The state of Post-OSR content

[squeen]

Thanks Melan! You are my go-to guy for hobby insights of this nature.

 

[Beoric]

Mike Mearls has always had an interest in old-school D&D, so it does not come as a surprise he wants to design adventures for it. WotC has let staff freelance on the sides before.

That's hard to believe given what I have seen of his work. Examples: Roots of Evil, Salvage Operation, Three Faces of Evil, plus his 4e contributions which I have had the displeasure of reading.

But I gather from this comment on Bryce's review of Roots of Evil that what he says and what he does may not be consistent.

 

[HypthtcllySpkng]

Ah, to be a forum member on a mostly quiet site once more... Well, here we go. Have at thee brigands, I fear not your flame wars, nor your empty threats of disemvowelment.

I google-searched the phrase post-OSR a day ago as I had my own set of questions, and much to my surprise is this lovely place. This thread is one of the top results. A lively entrance for a dungeon such as this.

It seems to me, having read this entire frickin' thread, that Yora's original post wasn't entirely off base, though the thread was side-tracked a bit.
I hope this doesn't come across as hijacking the thread, I know in some ways the thread has moved on a bit, but I'll stick to reinforcing what the threads original intent was and spin off of that.

There was seemingly some confusion over whether OSR is a genre of game or an era of time or movement within the hobby, and so there was some interjection. A lot of fiddling with the definition of OSR if it were to be considered a genre of tabletop, and what defines it. That's been discussed at length, and I move to dismiss it. It may not have been, but it does seem to have become, a subset of playstyle and mechanical inclination within the ttrpg community, and thus could be considered a genre birthed out of the movement which gave it its namesake.

That said, it was only barely glossed over what OSR as a movement really means.
Let's see here...

We've discussed that the Old School Rennaissance probably began around 2006 with OSRIC, the movement's goal being to offer a rebirth of sorts to the style of play of First Edition DND primarily, and to provide an opportunity for the addition of new content and modules for that system. Out of that movement - which in reality was probably only a small percentage of ttrpg players and dm's - Maybe 30%, if I had to guess, at a reach? This sparked the need for getting more people playing those old games, one solution among many was to reboot the old system of 1e entirely, and so we got not just new content and modules for 1e, but ultimately entirely new systems. Lamentations, et al. (An oversaturation that hurt the movement ultimately, but will be fun to sift through in the... new era?)
The systems, and the modules, were benefited by the passing of time since the '70s and the advent of better design, better theory, better layouts, digital media and licensing, other games and their mechanics to borrow from, etc. All of which amounted to, and this is an important point that someone else mentioned but it was again glossed over, credit to whomever that was: It forced a paradigm shift. From the point that OSR started, ttrpg's as an industry had to recognize the existence of it, the importance of it, and going forward respond to it.

The reasons why this happened were myriad, (4e bad? 3.5 too old? Pathfinder too accepting of 3.5's changes? All of it too unlike the original experience?) but don't add much to the conversation at large. That is, those reasons don't serve to answer the question Yora asked. What is the state of post-OSR? I take his meaning to refer to the era, as there is no post-OSR genre.
Thusly:
Has the OSR period of time, the movement specifically, ended?
If so, why?
And of course, the reason why I originally google searched this topic: if OSR has ended and we are in a post-OSR era, what does that era look like now and what does it mean for gaming going forward?

--

To my mind, I'd put the OSR era ending right about 2016, for a few reasons. Several folks in this thread have mentioned that year as well.
Firstly, Maze of the Blue Medusa came out that year. Say what you will about the authors, the controversy, so on, but truly it was a magnificent work within the OSR genre, and even with minimally statted creatures, and its compatibility with everything up to 5e, the mindset of the OSR was perfectly apparent in the book. Its layout, its style, the weirdness of it, all were phenomenal and exemplary of both the old school perspective of gaming and that modernity that the OSR brought with it as an era. A real and solid conclusion to a paradigm shift. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned here more in this thread, especially given Bryce's review of it. (This is not to say that the genre does not persist, and likely from here always will. But the effect it had on the industry has run its course. I can't think of any single module or system within the OSR genre to date that had as much polish and was as unique and truly different as this one. If you can think of a more ideal module to act as our end date, then by all means.)
Secondly. officially, 5e came out in 2014. DND Next was playtesting as early as 2012, but the 3 core books weren't all released until December 2014., meaning 2015 before people were really chewing on the meat of the thing, and I give it a year for the ramifications of its release to have set in. So, in 2016. 5e was a response to OSR as much as a response to previous dnd editions, among responding to other things. More than OSR ever did, and whether we like it or not, 5e took the paradigm shift mantle after its release.
Lastly, while digital tools and internet media were a part of the OSR era too, and influenced its reach (youtube was 2006, the same year as OSR started); nothing quite like Twitch and Critical Role had ever occurred before. CR started airing in 2015, and really picked up steam in 2016, its first campaign finishing in 2017. I was there for the first years' worth of episodes, and the numbers were only in the 10k viewers range then. The finale had nearly 100,000, and that was live viewers, not including youtube watchers, VOD watchers, podcast listeners, etc. The CR crew, now on their own but then under Geek and Sundry and Nerdist, play other games besides 5e too and have drawn attention to everything from Pathfinder to V:tM to CoC. They are damn near the reason for 5e's success. Important to this discussion, CR shows that the digital industry is having a profound effect on gaming. There's more incentive than ever to offer digital creation tools and supplements for every game you can think of, from character creators to dice rollers to map designers. All that stuff on smartphones now too. Hell, as DM's we even have to watch out for players who come from an "I've seen CR" background because that could mean a very specific vision of what gaming is. Not bad per se, but prevalent and it will have an effect on gaming as we move into the future.
An honorable mention in my mind goes to the lasting effect that the digital world will have on the industry in 30 years or so. Thirty years ago, was the 90s. We had 2e, then 3, some back alley internet forums, and shitty magazines and old grumpy grognards to teach us, and that's it. We figured the rest out, as they did before us without any of that shit in the 70s. The kids playing dnd now, and DMing for the first time, at age 14... They have Chris Perkins twitter, Matthew Mercer's shows, Matt Colville's advice, Gary Gygax life history in documentaries, a hundred times more ttrpg games than existed then, video games and the familiarity people have with their mechanics, people's familiarity with the Lord of the Rings movies that didn't exist in the 90s. Whereas we had to figure it all out, one could literally create a course and teach a kid everything we know about being a DM from youtube alone, and the course would only take what like 3 years max? Imagine a world where those kids are making the games. I hope that we can find a way to ensure they don't forget the old ways entirely.

