wheels?

The article is called The-DM-Eats-Last. There's something to the Leader-as-servant idea that I think diffuses your (Beroic) objection that the DM can only manage.

On a non-D&D note, the Marvel Silver Age artist John Byrne (X-men, Fantastic Four, Alpha Flight, Avenegers, etc.), writes in his forum how Marvel started in the late 80's and 90's to undermine all of their leader-types. The zeitgeist was just against all authority figures---funny that should come to comics a generation later than the 1960's.

Perhaps it's not a coincidence that the fear (and redistribution) of the DM's power happened in that period too.

 

[Beoric]

I agree with you @Beoric that the parts of Smolensk's article where he talks about "getting in your face" for jerk behavior at his table (for players disrespecting other players), is off-putting to me only in the sense that he (in writing) seems too gun-ho about it.

The "jerk behaviour" he referenced was speaking or breaking the tension when tension rises in combat, and I have interacted with Smolensk enough to know that he really is a thin-skinned, in-your-face asshole who revels in dishing it out but takes his marbles and goes home in the face of polite disagreement. No, I'm not exaggerating.

I agree that part of a DM's job is to manage social interactions at the table, but squeen's original point was in favour of the "tough love" DM. I think having the capacity to be firm when necessary is probably a necessary quality where the group requires it, but I think Smolensk runs to the "DM as petty tyrant" end of the scale and I can't endorse his posts as examples to be emulated.

Something Smolensk and the similar-but-not-as-bad Scott Rehm have in common is that they only DM. I have long believed (and my RL experience supports this) that DMs who never play tend to be jerks. I think at least some of them DM because they want the control, and refuse to play is someone else's game because they don't like to give up control - and perhaps lack skills at compromise or social interaction that are necessary as a player but they don't feel they have to address in their role as DM God-Boss. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that has been my experience; the people I prefer to play with are usually good on both sides of the screen.

I also think that DMing can be learned, and that learning to DM will make you a better player. I feel that one of the great evils perpetrated by Critical Role is that it gives players the impression that they aren't smart or creative enough to DM, which is usually bullshit. It may have got more people playing but it gets less people DMing. New players nowadays seem to completely miss that stage where you are doing stupid gonzo shit because nobody told you that you can't, when all you needed to try your hand at DMing was an idea. It's a damned shame.

I first played when I was 10. I think the first dungeon I made was an Appendix A + C hodgepodge when I was 11. Nobody told me I couldn't DM, in fact the DMG told me I could. Now they don't even recommend the game until you are 12. I gather my oldest kid has played with maybe a couple of dozen people. and only 3 or 4 of them have ever DMed or have any interest in DMing. Maybe its a culture thing: Trad is a lot more work to run, and with OC/Neo-Trad I really wonder what's in it for the DM. But I really feel like the game lost something when DMs came to be seen as a skilled elite.

 

[EOTB]

I don't know that I would make that a rule at my table either, but I don't have a problem with idiosyncratic DMs - especially if they're upfront about their requirements. I may not play; but if I do play then I accept it. In my opinion the DM has the privilege of putting "no green M&Ms" in the social contract - whatever the green M&M is to that DM. So long as they're getting players anyway.

To put it another way, to say that "rule: don't talk when the tension is rising" is wrong to impose is just as absolute as imposing it. The other side of the equation is dictating instead. I can think of people who would likely enjoy such a rule; people who seem non-plussed when the Monty Python joke is thrown out in a non-humorous situation.

There is no wrong way to DM if players show up; there are myriad "best" ways to DM, because each DM has a best way and will think its the best and advocate for it. I will, for instance, always advocate for strong leadership in the DM chair. Knowing this will keep some potential players from desiring my game, but attracting others.

 

[squeen]

The "jerk behaviour" he referenced was speaking or breaking the tension when tension rises in combat, and I have interacted with Smolensk enough to know that he really is a thin-skinned, in-your-face asshole who revels in dishing it out but takes his marbles and goes home in the face of polite disagreement. No, I'm not exaggerating.

Sounds awful.

 

[grodog]

I have to disagree with that. The DM is the leader. When the social dynamic at the table goes to shit, players expect the DM to right the ship.

A lot of people do not understand the concept of the leader-servant. That's what a DM is. But make no mistake, the DM is the leader of that group of people. That doesn't mean the DM directs the micro. And the players desire the DM in that position. If they don't then that DM is not a leader, he is just a caddy.

That is a management function which requires mediation or adjudication skills. While arguably this can benefit from leadership skills (most social interactions can), they are not strictly necessary to the role. The DM has de jure authority granted by the rules and de facto power stemming from his right to refuse to run a game for somebody. He can apply those without being inspirational or conveying his vision.

