Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
No Artpunk 3 is out. PWYW.
The state of Post-OSR content
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DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
*cough* just-wanna-say-real-quick-that-prince-totally-ripped-off-my-contest-idea *cough cough*
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
A recent Grognardia has me thinking a lot about the State of the BlowSR lately. It has me trying to put my finger on what went away. I think what I'm missing is that DIY ethic, the cooperation, and the creativity. I used to come away from a trip down the rabbit hole energized and full of ideas and I'm not getting that high anymore. But it's not like people quit. GusL never finished his megadungeon in a drifting freighter, but he's still pumping out stuff. False Machine got weirder and somehow more wordy, but he's still offering a crazy ride on his stream of conscious. Bat in the Attic slowed down a bit, but he's still sharing his thought processes. I dunno. There's definitely casualties. I miss the Hydra Collective even if Unfathomable seemed to be their undoing. I was also sad to see the Black City poop out.
All in all though, there's still people throwing stuff up there for people to see. It just feels...less collaborative theses days. Less inviting. I don't know why. Maybe the edition wars have made me cynical. It's not like the scene is dead, it just feels uninviting?
And yeah, a lot of people have been going over to YouTube. I want to support folks like the Alexandrian, but for some reason, I can take a half an hour to read his prodigious posts, but I start to fidget watching or listening. Like I'm not absorbing any of the information. For sure, I've got 10 minutes to listen to Professor DM lament another WotC blunder, but when it comes to actual campaign advice, I'd rather see it in writing.
Anyway, I'm more incoherent than usual on this subject, but it's definitely on my mind.
All in all though, there's still people throwing stuff up there for people to see. It just feels...less collaborative theses days. Less inviting. I don't know why. Maybe the edition wars have made me cynical. It's not like the scene is dead, it just feels uninviting?
And yeah, a lot of people have been going over to YouTube. I want to support folks like the Alexandrian, but for some reason, I can take a half an hour to read his prodigious posts, but I start to fidget watching or listening. Like I'm not absorbing any of the information. For sure, I've got 10 minutes to listen to Professor DM lament another WotC blunder, but when it comes to actual campaign advice, I'd rather see it in writing.
Anyway, I'm more incoherent than usual on this subject, but it's definitely on my mind.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
I think that 'uninviting' feeling has always been there in my experience...a little bit anyways.
I'm enjoying doing my own thing now instead of constantly debating or arguing with others--which, that platform (debating) seems to have drastically changed in the last few years and even last 7 months....which has probably led to that even more 'uninviting' feeling rather than good discussions and opening minds to new ways to look at things.
I'm enjoying doing my own thing now instead of constantly debating or arguing with others--which, that platform (debating) seems to have drastically changed in the last few years and even last 7 months....which has probably led to that even more 'uninviting' feeling rather than good discussions and opening minds to new ways to look at things.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I noticed a similar vibe when nerd culture went mainstream back in the early 2010s. We nerds who had been hiding in the shadows coding our programs, collecting our collectibles, and playing our dice games, were all a little peeved at all folk coming in with this "oh, I've always been nerdy! Look at my Doctor Who Funko Pops" attitude, like they hadn't been the ones right alongside the rest laughing and bullying and excluding. It felt like stolen valor. They didn't earn their right to participate. To us, they had merely adopted the nerdiness - we we born in it, molded by it.
It made us angry, unable to grasp the bigger picture benefits that nerdy stuff was finally being accepted as mainstream; that our pool of cool stuff we really liked was growing bigger and our options were flourishing. Instead of saying "hey, now I have more access to the stuff I like, and people aren't shunning me for it anymore!", we OGs would rather be angry at "false nerds" touting cred they never earned through the jeers of schoolyard taunts and the rejection we faced daily. I admit I was one of them, looking down my nose at the cosplayers of modern Comicon who were only there because it was in vogue.
Then, when I sat back and took a good look at it, I realized it was a foolish, immature mindset. These people may have been poseurs, but being angry at them for it didn't help anything. "A grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die", as the adage goes. I could drink my poison, or I could be glad that the people of today don't have to suffer in the same way I had to suffer for my passions. I have since chosen the latter.
I think grogs who hold that uninviting feeling haven't hit that epiphany yet. They don't realize that being inclusive and embracing the growth ultimately makes you happier, not more miserable. Life is too short for that shit, you know?