Whatever this thread decides the new paradigm shift is, it is no longer heavily influenced by OSR. It's influenced primarily by the digital world, and by Fifth Edition. Whatever comes out of this era will likely be a response to Fifth Ed, and not a response to OSR because Fifth WAS the response to OSR. Pathfinder 2e tried to respond to 5e, and while it wasn't HORRIBLE, it did fail to really influence opinions or the trajectory of the industry.
I'll throw in a bit of conjecture, but I think the industry will probably be more affected by the progressive left than folks tend to give credit. Between industry popular actors being ousted over allegations, and companies coming out in support of lgbtq+ or racial rights, we'll likely see a lot of new perspectives that lean in that direction. IMO, that's not a bad thing, but it'll take getting used to.

I'll leave off here for a bit. I'd like to hear you guys more educated opinions. Certainly, my timeline could be off. You may have better dates in mind. Etc.
Some questions of note:
What do we think the response to 5e will ultimately be? Do we see any trends happening NOW that answer that?
5e will likely be in play for another 5 years at least, after which what does 6e look like?
How heavily do you think digital stuff affects things? On the one hand, big companies are embracing it, but small devs can't afford too much. Big companies overprice too, and it slows the viability of an all-digital ttrpg.

Anyway, I have my opinions, but I feel like I'm talking over people. Take your attack of opportunity already.

 

[The1True]

And of course, the reason why I originally google searched this topic: if OSR has ended and we are in a post-OSR era, what does that era look like now and what does it mean for gaming going forward?

Difficult to answer here, because we're in a safe little bubble, away from the whirlwind vagaries of the new wave of gaming. Life has been ... contentious at best on this forum for those who espouse the newer editions of the game. And, even those points of view may not necessarily represent the new wave since a number of us using newer rules editions are choosing to adopt a looser, old-school playstyle anyway.

I feel like I'm safe among the present company, but I'm going to piss off the Mod by issuing a trigger alert for some contextually appropriate hate-speech ahead:
I can offer this perspective: I was teaching digital art in a game development program at my local college. It was a boys' club when it started, but in the last few years before I left I was seeing queer kids with purple hair, trans-women, polyamourous cat-girls; all of them engaging in RPG's in their down time and having a blast. I'm ashamed to say my first reaction to this was bitterness. I came up through the satanic-panic of the 80's, duking it out in the halls and on the sports field with the Chads of the world because I was into a gay-as-hell nerd-game. D&D was where we went to punch each other and air our filthiest jokes and call each other 'fag' or 'retard' or a thousand other slurs that have passed out of common use all while powering up and murdering our problems with ever-improving might and weaponry. It was a boys' club. It still is, but now we're airing out our gripes about our wives and kids and mortgages, lamenting the orange fuckwit we're powerless to keep from ruining our planet while we murder our problems with ever-improving might and weaponry. That's my bubble. That's what I understand. But by the end, I was looking at these kids and I had to admit, I didn't understand the game they were playing or the intricate social dances they were involved in, but god bless them for not having to come up through the adversity we did; for being the gamers we dreamed of being. It's amazing to watch them Rrroleplay and I feel like we laid that groundwork. We got those bloody noses in the locker room so these kids could let their freak flags fly. It's easy to hate them for being the kind of weird that got beaten out of us back in the day; to hate the game they play because it seems foofy compared to the murderous colonial antics of our own adventures, but god bless them for carrying the game forward; for keeping it alive and vital and relevant for another generation.

Is the BlowSR dead? Not as long as crusty old bastards like us go on congregating to share a fart smorgasbord and call each other 'gaylord' for trying to diplomacy the town guard instead of just shanking him, and when the young folk come wandering into our little bubble looking to discuss ancient mechanics like procedural generation, terse writing, loose/improvisational refereeing or any of a hundred other things the gate keepers decree define the movement, it should be our duty to make them welcome and show them what's awesome about what we're doing rather than what we hate about what they're doing. Let's face it, we're going to be playing this in the nursing home. That's the dream anyway! And as long as we're here, so is the OSR in one form or another.

To this I add a related question: What's a Grognard. Not the literal French translation; I mean what identifies a grognard. Can one just identify as an old guard? Do you have to be some degree of officious, gate-keeping pundit? Is it just the length of your gaming experience? Is it the edition you play with your friends?

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Has the OSR period of time, the movement specifically, ended?

I think you can state that its moment of primary influence on gaming has probably passed, but there's still plenty of stuff that comes out and seems to be doing well. OSE raked in 100k in its kickstarter for example.

To my mind, I'd put the OSR era ending right about 2016, for a few reasons. Several folks in this thread have mentioned that year as well.
Firstly, Maze of the Blue Medusa came out that year. Say what you will about the authors, the controversy, so on, but truly it was a magnificent work within the OSR genre, and even with minimally statted creatures, and its compatibility with everything up to 5e, the mindset of the OSR was perfectly apparent in the book.

Having never read Maze of the Blue Medusa I can't comment on its merits or demerits. I would observe that subsequent works came out that may have eclipsed it in terms of popularity, commercial success and long term effect on design. Veins of the Earth is fairly well acclaimed for example. I feel the OSR as a whole did not become stagnant until well after, so I'd place it more at around 2018. I think one cannot discuss the OSR without discussing Lotfp as it was the primary, and largest influencer (DCC or Crawford probably do much better but are less visible). I look at works like Halls of Arden Vull or Lost Treasure of Atlantis and I see mature works, made by passionate people, that are vibrant and not watered down by the demands of commercialism.

5e was a response to OSR as much as a response to previous dnd editions, among responding to other things. More than OSR ever did, and whether we like it or not, 5e took the paradigm shift mantle after its release.

I think its difficult to discuss the influence of 5e since under the current paradigm, its hard to find anything that closely resembles it since anything that competes in the same arena is almost instantly devoured. Its player base is enormous, so its difficult to look at other systems or products and measure its influence. To put it differently, it is difficult to point to D&D as a primary influence on game design because in later years D&D has been the primary measure of influence for different streams of game design.