But in general I think you can say that managers manage and leaders lead. Leaders have a vision of where they want to do and a variety of social skills that make their fellows want to go there with them. Leaders can lead even if they have no power, and in general (I can't off hand think of any exceptions) they make their own authority.

I think that the DM's role as referee/facilitator of the game this is a critical aspect of RPG game play (perhaps even the most-important, overall), and that both @EOTB and @Beoric are correct within the scopes that they've defined. I think that both scopes are also too narrow as defined:

- The DM certainly invests the most time in the game in prep, but player commitment is equally critical to the game's success: DM prep time grants the DM authority about the game (setting/campaign/adventure/whatever) that they've created, but not necessarily leadership---ideally the leadership comes from the players---who are hopefully as invested in the game as the DM---otherwise you end up with a DM-Railroad and the next thing you know when you look up, you're playing DL9 Dragons of Deceit. The DM sets the table, but the players help to cook, guide the order of the dishes, bring their own pot-luck contributions (whether asked to or not), keep the flow of lively conversation going in between mouthfuls. and help to clean up afterward too. The host and the diners are equally committed to a night of fine dining and good company---or good gaming and pizza, as the case may be. Hopefully
- Aside: although the logistics of coordinating the management of game sessions often falls to the DM, this can easily be shared out/delegated to the players through a commonly-access forum, calendar, app, whatever.
- As I hope is clear from the example above, I see all participants are equally responsible for the success of the game: if you have a great DM and average but unengaged players, the game dies; if you have great players and an average but unengaged DM, the game dies; if you have an average DM and average players and the both are committed to and engaging in the game, the game thrives. That doesn't mean that the role of the DM as Referee isn't defining (and the most-important role among the players, like the conductor of the orchestra)---the DM role is critical---but the players' roles are equally critical to success (and I'm strongly influenced here through the approaches to Troupe-Style Play from Ars Magica, which I use to varying degrees in any game I play).

Perhaps I'm also assuming a level of maturity among the DM and the players here that doesn't exist in most groups?---that without the more iron-fist-DM-leadership-and-authority-figure approach, that games don't work out well in general??

Allan.

 

[robertsconley]

Perhaps I'm also assuming a level of maturity among the DM and the players here that doesn't exist in most groups?---that without the more iron-fist-DM-leadership-and-authority-figure approach, that games don't work out well in general??

My view is that there are a couple of available hats here. There is the hat of keeping a small group of folks together for a regularly scheduled period of leisure. There is the hat of making Let's Pretend a fun and engaging activity to have as a hobby.

For the first hat I mentioned, it pays for folks to brush up on small group dynamics i.e. good manners and good sportmanship. There often but not always a leader within the group and this person is often but not always the referee of the campaign. I found that this aspect varies from group to group so if one wants get better it pays to have a variety of experience so you can develop a toolkit of what work and doesn't work. You can expect something to come up in this area, and you can expect somebody will need to show some leadership to keep everybody together and having fun.

The above is applicable whether we are talking about boardgame name, card playing night, or roleplaying night. The second hat speaks more about specifically what it takes to make tabletop roleplaying happen. For me tabletop roleplaying is about pretending to be a character having adventures in some setting. What makes interesting is the fact there is a human referee bringing the setting to life for the player as their characters.

There are further details on what it takes to bring a setting to life, but for what being discussed it boils down to a participant in the group donning this hat to bring the world to life. Doing the prep, knowing the details, tracking the consequences as the players adventure as their characters. All of this means that person wearing the hat of referee has lion share of the responsibility for making a tabletop campaign happen. Which typically but not always means the first hat also devolves on the individual for keeping things going socially as a gaming group.

In my experience, I like it best when the responsibilities of the first hat is shared among the group. If everybody actively involved in keeping things going and fun it covers for those who have an off day. I will note that with good leadership it possible to get a group that weak on these skills to the point where this is happening. Possible but not certain. Sometimes it doesn't work out.

Also keep in mind the skills that it takes in being a referee doesn't automatically make that individual good at small group leadership. There some overlap but it not a given. I been involved in gaming groups where the social leader was not the referee and it worked out fine.

 

[Osrnoob]

You help penguins?

This stirs up a lot I would like to say, but honestly am afraid to enter in the public record.

For me at least, growing up in the US, that's a new phenomena....the fear of speaking one's mind.