It made us angry, unable to grasp the bigger picture benefits that nerdy stuff was finally being accepted as mainstream; that our pool of cool stuff we really liked was growing bigger and our options were flourishing. Instead of saying "hey, now I have more access to the stuff I like, and people aren't shunning me for it anymore!", we OGs would rather be angry at "false nerds" touting cred they never earned through the jeers of schoolyard taunts and the rejection we faced daily. I admit I was one of them, looking down my nose at the cosplayers of modern Comicon who were only there because it was in vogue.
Then, when I sat back and took a good look at it, I realized it was a foolish, immature mindset. These people may have been poseurs, but being angry at them for it didn't help anything. "A grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die", as the adage goes. I could drink my poison, or I could be glad that the people of today don't have to suffer in the same way I had to suffer for my passions. I have since chosen the latter.
I think grogs who hold that uninviting feeling haven't hit that epiphany yet. They don't realize that being inclusive and embracing the growth ultimately makes you happier, not more miserable. Life is too short for that shit, you know?
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
As someone who still has to put up with flak about my preferred edition, the OSR was never particularly inviting. I got way less flack in high school for playing D&D than I get in the blogosphere for playing 4e. And by less, I mean none, nobody IRL ever had any issues with my gaming.
It is only in on-line spaces that I get any grief. I don't get in a lot of arguments any more, but that's more because I'm tired of arguing so I let stuff slide, and I avoid most of those people and spaces now.
To the point that things have slowed down, I think there were a finite number of new ideas (or ideas rediscovered) coming out of the OSR, and they have been pretty talked out.
It is only in on-line spaces that I get any grief. I don't get in a lot of arguments any more, but that's more because I'm tired of arguing so I let stuff slide, and I avoid most of those people and spaces now.
To the point that things have slowed down, I think there were a finite number of new ideas (or ideas rediscovered) coming out of the OSR, and they have been pretty talked out.
I'm like this too. I can sneak reading in here and there throughout my day, but audio and especially video require blocks of time and environments that mostly don't exist with me.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
That checks out. Obviously you're going to get targeted more online than in school, seeing as you presumably aren't in school anymore, and now the internet is a cesspool of opinion. It's not like it's especially hard to start a blog or anything. Literally zero barrier to entry. I'd have no problem with the OSR blogosphere if they'd stop shitting on everything that wasn't their preferred edition, especially since they seem to target 5e (my current edition) more than anything else.
4e is especially derided, for whatever reason - I think because it was seen as this "perversion" of D&D with the "taint" of MMOs like WoW, what with the elaborate superpowers and focus on tactical movement and whatnot. If you squinted, you could kinda make 3e look a little like older D&D; less so with 4e. It's too jarring for the people who claimed ownership over this thing they grew up with.
If you were left alone in your youth, you were lucky. Many of us weren't so lucky. I brought my AD&D books to school once in the 8th grade, and another kid literally snatched them away and vandalized my Monster Manual. Kids are jerks. But then, as you say, a lot of adults are jerks too.
4e is especially derided, for whatever reason - I think because it was seen as this "perversion" of D&D with the "taint" of MMOs like WoW, what with the elaborate superpowers and focus on tactical movement and whatnot. If you squinted, you could kinda make 3e look a little like older D&D; less so with 4e. It's too jarring for the people who claimed ownership over this thing they grew up with.
If you were left alone in your youth, you were lucky. Many of us weren't so lucky. I brought my AD&D books to school once in the 8th grade, and another kid literally snatched them away and vandalized my Monster Manual. Kids are jerks. But then, as you say, a lot of adults are jerks too.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I know I was lucky. My grade was blessed with a lot of decent people, who didn't much fuss about cliques. I read LotR and other fantasy and SF books openly in junior high, watched Star Trek, was into what passed for decent sci-fi and fantasy movies and shows at the time, and nobody seemed to care. In high school I played D&D a couple of times at lunch in the cafeteria, with some definitely not nerdy or unpopular kids. The majority of my regular group were involved in high school athletics. I was occasionally nervous to talk about it with people I didn't know, but that was because of reading about other people's experiences, not because I had any negative experiences of my own.
The thing is, I get why people had negative experiences with 4e. The vast majority of 4e modules suuuucked. Like, not the usual 80/20 thing, more like 97/3. It was a real low point for module writing. They took the worst examples from the 3e period in terms of formatting and said, "Let's lean into that." And it became obvious over time that WotC's style guide didn't just dictate formatting, but also the types of encounter. I am pretty sure that every module had to include a structured "roleplay encounter," and I am nearly positive that not a single WotC 4e module was published without a Skill Challenge.
"Roleplay encounter" is what I am calling non-adversarial social encounters; being non-adversarial, they usually amounted to either exposition, or chatting with the questgiver for a while before getting the quest. With nothing at stake, they don't accomplish much in the game unless you like a style of play that includes performing your character, regardless of whether the performance has any impact on actual play.
