The Lost Leagues / The Shadow Pearl

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
There isn't much in the world of D&D that would act as a "barrier" against the travel of a determined enough party - I've had groups scale miles of sheer rock wall and trek through volcanic geyser plains for days on end.
These aren't absolute barriers, but probably slow down the party if they want to go in that direction. They could even be damaging, such as pushing through thorny scrub. The point is to give the PCs a choice between trying a direct route, when they don't necessarily know how far the difficult terrain extends, and taking the easier route and trying to go around. This becomes important where there is time pressure, such as periodic wandering monster rolls.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
You know what would be awesome? If someone developed an app that would render maps with contour lines into 3D images.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Beoric, do you have modules L1 or L2 by Lenard Lekofka?
I do. They never really grabbed me, but Bone Hill has a great map with 0.5 mile hexes and lots of detail including topography. Perfect for a small area, but not so useful for long overland treks with 6 mile hexes. The map itself is 17 miles from north to south, so it fills just shy of three 6 mile hexes.

You can't just make the terrain features less granular you increase the scale or terrain descriptions lose a lot of meaning, when there is one or two days travel between them.

On the other hand, players probably wouldn't notice, so this could be one of those times when I am just asking too much. But I would like to look at a map and adlib, "Well, you are nearing the top of the hill, and it looks like if you keep going east you are going to hit a bluff. There are more hills behind it. The slope to the south is as gradual at the one you came up and seems to dip into a valley between the hills; you might be able to travel east along the valley. You can see poplar trees to the north, and maybe some spruce behind them but you can't see how far they go or what lies beyond them."

Part of it is also a reaction to pretty much every system I have ever seen for getting lost, which boils down to a die roll based on wilderness skill and has pretty much nothing to do with player choices. If you get lost because you take the easy route, and it gradually changes direction without you noticing (elves should detect this the way dwarves detect slopes in dungeons), or because you tried to go directly through that dense shrub where it is easy to get turned around, that is much more interesting to me. I imagine a hex map as being like a dungeon with semipermeable walls.

But I don't know how useful this would be to DMs who haven't spent time in the bush. If some of the edges of a hex have notations like hash marks (elevation change), or blue line (creek), or green line (vegetation) or blue-green line (wetlands), and a key that included information as to how much each of those things slowed down the party as it crossed from one hex to another, would most DMs be able to do something with that?
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Nice maps DP. There's a ton of detail in that cove---VTT/battlemap level I imagine. I also like the mountains in the hex map.

@Beoric : I don't understand this sentance
You can't just make the terrain features less granular you increase the scale or terrain descriptions lose a lot of meaning, when there is one or two days travel between them.
In general, I understand your longing for a more accurate outdoor travel simulation, but if I were to channel my inner @EOTB, I think he would say something like, "Is this something you think your players would enjoy?". The 6-mile terrain hexes themselves are intended to serve the purpose of "easy route" vs. "hard". It seems like, you are just seeking a finer resolution.
 

Two orcs

Officially better than you, according to PoN
I generally take the x2 travel time through mountainous terrain to be because of the winding paths you're forced to take rather than a slower pace. Through my own travels I find decision points to be things like trying to ford a river vs. looking for a better ford, regaining your bearing by scaling a hill vs. pushing on, backtracking when you're lost vs. aiming for a catching feature (like a stream or powerline) and most importantly if you find a good spot to camp early, do you push on hoping there is another further ahead. Being hounded by monsters would make the decisions more poignant but not much different.

I think the only way to truly simlate this would be to not use hexes at all and only feed players information verbally, to let them draw their own maps. Tricky travel decisions would be more like encounters than ongoing challenges. Hexes warp the players' understanding of space, just like characters swell to become 5' wide on 5' grids they imagine that entering a hex means their physical presence covers all of it.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I do. They never really grabbed me, but Bone Hill has a great map with 0.5 mile hexes and lots of detail including topography. Perfect for a small area, but not so useful for long overland treks with 6 mile hexes. The map itself is 17 miles from north to south, so it fills just shy of three 6 mile hexes.
I brought it up because I was curious about your perception of the area as mapped. This goes back to my is-a-mountain-in-an-880-yard-hex-feasible question. IIRC the contour lines mark a 400' change in elevation. For much of the map it seems to me that the change in elevation will barely be perceptible, if at all. Look at the southwest corner of the map in L1. That's called the Kelman Hills, IIRC*. Based on the topography as presented would people pass through the area really perceive it to be hills, or would it be more like a gentle valley between two areas of higher elevation?

This is why I think it would be awesome if there was a program that could convert your topographical map into a 3D image and vice versa.