Important to this discussion, CR shows that the digital industry is having a profound effect on gaming. There's more incentive than ever to offer digital creation tools and supplements for every game you can think of, from character creators to dice rollers to map designers. All that stuff on smartphones now too. Hell, as DM's we even have to watch out for players who come from an "I've seen CR" background because that could mean a very specific vision of what gaming is. Not bad per se, but prevalent and it will have an effect on gaming as we move into the future.

Very true. Its one of the influences that I think is most complicated because it absolutely brings in people, but at the same time it brings them in with strange expectations of what to expect from a Roleplaying game. Someone once observed that CR is to D&D what porn is to sex, and I think that's a legitimate point. There's an influx of people who love CR and might even claim to love D&D but who do not play and those might be the demographic WotC is aiming for. It's the model for current comics. You bring out the game which has limited commercial success as a vehicle for the merchanidising and expanded universe stuff that makes the money. That seems to be the strategy but at the same time roleplaying games that produce to be read instead of practiced don't self-correct. They become ornamental. The focus on splatbooks and player options at the time might have contrbuted to the rise of a more praxis-focused, utilitarian stream of play like the OSR.

I feel like I'm safe among the present company, but I'm going to piss off the Mod by issuing a trigger alert for some contextually appropriate hate-speech ahead:

Much obligued. I don't know what orange man and american foreign policy has to do with gaming so maybe give that one a rest but otherwise have at it, the increasing politicization within and outside WotC is a legitimate influence to discuss on the game as a whole. I don't think it will be a positive one, in fact I am assuming it will eventually cost them a significant percentage of their fanbase, but if they can attract and retain more then they lose it might work this time. I look at things like comic book fandom, or science fiction fandom and in general observe increased politicization, particularly the type that has professionals ousted and books banned and the customer base reprimanded by a company that requires their clientele to survive, tends to generate negative commercial results in the long run. In a world of abundant alternatives and hyper-optimization, you simply cannot afford the inefficiency for a prolonged period of time.

The kids playing dnd now, and DMing for the first time, at age 14... They have Chris Perkins twitter, Matthew Mercer's shows, Matt Colville's advice, Gary Gygax life history in documentaries, a hundred times more ttrpg games than existed then, video games and the familiarity people have with their mechanics, people's familiarity with the Lord of the Rings movies that didn't exist in the 90s. Whereas we had to figure it all out, one could literally create a course and teach a kid everything we know about being a DM from youtube alone, and the course would only take what like 3 years max? Imagine a world where those kids are making the games. I hope that we can find a way to ensure they don't forget the old ways entirely.

What you see happening with kids under the influence of the internet is the same thing that you see happening to society as a whole. There are so many different viewpoints and currents that everything gets lost, atomized and obscured. In situations like that, people tend to cling to what is familiar or has a semblance of legitimacy or is powerful enough to drown out the clamouring multitudes. I think anyone growing up under the semantic apocalypse of pervasive interconnection is probably going to be pretty conservative in his gaming, never straying all that far from the beaten path of the game they grew up with. An alternative root is oldschool D&D, because it represents a more fundamental connection to the original, so it will always have a sort of legitimacy. You can have different currents and strains but until Wizards pushes out another edition, I am predicting 5e, or something that claims to be 5e, since that too will become an increasingly amorphous concept.

What do we think the response to 5e will ultimately be? Do we see any trends happening NOW that answer that?
5e will likely be in play for another 5 years at least, after which what does 6e look like?
How heavily do you think digital stuff affects things? On the one hand, big companies are embracing it, but small devs can't afford too much. Big companies overprice too, and it slows the viability of an all-digital ttrpg.

I don't think there will be a true response to 5e. 5e as it is now is massively successful compared to earlier editions, and WotC is trying to break into the multimedia with it. You want to expand and consolidate when that happens, not depart radically from earlier innovation that might cost you significant gains. Its possible they will unleash some sort of uber-woke version of 6e but since that doesn't have the broad appeal that is needed to carry it forward I don't think you can classify it as a reponse, as in, I don't think it would be more viable then the status quo.

I think your prediction of increasing multi-media interconnection is probably spot on. Maybe they will try to go for some sort of subscription model that auto-generates your characters and applies multiple resolution systems so you can all play the game using an app, and Wizards will keep your data or whatever. A subscription based version of the game that you can only play using an app sounds about right.

The digital stuff only makes sense when you reach a certain economy of scale, but then again, anyone with some free hours can live-stream their sessions of D&D or compete in one way or another. The digital landscape is a force multiplyer, and anyone with the analytics and the capacity can benefit of off that.

 

[squeen]

Ah, to be a forum member on a mostly quiet site once more... Well, here we go. Have at thee brigands, I fear not your flame wars, nor your empty threats of disemvowelment.

I google-searched the phrase post-OSR a day ago as I had my own set of questions, and much to my surprise is this lovely place. This thread is one of the top results. A lively entrance for a dungeon such as this.

Welcome @HypthtcllySpkng. A nice, thoughtful post.

I get the feeling you are researching an article for publication---am I right?

A lot to think about here. I'm going to need some time.

 

[The1True]

To this I add a related question: What's a Grognard.

Ask and you shall receive apparently...

 

[HypthtcllySpkng]

It's easy to hate them for being the kind of weird that got beaten out of us back in the day; to hate the game they play because it seems foofy compared to the murderous colonial antics of our own adventures, but god bless them for carrying the game forward; for keeping it alive and vital and relevant for another generation.

Indeed. I see what you see, and echo my earlier thought: I just hope they move forward without forgetting the older games. If, as the grognardia article you posted suggests, grognards simply believe that an old game doesn't equal a bad game, then it would be easy to think that the new generation will forget the old games that paved the way for the newer ones. Whatever the political or ethical affiliation, if the old games are good then they shouldn't be forgotten and in the midst of the new waves of disdain for those political and ethical aspects, I think many miss the diamond in the rough.
That said, we don't make it easy for them. That hate for the new is prevailing in the culture of the grognard. The gatekeeping, the toxicity, the propensity to be offensive. That seems to be minimal on this forum, at least, but elsewhere on the back alleys of the internet, they'll shank ya' for saying a character can be in a wheelchair. And frankly, who the fuck cares that much? Why be so exclusionary? I think that, in point of fact, we're going to lose the things that make old school gaming beautiful simply because we fail so often to just be nice to people that are different and make space for them at the table. Alas.
Granted, wheelchair rules are super incompatible with many a dungeon that I would run, but. I can always just tweak it I suppose.