I saw it recently on a Linux OS bug-reporting mailing list---someone showed up out of nowhere an start calling everyone involved in High-Performance Computing white elitists, and demand to know how the hiring practices at FermiLab were ensuring diversity/equity. The moderators eventually shut the discussion down (politics) and referred the instigators to human resources, but it left me shaken and a bit scared---targeted by an adversarial social justice hit-squad in what previous had been a "safe" place to donate one's time to make a free product a bit better. Everything Open Source was built via the internet and done by invisible volunteers---how then was it possible contributors were being barred based on sex or the color of their skin? Yet now, after the fait accompli (open source software is running 90% of the world's servers), when there are jobs and money involved...folks show up and start demanding their "fair share" of what they didn't build. I know...gate-keeping, historical privileged, etc. Maybe that's real, maybe it's not. Who can be a fair and impartial judge?

There's a lot of that going on right now. As viewed from one-side, all the "old boys clubs" are finally getting broken up --- sexist/racist/homophobic video gamer culture, D&D culture, comic book culture, cinema, corporate culture, you name it.

When I was a lad in school, the future prognosticators in social studies warned us that right around 2020 the US would switch from majority European/Caucasian to a plurality. So the power base is shifted and the privileged culture of the previous 250 years is loosing it grip on the reins. That's bound to be tumultuous.

Add to that the liberal Baby Boomers bolstered by their Millennial children who come down hard on the side of "tear it all down" (they really hated their parent's rules) and used to chant on the college campuses "The times they are a changin'!", and even worse "Hey hey! Ho ho! Western Civ has got to go!". Those two bulge demographics carry a lot of weight.

Honestly though, I worry for civilization-as-I've-known-it. I am biased in favor of Western Culture and Judaeo-Christian Morales. While it's easy to dig up many, many, many examples of its unfairness and abuses of power (Westerners are still humans after all), but I think its the best mankind has seen to date. In its defense I offer to the court:

• democracy -- western civ
• freedom of religion --- western civ
• freedom of speech --- western civ
• separation of church and state --- western civ
• civil rights --- western civ

It's not perfect, but it's the most evolved civilization I think the world has ever seen. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

The folks who are kicking in the doors of all the old boys clubs and putting all the "old white guys" up against the wall...well, it feels a bit like the land reformation in third world countries after a Communist revolution. I imagine it feels great shooting all the European-descended land owners and grabbing stuff...until the economy collapses.

Recall the Enlightenment, rationalism, and belief in the modern State gave us WWI and WWII. It all makes perfect sense in your head...until suddenly it doesn't. Someone, sensing an opportunity for personal power, takes it all a bit too far. We humans have been finding new and innovative ways to screw each other over for thousands of years...and even more ways to justify it. There is some truth to the fact that with 7 billion people, there is real competition. It's NOT a purely cooperative game. Some times it really is zero-sum. There will be winners and losers. Nature seems to favor that mechanic. Survivial of the fittest. That's the essence of Capitalism and Free Markets too.

So @Beoric: injustice is injustice...there's no denying that. I'll lend what strength I have to defend the weak. But when the tables turn (as it feels like they are doing in the US), I'll also stand against the mob who are out for blood/revenge/power. Because...injustice is injustice, no matter who is doing it. I would like to see words like color-blind and meritocracy come back into vogue. It should be possible for people to actually fail---but only when its through their own (in)actions and not because the game is rigged. When those ideas fall out of favor, watch out! But, again, who can be a fair and impartial judge? Maybe it would be best if you could only argue for a subgroup to which you have no affiliation and against one you are a part of.

I like you all well enough, even if I only agree with 30% of what you say. That other 70% is still interesting in its dementia. Talk is talk. Actions are what matters. And in the final analysis, we are all 99% full of s***. So, screw idiotic microaggressions---suck it up kiddies, and take it like a (wo)man. Real life is messy.

Also, I will miss seeing sexy lady superheroes and Martian Princesses in revealing uniforms....because that's how I was wired. As a man, I am very thankful God made woman. What is more beautiful? Sex has been over-used to titilate and sell stuff to be sure, but in moderation it has its time and place. A neutered world would be a gray, deary place I would think.

OK. Now that's out of the way---and while the political ban is still off---someone give me the straight gossip on what is going on with Patrick Stuart and the Reddit/Twit-verse? I'm clueless.

 

[squeen]

The open-source revolution combined with the brand-spanking-new internet was a rush. As was liberating software-functionality out from under Microsoft's Iron-Fisted hegemony. The early aughts were hopeful times....but then came the iPhone....and the App Store...and the idea of writing your own software dissolved into an ocean of corporate greed and 3rd-world extortionists chasing the money. The result is today's new Iron Curtain of IT security.

