Bryce said...

From the comments of Hell Prisons, Bryce liked this write-up on boxed text. I do too

Let’s Design an Adventure: Boxed Text

<rant>
...also in its 5e play example, it goes to show what a hot mess all those redonkulous character class/races are...EVERYONE is so special, you have no idea what kind of entity you are writing the adventure for! The human perspective has been totaly lost.
Yes, I know it's satire, but...

(hrrrmm...a dragonborn paladin...of course!...it's such a logical evolution of player class-candy...soon to be followed by 1st-level demi-god Paladin...or is that more properly the Divineborn race combined with Messiah class? Oh yeah, and no way are they a carpenter's son, definitely nobility from the get-go, too. ...and....and...and...grew up in Barbie's Dream Castle with a pet unicorn! Now THAT'S the perfect character to start a new campaign with! --- :rolleyes:Yeesh!)
</rant>

EDIT: Also this (from comments)
Big Bryce said:
Its not just about using fewer words, its about using better words. Choosing words where the connotation of the word adds meaning to the text. “Looming” rather than “large”, for instance.

Also, choosing to describe the things that will get the players asking questions, so that information is conveyed by PC investigation (ie. active player-DM interaction) rather than by DM monologue. What top level clues (the first hint that gets smart players asking questions) do the players need immediately about the dangers that the situation presents, or what elements are present that are there for the PCs to investigate?
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squeen said:
it goes to show what a hot mess all those redonkulous character class/races are...EVERYONE is so special
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squeen said:
*grumble* New options and additions confuse and scare me. Why do the kids these days worry about playing half-dragons and kenku when they should be out at the malt shoppes and bouncing on their pogo sticks? Is that a sub-class? AHHHH! *runs away*
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The article rubs me the wrong way - "Boxed text doesn't work because my specific play group would hypothetically interrupt it to say the things I think they would say in such a situation". Such a bad argument, which he goes even further to call "evidence" like an imaginary conversation proves something somehow. I get that it's just an example story for bad boxed text, but let's at least try to be plausible here. The tips are the real meat of this thing, but the way he frames them ironically causes me to just gloss over what he has to say (I guess it's true what they say: those who can't, teach.)
 
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I preach the cautionary tale. The counter-force to the momentum of the current pendulum swing. That's all.

You have to admit, class-candy is a great label. (pats self on back) :)
 
You want ad-copy? Alrighty.

Interior, suburban home

Dad: "Hey kids, who wants to play some D&D with their old man?"

Kids (together): "We do! We do!"

Kid 1: "I want to be a necromancer!"

Kid2: "I want to be part-dragon!"

Dad: "Whoa now kids, this is the ORIGINAL D&D... you can't be any of that stuff"

Kids (together): "Awww man!"

Announcer V.O.: "Tired of playing the same boring Fighters and Magic-Users over and over again? Do you feel that five player races just isn't enough? Sick of one-dimensional characters? Have the restrictive choices of classic D&D gotten a bit too stale for your table?"

Kids (together): "Uh huh!"

Announcer V.O.: "Then you need MODERN D&D!"

Kids (together): Yaaaay!"

Kid 1: "I want to play a lizard man!"

Kid 2: "I want to specialize my Warlock!"

Announcer V.O.: "Well with MODERN D&D you can do just that, plus a whole lot more! Backgrounds, sub-classes, monster races - MODERN D&D has got it all covered! And with its newer, more streamlined rules, that means you can say goodbye to all that hard number crunching and finnicky tables!"

Kid 1: "Math sucks!"

Kid 2: "Yeah!"

Dad: "But won't my kids find the choices of MODERN D&D too overwhelming?"

Announcer V.O.: "Good question, dad, but you'll be pleased to know that even the slowest children can pick up a copy of MODERN D&D and jump right into the action! No more extrapolating rules from homebrewed '70s zines to fill gaps! No more flipping through three different sourcebooks to find the table you're looking for! MODERN D&D is so smooth and approachable that these problems become a thing of the past!"

Kid 1: "I like that I can be a former street urchin!"

Kid 2: "My next character is going to be a Wild-shaping Druid!

Dad: "Now kids, you know my rule about putting too much stuff into your D&D game..."

Kids (together): "But daaad..."