I think a lot of early game designers didn't realize how off they were with some of scale of their maps. The Flanaess is a prime example. 30 mile hexes. Well, if you Europe in on a map of this scale you'd find that it was dwarfed by the Flanaess, though I forget by how much.

But then I think I've become too much of a perfectionist when worldbuilding. Too much simulationism, as Bryce would say.

* This was the first module I ever bought, so of course I know it practically by heart.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
Everyone here is either the most nit-picky DM ever, or they have the most needlessly nit-picky party ever. Seriously, do all your groups go from hex to hex with measuring tapes and surveyors' tools looking to disprove the reality of the game's scale? If you are not already abbreviating overland travel in some way, then you're making the game purposefully harder for yourself (and likely boring for your players).

Your players aren't going to see the map. What the hell does it matter how realistic, accurate, or to-scale any of it is? Can we stop having @Two orcs re-do everything every time someone gets some weird personal-preference-whim about the hex colors of mountains or whatever? Poor guy.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
@Beoric : I don't understand this sentence

You can't just make the terrain features less granular you increase the scale or terrain descriptions lose a lot of meaning, when there is one or two days travel between them.
In general, I understand your longing for a more accurate outdoor travel simulation, but if I were to channel my inner @EOTB, I think he would say something like, "Is this something you think your players would enjoy?". The 6-mile terrain hexes themselves are intended to serve the purpose of "easy route" vs. "hard". It seems like, you are just seeking a finer resolution.
Well, looking at the L1 map, forests are generally 3-6 hexes wide, and there can be 5-10 hexes between terrain features in the grasslands. If you are using 6 mile hexes, this likely means you are experiencing a change in terrain 0-1 times per day, and that is assuming you are travelling for 8 hours a day unencumbered.

If you look at Two orcs' map and treat it as though hexes were six miles, each mountain hex could contain 1-6 more or less parallel mountain ridges, depending on the width of the ridge, with valleys between them. So it is not a simple as saying a mountain icon in a 1 mile hex means "mountain", and a mountain icon in a 6 mile hex means "mountain", and a mountain icon in a 24-30 mile hex means "mountain".

Travelling in larger hexes means you are handwaiving many travel choices made within them, which requires a different kind of narration. It also implies that when you put an obstacle in their path using a larger scale, it should probably be a bigger obstacle, since the ones you are handwaiving aren't worth playing. I an thinking this through as I write, but that seems to follow for me. When you change the scale, you change the narration, and you change the nature of the obstacles.

And for that matter, you change the resource management game. Water is a daily resource, you don't track it if travel is measured in hours, you do track it if travel is measured in days, and you have to find a way of handwaiving it if travel is measured in weeks (because characters can die of thirst between decision points).

I generally take the x2 travel time through mountainous terrain to be because of the winding paths you're forced to take rather than a slower pace. Through my own travels I find decision points to be things like trying to ford a river vs. looking for a better ford, regaining your bearing by scaling a hill vs. pushing on, backtracking when you're lost vs. aiming for a catching feature (like a stream or powerline) and most importantly if you find a good spot to camp early, do you push on hoping there is another further ahead. Being hounded by monsters would make the decisions more poignant but not much different.

I think the only way to truly simlate this would be to not use hexes at all and only feed players information verbally, to let them draw their own maps. Tricky travel decisions would be more like encounters than ongoing challenges. Hexes warp the players' understanding of space, just like characters swell to become 5' wide on 5' grids they imagine that entering a hex means their physical presence covers all of it.
Travel in the trackless mountains would be at half speed only if you don't take into account the fact that you are rarely able to move directly toward your destination. You may have to go 20 or 50 miles out of your way to get around a 2 mile wide mountain ridge, or consider scaling the mountain instead. If you don't simulate that with forced direction changes on your map, you need to seriously cut travel speeds. So again, when you move to a larger hex map you need to change the impact of a hex on travel, because of all of the obstacles that are being handwaived.

The hexes aren't for the players, they are really a guide for me. I would rather find a way to remove the hexes from the player's map. And yes, major travel decisions are encounters.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Everyone here is either the most nit-picky DM ever, or they have the most needlessly nit-picky party ever. Seriously, do all your groups go from hex to hex with measuring tapes and surveyors' tools looking to disprove the reality of the game's scale? If you are not already abbreviating overland travel in some way, then you're making the game purposefully harder for yourself (and likely boring for your players).
Here, have a cookie.