Luke: 3PO! Shut down the trash compactors on the Detection Level!
C3PO: Oh heavens R2! Shut them down! Shut them all down!

More than 90% of the world's servers are running on an operating system that could never be created in today's computing culture. Maybe I'd do something about it, but I'm locked out of my accounts and forgotten my 9 millionth 25-digit password.

Would you like to go paperless? (NO!! Maybe Later)

 

[PrinceofNothing]

The "jerk behaviour" he referenced was speaking or breaking the tension when tension rises in combat, and I have interacted with Smolensk enough to know that he really is a thin-skinned, in-your-face asshole who revels in dishing it out but takes his marbles and goes home in the face of polite disagreement. No, I'm not exaggerating.

I'm like 6 months behind but this is entirely Accurate.

Happy 2022 everyone. Let's hope this year is less trash-firey then the previous one.

 

[Osrnoob]

Thank you for supporting penguins!
On the plus side I do think Linux is growing, valve proton is huge and you can buy computers with penguins built in. Thats massive. Look at GitHub and the growth of creative Commons / others
The world does not admit it but they need penguins. Phones are the next revolution IMO. Change is needed from the big two

Kryptonite and Beta Ray
SAVE US

 

[Osrnoob]

Gygax pg 107 PHB1

"Adventure" Design

Just in case any of my readers haven't heard, Alexis is running an adventure writing TEACHING contest with hundreds of American dollars (m...

bxblackrazor.blogspot.com

To paraphrase.

Your game is tomorrow, don't waste time. An adventure is to call players and ask for the objective.

 

[squeen]

When the heck is @Yora ever going to reply to the thread he started?

 

[Beoric]

Gygax pg 107 PHB1

"Adventure" Design

Just in case any of my readers haven't heard, Alexis is running an adventure writing TEACHING contest with hundreds of American dollars (m...

bxblackrazor.blogspot.com

To paraphrase.

Your game is tomorrow, don't waste time. An adventure is to call players and ask for the objective.

I think he meant that an adventure is a game session, and that when you know you are going to play, the players should call each other and try to figure out their in-game session, so they don't waste time screwing around.

When the heck is @Yora ever going to reply to the thread he started?

They're doing their own thing, posting regularly on their blog.

 

[squeen]

They're doing their own thing, posting regularly on their blog.

Plural?

I've read Yora's blog.

My post above was just a casual joke.

 

[Beoric]

I don't know Yora's gender.

 

[The1True]

I think he's a guy, but yeah, for most western European languages the 'a' at the end of the handle is feminine (tell that to my buddy Dana).

Anyway. Not that it's any of our businesses

 

[squeen]

Yora's blog has gotten HUGE with posts while I wasn't paying attention. He's landed pretty soundly on B/X too.

 

[Beoric]

I stumbled across this Tago Sun Temple module for BFRPG, which I think is interesting, not for the adventure itself, which is linear, but because of how it is organized and presented. There are a few things going on here, one of which is that I was actually able to read what would normally be far too long readaloud without my eyes glazing over. It is a short read, I'm curious what you all think.

 

[squeen]

I stumbled across this Tago Sun Temple module for BFRPG, which I think is interesting, not for the adventure itself, which is linear, but because of how it is organized and presented. There are a few things going on here, one of which is that I was actually able to read what would normally be far too long readaloud without my eyes glazing over. It is a short read, I'm curious what you all think.

I didn't make it too far in. Everything Bryce complains about in today's review applies here including:

The formatting, though, is trying a little too hard. There is, again, clearly an attempt to do the right things here. Boxes. BUllets, font sizing, bolding,e tc. I’m not MAD at it. But I do think it’s ineffective. Ultimately, all of the formatting, and different colored boxes and other attempts to bring clarity end up resulting in a more confusing mess because of all of it. This is a common mistake in overcorrection. Trimming the text up should help quite a bit, and calming the various color schemes for the fonts and boxes. You want something that is easy onthe easy to grok, but brings clarity to the text. This format is complex and causes the brain to fight it.

The setting is Ren Faire out the wazzoo. The descriptive tells you what you are doing. It falls into all sorts of writing and play traps. This guy is a railroad DM lurking in the tall grasses. Linear & scripted.

No thanks, I would not want to play at this table. This is not D&D---which actual is fine with the author who vocally rejects D&D.

Check out his "Edition Wars" posts:

Editions War Part One: Basic - POCGamer

Dungeons & Dragons is the undisputed king of fantasy roleplaying

pocgamer.com

Pretty much sums up where his head is at. No clue about the classic-style of gaming.

I also am not a fan of the video-game-y maps.

Two thumbs down.