If a social encounter had an element of risk - that is, the outcome theoretically has an impact on the advancement of the game - it would be resolved using a Skill Challenge. Which is a garbage mechanic, which nobody will even defend in hard core 4e forums. But the advice, and the implementation in modules, made it clear that you were expected to use the miserable mechanic to resolve out-of-combat encounters that have any risk and complexity.
So you had these two mandated structures for social interaction with NPCs, AND you have a standard format for combat encounters, and nothing to bridge the gap. And that effectively means that virtually all encounters that might involve combat, will involve combat. Because even the simplest Skill Challenge is somewhat complex and needs to be prepared in advance by the module writer (not to mention taking up a lot of print space), and because set-piece battles are also complex and must be prepared in advance by a module writer. It creates a real disincentive to adding the possibility of parley to an encounter, because you would have to prepare both for each such encounter. And the page limits might make it impossible anyway.
And it is made even worse by the design choice (which as far as I can tell originated the later 3.5 period), of separating the map/encounter key from the "combat encounter" information. This tended to happen a lot in the bigger modules. The keyed entries are laconic, and the set piece section descibes the environment solely from a tactical point of view. There is absolutely no support for the DM if the players want to talk to team monster, or the DM maybe doesn't want every moster to attack on sight and fight to the death.
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The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
The internet has *always* been a horrible cesspool of opinion. It's also been a wondrous place where you can find your tribe. It all balances out I suppose.
The OSR blogosphere is probably winding down due to the age of its cohort. Real life gets too busy and the impetus to shout out over the rooftops goes down as you get older. And you mellow out. Well most people do.
Mortality beckons. The zeitgeist has moved on to other things, and other games.
The Heretic
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
At least in the internet's infancy the opinions were confined to the people who knew the labyrinthian routes to find them, through usenet and such. The main face of the net didn't exist quite yet, and the rest of us were blissfully unaware unless we sought it. Social media wasn't a thing, Google wasn't a thing, Youtube wasn't a thing - it was tough to accidentally stumble onto a shitty echo chamber or someone's puffed-up ego. Cesspool's may have existed, but there was a kiddie pool of fresh clean water right over there that drew most of us like so many Flash animations and AOL groups. Opinion is an infinite resource though; the blogs will never die off until the free hosting platforms die off first. Once people have to invest their real-life money into hosting a site, they'll be a lot more reluctant to prop up a non-profitable blog when they could just dump onto Reddit or whatever. I mean, what was more detrimental to the OSR sphere: people aging, or the death of G+? Because I see a hell of a lot of grey beards at those conventions...
As to 4e: I get it, social interactions are tough to codify, since you can't account for everything that will be said by everyone. Unfortunately, folk are equally as unhappy if you try to build rules around them - "PURSUASION CHECKS!?!? ANSWERS AREN'T ON THE CHARACTER SHEET! GRRR BAD D&D! GRRR!". It's why I don't run modules/premade adventures very much anymore; a campaign of improvisation based on specific situation is more fun to my players than a million scripted combat encounters. A good DM should be able to support themselves.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Yeah, I've encountered a surprising number of folks out here in the blogs and forums who encountered zero stigma for their hobby other than maybe the cartoonish ridiculousness of the satanic panic.
I seriously had to endure a series of fistfights after starting a D&D club at one of my highschools. At another highschool I went to, D&D was like a secret society; you had to figure out its practitioners through secret cues and it was never discussed openly around normies. Gaming was social death for years.
For sure, it was threatening to have this space I won with literal blood and tears colonized by confident, happy people, but like you I eventually came to see it as a good thing. The victory I had sought all along. I guess that's why I get kind of militant around gate keepers.
That said, I don't think gate keeping is the problem here. Beoric is getting close to it with his suggestion that everything there is to be said has been said. The zeitgeist has moved on. But, I don't think that's quite it either. As I said, there are still creators out there, freely sharing their work, but for some reason, it just feels less collaborative, or like if I grab someone's idea and run with it, they're going to be outraged at the perceived theft or colonization of their intellectual real estate.
Maybe I'm just imagining that?
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Thought provoking as always, E. You're right, part of what used to get me going were discussions of game theory, which would get me thinking about how I wanted to write. A lot of those discussions turned into dogma (Jacquaying the dungeon, terse evocative text, etc) which had a chilling effect on further exploration, for sure. I don't think these discussions are completely dead; the Blue Bard's essays on AD&D crunch are fascinating.