Let's face it, we're going to be playing this in the nursing home. That's the dream anyway! And as long as we're here, so is the OSR in one form or another.

That's my thing though. As long as we're here only works til' we're dead. It's a noble notion to keep the OSR alive in our hearts, but nobler still to find a way to pass it on.

I think you can state that its moment of primary influence on gaming has probably passed, but there's still plenty of stuff that comes out and seems to be doing well.

Is your name based on the R Scott Bakker books?
Coming out and doing well doesn't to me say a paradigm shift. Though I really do hope that as OSR genre content continues to be released maybe we can still get something that's just so good it's a fuck you to WOTC.

Veins of the Earth is fairly well acclaimed for example. I feel the OSR as a whole did not become stagnant until well after, so I'd place it more at around 2018.

I'm reading that one in my spare time right now. I see the acclaim, as a supplement for underground play that dismisses the notion of an Underdark, it is incredible. But I argue the only real game-changer there is the notion that you don't have to have an Underdark. Still, 2016 or 2018, dead now or dying. I think we can all agree it's past its prime, as you said.

I see mature works, made by passionate people.

Y'know, I agree with this. We haven't mentioned it much so far, but one symptom of the OSR era was an increase in modules and settings that were obviously for adults, not family-friendly. I will argue that is a good thing, with the caveat that some devs didn't seem to know where the line was and crossed it. We need more adult-oriented RPG's that acknowledge gore, sex, and other adult things. That said, past a certain point you get into the socially unacceptable. The same dev that is confronted by his community who says, hey that's maaaaaybe too far, rants and raves about censorship, not realizing he's devolved into a form of sociopathy and a selfish lack of an ability to acknowledge that he lost his crowd. And so we need a tolerance for corrective action as well. An ability to say, yes okay perhaps I don't need an encounter table that has rape on it. I'll leave that to the individual table.

I think its difficult to discuss the influence of 5e since under the current paradigm, its hard to find anything that closely resembles it since anything that competes in the same arena is almost instantly devoured. Its player base is enormous, so its difficult to look at other systems or products and measure its influence. To put it differently, it is difficult to point to D&D as a primary influence on game design because in later years D&D has been the primary measure of influence for different streams of game design.

I would argue that what you just said IS the influence of D&D and 5e, that it IS the current paradigm. That we have one enormous game that swallows everything and that all the real growth, development, and innovation is happening in the darker corners of the internet. There seems to be. to me, two branches of progress in the industry. The direction that DND is headed is one path, the other is the direction that hardcore players and home designers are headed. Due to the overall need to keep growing and making all the money in the world, WOTC has to constantly address and respond to the other path. Every edition they seem to be doing so. In Fifth, they've finally taken the pill and expanded into supporting their existing base more, in opposition to growing their base with new blood. The MtG stuff for instance, and the Wildemount stuff. But eventually, they'll want to start making more money and not just retain what they're making now. The first place to look for that is always, what is the other branch of the industry doing?

At the same time roleplaying games that produce to be read instead of practiced don't self-correct. They become ornamental.

My shelf full of a near-complete 5e collection I'll never play feels personally attacked and would like an apology.

I look at things like comic book fandom, or science fiction fandom and in general observe increased politicization, particularly the type that has professionals ousted and books banned and the customer base reprimanded by a company that requires their clientele to survive, tends to generate negative commercial results in the long run. In a world of abundant alternatives and hyper-optimization, you simply cannot afford the inefficiency for a prolonged period of time.

I would agree in most cases, except that with TTRPG's there are no abundant alternatives. You have three options:
1. Fifth edition
2. an older edition or a different good game which is probably inferior to its modern incarnation and too chunky for the modern gamer (no one's recommending the newest Shadowrun over an older one, and no CR-influenced gamer is about to play a second edition Shadowrun game)
or 3. The gatekeeped communities of the OSR.
So really, for the new wave players coming in with progressive leftist thinking, its 5e or nothing. Statistically, that's probably the majority of the people playing and buying WOTC products right now too. So, they're going to support that. The company will go where it thinks it will make the most money and then look around to appeal to more people because it isn't enough to make a lot of money, they have to make all the money in the world.

I think anyone growing up under the semantic apocalypse of pervasive interconnection is probably going to be pretty conservative in his gaming, never straying all that far from the beaten path of the game they grew up with.

Mmm. Reaching. No proof. It's a solid possibility, but equally, there are tons of GM's and new blood players who are interested equally in the history and the philosophy of these games, in addition to the developers of games looking around at what's interesting. Some, maybe a majority, will likely go the conservative route, but the group that will affect the industry as a whole via innovation or by being a vocal and monetary support for varied ideas are likely to be more considered and... connoisseur-like than I think you're giving credit. I have more to say on this topic, but I'll save it for another thread later.

I don't think there will be a true response to 5e. 5e as it is now is massively successful compared to earlier editions, and WotC is trying to break into the multimedia with it. You want to expand and consolidate when that happens, not depart radically from earlier innovation that might cost you significant gains.

WOTC won't respond to it, not for a long time. But TTRPG developers already are. Pathfinder 2e was a response. Half of what the OSR communities are talking about these days are responding directly to the effect that 5e is having on the industry. Someone will eventually have a GOOD response, and WOTC will have to acknowledge it. For now though, you're right. We're a ways off.

 

[HypthtcllySpkng]

I think your prediction of increasing multi-media interconnection is probably spot on. Maybe they will try to go for some sort of subscription model that auto-generates your characters and applies multiple resolution systems so you can all play the game using an app, and Wizards will keep your data or whatever. A subscription based version of the game that you can only play using an app sounds about right.

The digital stuff only makes sense when you reach a certain economy of scale, but then again, anyone with some free hours can live-stream their sessions of D&D or compete in one way or another. The digital landscape is a force multiplyer, and anyone with the analytics and the capacity can benefit of off that.