Dad: "...well, I'm sorry, but... I love it! Thanks, MODERN D&D!"

Kids (together): "Yaaaay! We love you dad! And we love MODERN D&D!"

Announcer V.O.: "MODERN D&D - now available wherever fine games are sold!"
 
Now that is much, much better. You have a gift. :)



Don't forget this part...

Kid1: "And I want MY paladin to shoot laser beams from his eyes."

Kid2: "ME TOO!!!"

Dad: "Of course. In MODERN D&D you can have whatever you want...and as much of it as you can stand."

Kids: "HURRAY! We love you MODERN D&D! ...

[5 minutes later]

Kid1: "OK. D&D was fun. We totally won everything. But I'm bored now. Let's go play some video games!"

Kid2: "No way! You always beat me --- and losing SUCKS! I QUIT!"

...
 
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squeen said:
(hrrrmm...a dragonborn paladin...of course!...it's such a logical evolution of player class-candy...soon to be followed by 1st-level demi-god Paladin...or is that more properly the Divineborn race combined with Messiah class? Oh yeah, and no way are they a carpenter's son, definitely nobility from the get-go, too. ...and....and...and...grew up in Barbie's Dream Castle with a pet unicorn! Now THAT'S the perfect character to start a new campaign with! --- :rolleyes:Yeesh!)
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You know, I actually have a character who is a dragonborn paladin. A pregen actually, with little backstory starting out (orphan raised in non-dragonborn culture), although the DM created some interesting cultural and family history that I learned through play. I quite enjoy playing her.

It actually is possible for her to become a demigod if she takes the epic destiny at 21st level (although I'm not sure she is actually considered a demigod until 30th). Assuming we keep playing that campaign, and she lives that long.

Its tough to draw comparisons at that level, but let's say she starts on the path to becoming a demigod at the equivalent of around 1e level 16, and succeeds at level 25 or so. For comparison, Heracles from Deities and Demigods is a 15th level ranger/3rd level bard, so it will take her longer to get there then it did for Heracles. Also note my paladin will never get anything like the "standard divine abilities".

I actually played a 1e character to 25th level once. I think that character was probably about as tough as your average 30th level 4e character, maybe tougher in some ways if he is a spellcaster. There is no teleport, limited wish, wish, altered reality, time stop, or equivalent spells in 4e.
 
Sounds like way too much work to wait until 16th-level. I'm sure there's an optional class that let's you start at 1st if your stats are good enough (and if not, just roll 4d6).

@Beoric: Whatever floats your boat. Were I to take your position---that there is no better, and all is equal---there would be very little left to say. My thoughts and opinions are based upon what I have found to be true. Discount it if you like. At this point, your copious counterexamples strain my credulity and go against all of my firsthand knowledge with regards to struggle and reward. I'm finding it all a bit difficult to swallow. Perhaps we are too different in our thinking to find common ground on what is "good".

No teleport?! Didn't expect that.
 
@squeen: Note I didn't choose to play a dragonborn paladin, the character sheet was handed to me and I made the best of it. I would argue this is in keeping with the spirit of 1e, an edition which includes magical changes to gender and alignment, which in the best tradition of the game the player is expected to just roll with.

And you do you. I only mentioned the character because of the coincidence that you happened to choose the dragonborn paladin to pick on, and a dragonborn paladin demigod is an actual thing, which I found amusing.

No teleport, and most forms of flight including the fly spell are severely restricted and have far less utility. Also most spells in 1e that let you do things automatically (like detect lie) only improve your chances of doing a thing. Passwall is much diminished and takes 10 minutes to cast, and hold portal is practically useless. Basically anything that gives a clear combat or tactical advantage (like invisibility, fly, Tenser's transformation or potions of heroism) or would constitute a shortcut (teleport, fly, many divination spells) or do something automatically (detection spells, knock, , hold portal, invisibility) is either removed or seriously gimped. I admit to being a bit ambivalent about this, and have added a few things back where I think something was lost.
 