I'd love to see more stuff written about more abstract theory that transcends editions. (I understand that certain editions lend themselves more to certain styles of play, nonetheless...) Once again, this kind of talk is easier (for me at least) to digest in a written form, though, and I'm seeing a lot more of it pop up on YouTube.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Be the change you want to see in the world, my dude. All it takes is starting a thread on a forum where folks congregate to (theoretically) talk about RPG game dynamics.
robertsconley
Should be playing D&D instead
Most of my writing time these days goes into finishing projects. I basically ran out of the easy stuff a few years back. But when I generate something as a result of running a campaign, or doing something for the hell of it, I will share it regardless of how rough it is.
For example here
Stuff in the Attic
h2 style="text-align: center;"> Stuff in the Attic Box of Majestic Fantasy Stuff Majestic Fantasy Basic Rules Version 10 Basic Rules for...
batintheattic.blogspot.com
The basic gist is that I got a list and I am slowly working my way through it. After I get the Northern Marches done, I will be getting out Scourge of the Demon Wolf 2nd edition, followed by the full rules for my Majestic Fantasy RPGs. Which among other things will take a lot of my referee advice from my blog, clean it up, and nicely organize it. I have another sandbox adventure playtested, Deceits of the Russet Lord to type up as well as Towns of the Northern Marches, and finally a Gazetteer of the Majestic Fantasy Realms both of which didn't make it into the Northern Marches project.
It has been somewhat of a bane of my existence since I am partially deaf. But since the dawn of ChatGPT it not longer the issue it was. I just dump the transcript in and tell it to format into paragraphs and leave the working verbatim.
Again, ChatGPT and YouTube Auto transcripts do wonders.
Seems to make sense to me for what it's worth.
Agonarchartist
A FreshHell to Contend With
Yeah, I figured out stuff for me and started making that stuff. I think, broadly, it's been more more successful, being that key features have literally been integrated to the mainstream gaming scene.
*I* still collaborate in chat with all the current creators, they are the same people who were my compatriots in blogging. It's a class, right? New classes come and go in the college.
I'm making the best games you've never heard of, as a game designer who's influenced a whole generation of games. I'm fucking chuffed.
https://sinlessrpg.com
*I* still collaborate in chat with all the current creators, they are the same people who were my compatriots in blogging. It's a class, right? New classes come and go in the college.
I'm making the best games you've never heard of, as a game designer who's influenced a whole generation of games. I'm fucking chuffed.
https://sinlessrpg.com
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Ok, I have to admit, GPT-5 looks terrifying.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Yes it does....
I've been experimenting with Chatgpt a bit at work and as an editor...after a little bit I think I got better with it.
I also tried brainstorming with it and that was actually pretty cool. Came up with some cool stuff to DM that night.
Unfortunately.....because its scary....I'm finding it to be a cool tool to use.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I'm surprised that y'all are so surprised. Technology develops at an exponential rate; not in a linear fashion. AI has been tricking my parent's generation into believing all the stuff they read on Facebook for the past decade; why are we surprised that it can write entirely unique alliterative works and make works on par with humans by now?
This was two months ago
This was one month ago
There's some stuff you can see that's wonky (voice cadence and text mostly), and since that video came out, those things are already solved. Exponential improvements. In another few months, we will literally not be able to tell the difference.
This was two months ago
This was one month ago
There's some stuff you can see that's wonky (voice cadence and text mostly), and since that video came out, those things are already solved. Exponential improvements. In another few months, we will literally not be able to tell the difference.
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DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I'm not surprised about the "States with R's" thing - AI still can't read text (not really sure why that is; you'd think it'd be a pretty easy thing to teach a machine considering 5-year-olds can read text). It's why CAPTCHA still works to keep bots away. AI knows words, but not letters, apparently.
I played around with the base free ChatGPT model and got it to index all the letters used to spell all the State names so that it would reference the index to check for the presence of "R"s, and now it kinda worked (at least, my specific instance of it; still has South Dakota in there though) - not entirely sure why the original coders never bothered with stuff like that, but should be an easily-fixable issue (see below).
That being said, I have seen demos where it is able to get it right, so I think it's a solved problem now... it's just not on most publicly-available tools yet.
I played around with the base free ChatGPT model and got it to index all the letters used to spell all the State names so that it would reference the index to check for the presence of "R"s, and now it kinda worked (at least, my specific instance of it; still has South Dakota in there though) - not entirely sure why the original coders never bothered with stuff like that, but should be an easily-fixable issue (see below).
That being said, I have seen demos where it is able to get it right, so I think it's a solved problem now... it's just not on most publicly-available tools yet.