I'm thinking that 6e will probably just be 5e with some minor complaints dealt with, all digital, partnered with DND Beyond and with a more full suite of tools. The books that release would ONLY be collectors editions for people insistent on hard copies, they'd no longer have just the normal books. Twitch integration, available on every major platform. 10$ a month to use the app plus the cost of each book, or 20$ a month and you get the app plus every official ruleset and supplement. 30$ and you get the DM package and you and 5 friends get equal access that you lose the moment you stop paying.
This shit is so broken. I'll always want the hard copy.

Welcome @HypthtcllySpkng. A nice, thoughtful post.
I get the feeling you are researching an article for publication---am I right?

No dice. I'm just a curious cat.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

I snipped part of your quotes since mine got too long, apologies etc. etc.

Is your name based on the R Scott Bakker books?
Coming out and doing well doesn't to me say a paradigm shift. [...]

Guilty. Love em to bits. I think thus far the only truly great fantasy series this century has produced.

I think the advantages of a distributed community like the OSR is that you can make a lot of niche stuff for people with a very particular taste, so that makes it friendly to artists and people well versed in the genre, but it can be intimidating to cut your teeth in it. I find games like DCC or ACKS vastly superior to 5e but that comes with a background in roleplaying games and a fairly specific taste. 5e works so well because its so comparatively easy to jump in and it manages to be broadly appealing, and it doesn't have the same sort of implicit knowledge you need in order to make a lot of the Oldschool stuff work well.

[...]But I argue the only real game-changer there is the notion that you don't have to have an Underdark. Still, 2016 or 2018, dead now or dying. I think we can all agree it's past its prime, as you said.

I did a review of Veins and I actually bought a hardcover during the Raggi crisis but I am lukewarm about the whole. I tried to engage with the notion of an Underdark that really tried to differentiate it from the surface world in a way that I haven't really seen before, but I will be the first to say the execution has serious flaws.

I think past its prime in terms of influence is true beyond a doubt. In terms of quality, I think the dropoff in dream merchants and casuals will mean a diminishing of available material but it also means less chaff. I dunno. Ask me again when Palace comes out.

Y'know, I agree with this. We haven't mentioned it much so far, but one symptom of the OSR era was an increase in modules and settings that were obviously for adults, not family-friendly. I will argue that is a good thing, with the caveat that some devs didn't seem to know where the line was and crossed it. We need more adult-oriented RPG's that acknowledge gore, sex, and other adult things. That said, past a certain point you get into the socially unacceptable. [...]

I think mature more in the sense of refinement, experience, expectations, more as a response to casual. My problem with a lot of current mass market stuff is that it can't really afford to demand the same dedication and skill from its player base and GMs as the more casual stuff. The OSR has a more experienced crowd. It's like the Shmup genre of Rpgs.

Violence-wise, I don't like games that are too watered-down, but gore and sex are often used as a crutch for bad writing. They should act like condiments, not as meal-replacement.

In Fifth, they've finally taken the pill and expanded into supporting their existing base more, in opposition to growing their base with new blood. The MtG stuff for instance, and the Wildemount stuff. But eventually, they'll want to start making more money and not just retain what they're making now. The first place to look for that is always, what is the other branch of the industry doing?

I'm not sure I agree that its primarily expanding into an existing base as opposed to growing their brand with new blood. I think if anything 5e managed, successfully, to attract young players in ways that few other games have done, as well as attracting players that abandoned the game during the 4e era. Right now I see their advantage is that they are, essentially, the ultimate noob-friendly Rpg, and they are the standard like never before. Maybe they could make a bunch of modular expansions so people with specific tastes can be peeled away from their niches but as far as broad appeal goes I think they are doing about as well as they can. I still think the optimum strategy is to make money using a D&D expanded universe and make games, t-shirts and action figures so they can market it to an audience that doesn't play at all, and which is many times larger.

You have three options:
1. Fifth edition
2. an older edition or a different good game [...]
or 3. The gatekeeped communities of the OSR.
So really, for the new wave players coming in with progressive leftist thinking, its 5e or nothing. The company will go where it thinks it will make the most money and then look around to appeal to more people because it isn't enough to make a lot of money, they have to make all the money in the world.

But if you expand option 2 it looks like this.
2. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. Call of Cthulhu. FateCore. World of Darkness. Pathfinder. Stars Without Number. Shadows of Esteren. RuneQuest. Dungeonworld. Powered by Apocalypse. [List goes on for 100+ entries].

You can find games of varying complexity ranging from stupid to impossible within that set, so I don't think that will be a deterrent.

3. Gatekeeped communities of the OSR.
It is probably a bit harder to get into then the average but I don't think its any different then, say, wargaming. It's not for everyone but then again I don't think it should ever strive to be.

So I did some googling.

Forty Percent of Dungeons & Dragons Players Are 25 or Younger

Dungeons & Dragons is experiencing a major youth movement right now, with 40% of players being 25 [...]

comicbook.com

It says about 40% is under 25, that's pretty significant, and 39% identifies as female, both tend to be more left-leaning, so I think I agree with you perfunctorily on the source of the influx, even if what we describe as 'progressive thinking' is a subset of that. However, there is a difference between a rebranding to appeal to a changing audience and a situation where entertainment is subverted to spread a political message. I think once the latter changes to the degree that the company stops trying to appeal to a broad customer base and instead becomes focused on spreading a political ideology, even at the expense of a customer base, then it will alienate since it is no longer trying to be entertaining. Once you start purging your ranks of dissenters, haranguing your customer base and apologizing for imagined wrongs I think its a matter of time before you start losing customers. There is a 4th option. People can always do something else with their time, particularly if they are not heavily invested to begin with, and entertainment in general is pretty abundant. Complex boardgames, video games, miniatures, trading cards you name it. You might have an audience of 40% 25 year olds, but who are the people that are going to be buying all your books and miniatures? Not poor Polly Polyamorous the recently graduated social science major with 100k debt and plays once a month at conventions. That's going to be Dwayne Lesmon IV, the 41 year old, 200 pound brony Java programmer with disposable income, an empty flat, and no interest in the female sex.

Mmm. Reaching. No proof. It's a solid possibility, but equally, there are tons of GM's and new blood players who are interested equally in the history and the philosophy of these games, in addition to the developers of games looking around at what's interesting. Some, maybe a majority, will likely go the conservative route, but the group that will affect the industry as a whole via innovation or by being a vocal and monetary support for varied ideas are likely to be more considered and... connoisseur-like than I think you're giving credit. I have more to say on this topic, but I'll save it for another thread later.