I mock the class-candy not to bully people into playing "my way", or even condemn wholesale an edition, but to bring awareness to the fact that all that is orthogonal to the game. It's "candy" the players sometime reach for, but is irrelevant to the heart of the game---and can lead to rot and decay. My point is to expose it as a distraction---a useless appendage to good D&D. I harp upon it because it's a mental trap that can de-rail the group dynamic. Sure, you like your character---that's fine, we all do---now let's move along and DO STUFF. It's the long-story of your character's interactions during actual play that makes for a great tale---and that has absolutely nothing to do with what happens at roll-up...so why waste any time futzing with it? Let's all start from the same "Go" point.

You played for years and your PC climbed Mt. Olympus and retired a demi-god? That's awesome. You got shape-changed by an evil wizard into a half-dragon and you just kept playing it that way? That's very cool! ...BUT... Your character started out on the oh-so-special Chosen-One-By-Birth tract?...that's garbage. I get you want more---you've built tolerance and want a stronger "hit", something new to jolt your jaded mind. But this is not the solution. It's a blind alley. Look instead to better game-play. Maybe find a new DM.

From the earliest days, people (not Gygax) were clamoring for more "choices" in race/class...but they were totally missing the point. Less is More. KISS. etc. We do that, narcissistically as human being, primp and preen---looking at our own reflections instead of outward into the world. We go inward instead of engaging with others. It's a psychological failing that should not be encourage within the core rules. It's empty character-porn. I am saying to heck with it---this exotic race/class stuff is all BS. It doesn't really help, but it sure as heck has proven it can hurt.

It's one of only two lessons I know I've learned about the game---don't focus on your character. The other is (as DM) let your players fail (and die...preferably often at low level to set the bar). Real (impartial) challenge makes for sustainable play. Faux challenge with a safety-net and you all will soon lose interest. In all my years of playing, I think I only got above name-level (18th?) ONCE. It happened pretty rapidly in a very dangerous part of a mega-dungeon. It also ended with my character's death soon (weeks/months) afterwards while still trapped inside the same dungeon. All my character runs ended with death. It's what made me keep coming back, like a junkie, for more.

OK. One more lesson on which I am certain---balance. Bad with the good. But that's a tightrope. Harder to quantify. Might also be the same as #2 (challenge).
 
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Beoric said:
No teleport, and most forms of flight including the fly spell are severely restricted and have far less utility. Also most spells in 1e that let you do things automatically (like detect lie) only improve your chances of doing a thing. Passwall is much diminished and takes 10 minutes to cast, and hold portal is practically useless. Basically anything that gives a clear combat or tactical advantage (like invisibility, fly, Tenser's transformation or potions of heroism) or would constitute a shortcut (teleport, fly, many divination spells) or do something automatically (detection spells, knock, , hold portal, invisibility) is either removed or seriously gimped. I admit to being a bit ambivalent about this, and have added a few things back where I think something was lost.
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Whoa, I had heard about a handful of those but I didn't realize it was that extreme.
 
TerribleSorcery said:
Whoa, I had heard about a handful of those but I didn't realize it was that extreme.
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Yeah. On the other hand, the wizard is supposed to be able to improvise magical effects, and the DM makes a ruling on the odds he can pull it off. So you might be able to use magic to open a lock even if you don't have a knock spell. But there wasn't a lot of guidance as to what a wizard ought to be able to pull off at a given level, and in practice I think it ended up being ignored by most DMs and players.
 
"don't focus on your character "--Squeen
51Bl8W1tpsL._AC_SL1001_.jpg

The colors of these pieces may be getting WWWAAAAYYYYY too crazy!! The different colors break the game!
 
Try as you might to reduce what I am saying to absurdity---ultimately, you know at some level it's correct.
Wonder instead which part of you is resisting such a small and simple truth.
 
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squeen said:
Try as you might to reduce what I am saying to absurdity---ultimately, you know at some level what I'm saying is correct.
Wonder instead which part of you is resisting such a small and simple truth.
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Im totally agreeing with you though. I mean..I may get rid of clerics, mages, and thieves too. Way too much variety. Fighters...not barbarians, rangers, paladins...just plain ol fighters will be in my campaign. All human. But I may dip my toe into crazy and give them an option between axe, sword or hammer. But that's it!!!
 
squeen said:
Absurdity.
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That's your opinion. At least my campaign won't be broken. I wouldn't want to give my players too much creative freedom in a game based on imagination. Alright..fine..I may offer bows and slings too.
 
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