Your players aren't going to see the map. What the hell does it matter how realistic, accurate, or to-scale any of it is? Can we stop having @Two orcs re-do everything every time someone gets some weird personal-preference-whim about the hex colors of mountains or whatever? Poor guy.
Lol. I haven't been asking him to redraw his map, at least. He asked for feedback and I gave it to him. Whether or not he wants to listen to my insane babblings is up to him.

I've gotten better, honest! I am no longer a perfectionist like I was as a kid.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I brought it up because I was curious about your perception of the area as mapped. This goes back to my is-a-mountain-in-an-880-yard-hex-feasible question. IIRC the contour lines mark a 400' change in elevation. For much of the map it seems to me that the change in elevation will barely be perceptible, if at all. Look at the southwest corner of the map in L1. That's called the Kelman Hills, IIRC*. Based on the topography as presented would people pass through the area really perceive it to be hills, or would it be more like a gentle valley between two areas of higher elevation?

This is why I think it would be awesome if there was a program that could convert your topographical map into a 3D image and vice versa.

I think a lot of early game designers didn't realize how off they were with some of scale of their maps. The Flanaess is a prime example. 30 mile hexes. Well, if you Europe in on a map of this scale you'd find that it was dwarfed by the Flanaess, though I forget by how much.

But then I think I've become too much of a perfectionist when worldbuilding. Too much simulationism, as Bryce would say.

* This was the first module I ever bought, so of course I know it practically by heart.
Yes, I would ignore the stated changes in elevation and assume when the lines are close together it means "steep" and when they aren't it means "gentle". I would identify hills, and areas that would block vision from other areas. But you can't trust them on scale. From what I have seen, most of the early designers had no martial training, no wilderness experience, and didn't compensate for it by being well educated.

I mean, anyone who thinks you can regularly travel 30 miles a day on foot on plains without a road has never walked for ten hours on foot on plains without a road.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Everyone here is either the most nit-picky DM ever, or they have the most needlessly nit-picky party ever. Seriously, do all your groups go from hex to hex with measuring tapes and surveyors' tools looking to disprove the reality of the game's scale? If you are not already abbreviating overland travel in some way, then you're making the game purposefully harder for yourself (and likely boring for your players).

Your players aren't going to see the map. What the hell does it matter how realistic, accurate, or to-scale any of it is? Can we stop having @Two orcs re-do everything every time someone gets some weird personal-preference-whim about the hex colors of mountains or whatever? Poor guy.
I'm looking at tools to help me narrate and develop interesting choices for my players, because I want wilderness travel to be interesting. Something better than "you travel for two hours in the same direction, you do/do not have an encounter with a monster [resolve encounter], you are still in the plans." If you don't care about that, build roads everywhere and don't let your players leave them and you no longer have an issue.

We are way off topic from Two orcs' map at this point, which I like and would be happy to use as is, especially given the small scale.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
I want wilderness travel to be interesting. Something better than "you travel for two hours in the same direction, you do/do not have an encounter with a monster [resolve encounter], you are still in the plans." If you don't care about that, build roads everywhere and don't let your players leave them and you no longer have an issue.
Building the World's Most Perfect Hex Map™ isn't going to fix boring travel. Boring travel is fixed with better player engagement, exciting situations, interesting sights, and sharp improvisational skills. You don't need a map to capture that stuff or include it in your game.

If your only avenue of approach to travel is "random encounter check, fight it and move on" with the hopes that some interesting thing written next to a hex will save your game, then you honestly need to hone your creative DMing skills, nothing more. No amount of muddling around with DM-eyes-only hexes will fix that.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
If your only avenue of approach to travel is "random encounter check, fight it and move on" with the hopes that some interesting thing written next to a hex will save your game, then you honestly need to hone your creative DMing skills, nothing more.
Yeah, it really isn't. A better hex map is a way to get information about constraints on travel onto the map and out of the key so you don't have to key every damned hex on the map. Complaining about that it like complaining that dungeon maps have walls.

And its about having a way to record your brilliant improvisation when you employ it, because the thing about terrain is that PCs might just cross again, maybe even often. And are you seriously dissing my ability to improvise descriptions of terrain, or anything else for that matter?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Nope, just saying that all your map problems can be mitigated into nothingness with the right skills.
Oh, do school me, Obi-wan, who has never seen my game. Grant me the tools for "better player engagement, exciting situations, interesting sights, and sharp improvisational skills" so that travel in my game shall never again be boring, as it doubtless has been hitherto.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
@DangerousPuhson : Looking at your Cove map some more---the feature that is most striking is how you blended the drainage of the underground river into the ocean. Really neat. You total get a sense for the depth of the water.

Satellite imagery?
 
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