I did say I thought this was the case as I am of course not sure. Questions like this eventually fall down to speculation, but that is also what makes them interesting. Consider me interested in the next thread.

WOTC won't respond to it, not for a long time. But TTRPG developers already are. Pathfinder 2e was a response. Half of what the OSR communities are talking about these days are responding directly to the effect that 5e is having on the industry. Someone will eventually have a GOOD response, and WOTC will have to acknowledge it. For now though, you're right. We're a ways off.

Hmn, point, but I think (I don't have all the hard data) we might be talking different economies of scale here. Or to rephrase my point, I don't think Dwayne Lesmon coming up with the ultimate perfect system is going to be any good without an accompanying infrastructure to leverage it. That requires start up capital that is, frankly, unfeasible for any of its current competitors. I think 5e must collapse from within by mismanagement, Disney must start its own RPG-line or else 5e can probably maintain its position indefinitely while its market remains intact. We might still see the odd innovative system gain traction but what is to prevent Wizbro from bringing out a modular, yet optional expansion to 5e and just copying it. Rules or playstyle are very easily copied. Some sort of cool setting? Those tend to do well because they are specific, but that means a niche. I could be damn wrong, and D&D has had new editions before while the old ones remained viable (like 3-4e) so who knows, it might be better to get a new edition once you have lost all your old game-designers, I don't know corporate practice around these things.

I found a graph for player base on Roll20 alone.

How many people are playing D&D compared to other tabletop RPGs?

The Orr Report from Roll20 is a rare look at player populations

www.polygon.com

 

[HypthtcllySpkng]

Guilty. Love em to bits. I think thus far the only truly great fantasy series this century has produced.

Hard agree. For those that don't know: You take Tolkein's depth of history (say the Silmarillion), add in a writer who went to school for philosophy and exercises a depth of thought that most books are afraid to, throw in a holy war and the best depictions of both a monk class and barbarian class I've ever seen. Add in magic that is sin to the gods, and wizards that acknowledge that what they do is sin. Add in a grimdark fantasy setting, some of the more interesting villains I can think of (especially the No-God) and for shits and giggles: toss in aliens. You'll have something that maybe resembles the Prince of Nothing series, but it'll still exceed your expectations.

That said, I do think Malazan: Book of the Fallen (a series, if you haven't read it) was equally as good, albeit for entirely different reasons. And some of that series came out this century.

I have little to add for the moment, but here's the 2020 followup to the Roll20 graph Prince posted.

2020 Graph for DND player involvement

I think the numbers might be biased a bit here, as Roll20 does lend itself to DND and CoC over other games, and has partnerships with and marketing for both. So does Fantasy Grounds though. 5E and Pathfinder, according to this. Can't find 2020's numbers anywhere.

FG usage stats

Still, Prince's assessment holds up. For better or worse, 5e is a behemoth. There's a bit there in the Roll20 link about the OSR too though.

 

[squeen]

I would say Roll20 is obviously going to skew heavily towards 5e/newer players---not that the statistics aren't necessarily representative of the hobby at large---but I wouldn't cite Roll20 stats as definitive for all D&D gamers.

Popularity is one metric...it usually tells me what to avoid.

 

[HypthtcllySpkng]

I would say Roll20 is obviously going to skew heavily towards 5e/newer players---not that the statistics aren't necessarily representative of the hobby at large---but I wouldn't cite Roll20 stats as definitive for all D&D gamers.

It also skews towards games that are more accessible to a digital environment and games that can be licensed well to the respective platform. There's definitely some bias in the numbers, but it can be extrapolated from. Some games that are great games and critics recognize as such, don't even show up on these lists.

 

[squeen]

The most thought-proving point you (@HypthtcllySpkng) raise is the division between the OSR "as a movement" and the OSR as a play-style.

The "OSR movement" is something I witnessed the tail-end of, getting back into D&D 'late' around 2012 after a 20+ year hiatus. What I saw was also mostly via the blogosphere, since I avoid the social media channels. It was fascinating, confusing, and exhilarating to see so much buzz about a hobby that used to be very much on the fringes. It took me a long time lurking to figure out what the heck was going on---and I agree Blue Medusa seems to be some sort of high-water marked: regarded as the "Best" the movement could produce. It's self-assessed Sgt. Pepper's. It wasn't long after that things started to unravel: Zak-gate, Stewart selling his only copy of the Blue Medusa, Google+ gone, Grognardia down, Dungeon of Signs down, Melan's and other "End of the OSR" posts, etc.

However, OSR-as-Movement is mainly of an acedemic/social interest---like Punk Rock, or Cubism as movement. A fad. A trend. What's popular. Blah.

Even after it's "over" some folk will continue to experiment with it's essence---or borrow its elements and move on into new territory. I think that's happening now. Sure, we are "post-OSR-movement", but not "post OSR-playstyle".

Blue Medusa was some sort of apex---but when I bought it and looked very closely at it...I found it unplayable. It was performance art for a crowd I didn't swing with. Too edgy and mature (and roleplay-y?)---not my tastes at all. Written by and for cool kids in their 20's obsessed with sex and being popular. For me, a Dead End. And most importantly, not really D&D. It think it thought it was a better D&D, but (perhaps) when it became apparent to other (like me) that it was something else...that it had gone so far afield that it was now something completely different from why I had dragged out those old books---suddenly the Emperor Had No Clothes, and I was looking elsewhere for inspiration. I landed on Byrce's review blog. He seemed to be much more about the at-the-table-experience, as opposed to performance art. It wasn't long after we had this explosive thread about "What is D&D?", instigated by @Yora ---a gamer that has now abandoned D&D altogether in favor of a more story-driven game.

I think Prince is wrong about Veins of the Earth. To my mind it never had the buzz that MotBM had. It wasn't an adventure, ergo it did not replace what had come before it from the Classic Age.

Back to OSR-as-movement: who cares about tends---it doesn't directly affect my game? Like all that is popular (e.g. the hippy counter-culture/folk-music rvival), it will be absorbed in the larger society (D&D has already in many ways) while simultaneous losing it's essence and identity. This is 5e to me. D&D for the masses. It caters to "What do players want from their D&D?". The goal being primarily sales. "Purists" who want D&D to just be D&D and don't give a damn if the majority of people are attracted to it are getting labeled as haters, misogynists, gatekeepers, or worse. In short: forcibly pushed aside by the next generation who want to take D&D in a direction that caters to their tastes (and yes, youth leans liberal i.e. no-more-of-my-parent's-rules-whee!)---not realizing the product is already totally opened-end if you aren't a lazy sack-of-potates that needs a corporate sponsor to create content for you.

As a nod to 5e players: I fully accept that your can recast 5e into an old-school style (assuming you understand what that really is), but that's not what's happening by-and-large, and the majority or new DMs have no clue that's even a thing. They buy the 5e books and have no reference point to make them think those are anything other than "how D&D has always been". They then take their cue from those internet play-shows which are easily-consumable audience-facing entertainment---exactly what the 2nd sentence of the previous paragraph states will happen.

On 5e play-style: You talk about the 'start of the OSR' as OSRIC. If you haven't read Matt Finch's blog go take a gander. It's like a time machine about what was going through his mind when he (a lawyer) decided to tackle the task of using the OGL to first create an AD&D (1e) clone in OSRIC, and then (and this is important!) Swords & Wizardry: an OD&D (0e). His realization that people wanted a "rules light" D&D more that a AD&D clone was significant. That's what 5e tried to serve up, and that's why 5e's popularity surged---surpassing the Holmes Basic Set (previous high-water mark?). Accessibility to new players via game-simplification. 4e had gone all video-gamer-niche and failed (just like AD&D had gone all hard-core D&D player-niche and suffered too). Time to reset and get back in sync with the formula that worked. Simple fun anyone can pick up and "wing". Rules-Light was the sub-fad inside the OSR that arrived towards it's tail-end. (Stupid one-page dungeons of course took it too far in order to help define the sweet-spot...)

Trending now?: If there's a hobbyists/OSR trend now I'd call it "professional editing"---i.e. stop writing content like an amateur or performance artist...instead make it succinct and usable. Products to use, not bedtime reading. Case and point: one of the recent products that I've seen with the most play-reports (and admittedly, I continue to fall further outside the mainstream as I've learned there are a lot of blogs out there playing a game I have no interest in experiencing) is Melan's Castle Xyntillan (S&W). While there are a few others that have come out recently that are of similar high quality, Castle X seems to be universally regarded as 'playable' and 'good'. However, with a print run of only 400(?), I am probably just talking about a tiny niche-market. ... Still, as with all trends, there is a historical genesis point. In many ways Castle X is the product Maze of the Blue Medusa pretended to be without all the hipster BS. It's a D&D product, as oppose to an "RPG product" (whatever that is).

What's going to happen with 5e and mainstream D&D? We'll only know in retrospective. I predict 5e with burn itself out like all fads. You are right digital with replace pen & paper (even among the grognards!) because of remote-play and the problems it solves...until someone feels the exploitation of a steady drip of funds out of your pocket to the digital-providers is unnecessary, and then there with be ANOTHER old-school revival when people realize they don't need all that to have fun. Heck, we'll be so sick of "screen time" in 10 years...anything that doesn't involve a computer will feel like a revelation! The amateur DIY will re-surge and revitalize an industry leeched dry by heartless greed (kind of what happened with the OSR too...getting drowned in sewage by the RPGdriveThru/I'm-a-gonna-get-rich nonsense).

Remember this: You will succeed at what you put your energy towards. If you are trying to make money, then that's what you'll make---but that's all you will make. The product will be unimaginative crap---generate by asking focus groups "what do you want?". (...and eventually you will degenerate into selling a financial non-product/service like a credit card right before obscurity/irrelevance, e.g. Tim Cook's Apple, Jack Walsh's General Electric, etc.).

Long live D&D.

 

[HypthtcllySpkng]

I agree overall. but did notice this:

Blue Medusa was some sort of apex---but when I bought it and looked very closely at it...I found it unplayable. It was performance art for a crowd I didn't swing with. Too edgy and mature (and roleplay-y?)---not my tastes at all. -----
---- I was looking elsewhere for inspiration. I landed on Byrce's review blog. He seemed to be much more about the at-the-table-experience, as opposed to performance art.

But Bryce liked Blue Medusa, or so his review leads me to believe? eh... shrugs

My feeling was that Blue Medusa was an attempt at going for the sort of Dark Souls motif, which OSR lends itself to overall. The style of writing, the expected difficulty, etc. It did feel to me to be performative, in the sense that I felt it was intended as much to be played as a module as it was to be entertaining to the DM as you read it. That's not inherently bad. If the module's good, and its story is good, why not highlight that with fun prose and interesting plot points and lore? The opposite of that is a module that's all stat blocks and cliff notes, and that's equally as unusable really, if only due to me not finishing reading the module. I like to be entertained I suppose.

Veins is a similar offender in this regard. It definitely reads in an entertaining fashion and feels like material for the DM to be inspired by and soak in. But it's less practically usable, in that it takes work to put any of it into real play. Was I to take the bare bones of Blue Medusa, in parts its equally unusable, but as a singular experience at the table, all told, combined, and in a single dungeon, it's quite poignant. I have a hard time deciding to put it in any specific system though. Seems it would play equally in 5e as in Lamentations, and require the same amount of work in either case.

The professional editing trend is also happening in the 5e world too, not just OSR. Even in homebrew stuff like you'd find on r/UnearthedArcana, there's a significant trend towards an appropriate display of information and ease of use, as much as rules-light aspects or artistic presentation or inclusion of well-written prose. I imagine we'll see that explored much more as time goes on.

 

[squeen]

The professional editing trend is also happening in the 5e world too, not just OSR.

I do get the feeling, on the recent 5e stuff I've seen reviewed, that they have their ear-to-the-wall so to speak---ease-dropping on what is being written and discussed on-line . That's generally a good thing.

With MotBM, I felt like I couldn't really riff off of the bizarre artistic/disaffectedly-hip characters in it. I lack the sensibilities to make those personalities come alive. Their motives seemed alien. The results, which I imagine, should turn into a raucous/witty conversation = great-time-had-by-all, might require a level of clever, wandering social banter that I thought would exceeded my (and my player's) meager raconteur skills. I may have been misjudging how well things might play out, but that was my personal impression---I was not energized to play it. Maybe now, four year on, I should go back and look it over again to see how it's aged (or if I've changed too). I do know this: I am not very interested in which monster wants to have sex with which other monsters---but that should be easy enough to edit out. (Excessive humanization?)

I am not sure why @bryce0lynch holds it in such high esteem. Was he under the spell of the Zeitgeist?
He would have to speak for himself.

 

[EOTB]

The OSR happened when people who didn't play old games got bored with what they had and swung around to see what people who were never bored with what they played, were doing. And then they analyzed it and made content with the assumptions behind old school play.

That may happen again with a different set of people who become bored with what they have; it may not. That first generation of RPGs will always have a legitimacy and built-in "let's check it out" factor that later gens do not.

If it never happens, I'm fine with that. It didn't start to attract that effect.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Hard agree. For those that don't know: You take Tolkein's depth of history (say the Silmarillion), add in a writer who went to school for philosophy and exercises a depth of thought that most books are afraid to, throw in a holy war and the best depictions of both a monk class and barbarian class I've ever seen. Add in magic that is sin to the gods, and wizards that acknowledge that what they do is sin. Add in a grimdark fantasy setting, some of the more interesting villains I can think of (especially the No-God) and for shits and giggles: toss in aliens. You'll have something that maybe resembles the Prince of Nothing series, but it'll still exceed your expectations.

You get to live. I will eat you last.

PoN and ESPECIALLY Aspect Emperor series is without question the best Grimdark setting ever written, not because its violent and brutal, though assuredly it is that beyond all others, but because it is disconcerting on the meta-physical level. And it manages to do some interesting philosophizing, pessimistic, but interesting, about the self-deceiving nature of human beings and cognitive heuristics while ending with a spectacular siege that is clearly meant as a challenger to the Fall of Gondolin. By the end of The Great Ordeal the book has all the nightmarish incoherence of a paint-huffing McCarthy while maintaining coherence long enough to actually have it pay off. The Unholy Consult was a fucking masterpiece of hell. This coupled with great characters, poetic language and mature, uncompromising portrayal of ancient cultures and the nature of faith. Very insightful. The good stuff.

I'd never presume to compare it to the Silmarillion but it does span about the same time and...area, for lack of a better word? History and pre-history and deep time. The scope of the conflict extends beyond the spheres of the mundane world an into the Outer Spheres. The contrast with Tolkien is the maddening ambiguity of the whole. The series builds up to a shattering conclusion that crashes your moral framework, forcing introspection, and ends with what is probably the most elegant fuck you I have ever read, a resounding crescendo to illustrate the size of the world when compared to human ambition. But the scope of the work transforms what could be sobering or depressing into something that rather, provokes awe. I don't know anything like it. There was a rumor that Bakker might do another duology after Unholy Consult. I hope he never does.

I'd talk more about books, but we have a booktalk topic.

As for attracting new players, I think the best way to kill anything remotely interesting about a hobby is to bend backward and twist yourself into a curve in order to placate other people, especially young people whose morals and minds are not fully formed, in order to attract them in the name of relevance. No one was there to introduce me to D&D, I started after the oldschool was gone I am happy it was there to see it return and there is no reason anyone else can't do the same. Why would you respect someone if the first thing they do is walk all over their own practices in an effort to placate you?

Maybe some of the people I play Basic D&D with will pick it up after our game has ended, or maybe they will play 5e. But I have a sneaking suspicion that they will yearn for the old ways, when hit points are scarce, and abilities are few, and men live by their wits and the single roll of a twenty-sided dice.

It wasn't long after that things started to unravel: Zak-gate, Stewart selling his only copy of the Blue Medusa, Google+ gone, Grognardia down, Dungeon of Signs down, Melan's and other "End of the OSR" posts, etc

Excluding Melan's post, which was excellent, I will voice the opinion that the OSR was not a bunch of pink-mohawk vape-hipsters arguing on Google+, the OSR is a movement of mostly amateurs that put out good stuff, and that hasn't stopped. Bat in the Attic kickstarter, OSE etc. etc. I'll have to do Blue Medusa I guess.

 

[squeen]

Excluding Melan's post, which was excellent, I will voice the opinion that the OSR was not a bunch of pink-mohawk vape-hipsters arguing on Google+, the OSR is a movement of mostly amateurs that put out good stuff, and that hasn't stopped. Bat in the Attic kickstarter, OSE etc. etc. I'll have to do Blue Medusa I guess.

Not trying to disparage the OSR core --- in fact, at first, I was "all in" (as in "Yeah buddy! Let's bring back what made OD&D great!") until I slowly realized there were a bunch of different wagons, all going in different directions---and if I wasn't careful, I'd end up on the road to Warhammer 4K without even realizing it...which may now be (or was?) "OSR"...but ain't my OSR.

To your point, there are those that have stayed the course, like Melan, who didn't get caught up in all the weird RPG Multiverse.

"The OSR Movement" (all caps), I think came after the 1st-wave of clones (LL/OSRIC/S&W) OSR which were strictly preservative.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

"The OSR Movement" (all caps), I think came after the 1st-wave of clones (LL/OSRIC/S&W) OSR which were strictly preservative.

Here's the thing that strikes a nerve for me: that word, preservative. To say the OSR is a strictly preservative movement is not entirely accurate.

Products don't need preserving in the Information Age. It's all available somewhere. Hell, you can still buy an OD&D whitebox set on Amazon, TODAY. And everything that's ever been published has been already been scanned, re-sold, and can be printed from the comfort of your own home. There is no need to preserve any product, because it's already done.

But I think you already know this, and are instead talking about preserving the game style or feel or whatever nostalgia you're trying to bottle, yes? Life in a simpler time?

You make it sound like going to Colonial Williamsburg and having an OSR guide go round and say "this is the THAC0 - in old days, we used it to calculate hit chances". That's preservation... that's what an OSR designed to preserve would look like.

No, the real OSR is more akin to the Williamsburg Gift Shop - "Own this little replica relic from a simpler time. Remember when we all churned butter by hand got our experience from gold?". Nostalgia is cool and all, but if you still churn butter by hand roll a d100 after scoring an 18 STR score and try to tell me you do it "for preservation", then I'm going to look at you funny. That's OSR, to me.