The state of Post-OSR content
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squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I dunno, they went out of the stress of the pandemic and into the stress of War in Europe, the return of Interstate Anarchy, etc. Nobody has dealt with this kind of world in 80 years, and most people are ill prepared to deal with it emotionally, but the Germans may have a better collective memory of what it all is likely to mean. I'm certainly having my own fatalistic, "why bother" moments ATM, and its taking a lot of discipline to stay on task and plan past the next few months.
So I wouldn't look any further than the stuff that is clearly actually happening, rather than wild, unsupported speculation.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Yep. If only the Internet could go back to being the greatest gift humanity has ever granted itself instead of this blasted hellscape of hatred and loneliness. Books like "Infomocracy" (fucking READ this book!) and "The Walkaway" were giving me hope for a post-scarcity society, but then The Upload (Season 3 out now on Amazon!) absolutely stomped on that (charmingly).
anyhoo
anyhoo
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
There's tons on how to render your Sandbox meaningful. Anyone seen anything on meaningful Looting? You're supposed to do a ton of it pay gp for XP, I thought that would motivate people to turn over every stone and regard large (like more than one building) abandoned ruins as absolute gold mines. But that's exactly it. The players are looking at looting as a mine that has to be laboriously mined and they don't want to do it.
I tried to spice it up with Encounters and plenty of Features to be discovered. But as I've said, I hate running random encounters because I find them tedious. They hate them because of the resource cost, so they're trying to get where they're going without lingering, and as a result, missing all the fun Features they could be unnearthing with their loot.
My answer was to drop in an Archive and a Map Room that allowed them to dig up some hooks to the more prominent Features, but I'm not going to be able to get away with that conceit all the time.
I tried to spice it up with Encounters and plenty of Features to be discovered. But as I've said, I hate running random encounters because I find them tedious. They hate them because of the resource cost, so they're trying to get where they're going without lingering, and as a result, missing all the fun Features they could be unnearthing with their loot.
My answer was to drop in an Archive and a Map Room that allowed them to dig up some hooks to the more prominent Features, but I'm not going to be able to get away with that conceit all the time.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I think Huso recently wrote a post on treasure, but I haven't read it yet. I diverge from the Bryce/Melan/Prince/EOTB school in that I don't usual put a lot of high-value scattered treasure in ubiquitously in places that don't seem logical, but instead make sensible hoards. I *think* that helps my players decide where the loot ought to be...but perhaps not.
I also have been "gamed" as a designer by my son. He purposely looks for weird, deep, undiscovered places because he know I tend to put the most exotic treasure there.
Also, I've said this many times over the years, but my players have their own goals---mostly revolving around acquiring world-prestige and prestige-items (if you know what I mean). That drives them more than just sucking up monetary/level accumulation tokens like a Hoover.
With the Sandbox, you have to get comfortable with the party glossing over and skipping huge sections. That's normal. What's cool is when they decide to return to an area years later---especially when you think they were uninterested or not paying attention, and it ends up they were just scheduling it after other priorities.
I also have been "gamed" as a designer by my son. He purposely looks for weird, deep, undiscovered places because he know I tend to put the most exotic treasure there.
Also, I've said this many times over the years, but my players have their own goals---mostly revolving around acquiring world-prestige and prestige-items (if you know what I mean). That drives them more than just sucking up monetary/level accumulation tokens like a Hoover.
With the Sandbox, you have to get comfortable with the party glossing over and skipping huge sections. That's normal. What's cool is when they decide to return to an area years later---especially when you think they were uninterested or not paying attention, and it ends up they were just scheduling it after other priorities.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Bluesky was a very pleasant haven for a while, hopefully it won't change too much now that it is open to all comers.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
See, if I was in your game I would hire someone to do the mining for me, and hire someone to supervise them. Which gives the opportunity to have a mini domain game, with claim jumpers, bandits, etc. But I expect, being a 3.PF game, there isn't a lot of hiring henchmen or men at arms (stat blocks being what they are) - if so, they probably aren't in the habit of thinking that way.
As an aside, there are certain classes in 4e that are really simple to run, and I make all available henchmen and hirelings belong to those classes. That way their addition doesn't slow down combat.
I can see why random encounters would be a slog in 3.PF. I know in my 4e game I greatly simplify them in comparison to set pieces, so they run pretty quickly. You might try stocking the random encounter tables with creatures that are simple to run and/or relatively easy to defeat - even if they only get a couple of hits in, they are still attritting HP. Or make the odd one really interesting, so they don't feel like a random encounter.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
They were actually talking about this after they acquired the claim to the mithril vain and repaired the prospecting endjinn. Then they drove the endjinn into the lake trying to get back into the Tesseract and ran out of fuel, and that was that. They're presently motivated to look for a new fuel supply which is cool. The claim jumpers and political factions were indeed gathering, but the party made good their escape by accident or on purpose (it's unclear) when they ditched that thing at the bottom of the 500' deep lake and hopped in an escape pod. Dudes, I wrote up mining rules (cribbed from "On Downtime and Demesnes", buy it now!), investing rules, outlines for the actions of the various factions if they went into partnership with one or the other of them. Pages of manic note taking...As @squeen mentioned, it'll all be there if they maybe come back to it someday
We hated henchmen all the way back in 2e. Pure greed. Common practice was to divide XP evenly, and no one liked sharing with the NPC's.
Okay, so I did this with those simplified stat blocks in Irradiated Paradox, but I got more fastedious with Spot Distances. Now a cautiously traveling/exploring party can avoid attrition, but as a result, they end up moving on a lot of the time before fully investigating an area. Also, they ended up avoiding a number of easter egg Encounters. Bearbear has ties to the Cult of Phaestus. It's not critical to the adventure, but if you chance upon him, it's some good luck. These guys randomly ran into that bear Four Times. He's a mean, grumpy bear, but each time, they got the drop on him from a distance and walked away, choosing to leave the wildlife alone. I did not see the modern conservationist mentality coming on that one, gotta say. I was expecting either "It's a massive dire beast! Kill it with Fire!" or "It's a fuzzy meatshield. I Charm it!"
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I want greedy looting to be the primary motivation for exploration of the ruined city in my fantasy heartbreaker campaign. I've been testing out the mechanics in this Tomb City, and the response has been underwhelming. I had to give them a bead on some big scores, which is fine, I'm sure I can rework that conceit, but I was hoping they would industrialize their greed a bit.
Reflecting on it. The grinding is fine in a CRPG, but sucks when you're enjoying time with your group. I want to keep it as a central motivation (like all the rival NPC's are doing it so, of the many things they might choose to do, this is always there as option 1 for things we can do today), but greatly simplify the mechanics and push it to the background like sleeping, eating and finding shelter. Like, you set out to rummage through this neighbourhood today, and here are some meaningful things that you see and that happen while you do that or instead of you doing that.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Which has me leaning more and more towards Sandboxes. But it can be a lot of content to create if you want it to be meaningful. (And is also extremely dissatisfying to consumers unless you're prepared to detail every feature on your map). I'm working off of short notes on what's in each Hex and I can often wing it til the end of session and then polish something up for the next, but a week isn't much time for a working person, and more often than not you end up dropping in a Dyson map with maybe some well thought out encounters, but it's unlikely that you'll come up with any truly meaningful interactive traps or tricks or items. The players end up feeling empty when they come away from these experiences. It's the TTRPG equivalent of CRPG grinding.
Also, these sandboxes are a BITCH for playtesting, lol. My guys veared off the Irradiated Paradox test to investigate the Tomb City of the Reptile Kings (due to a throwaway reference I added for flavour while the bard was doing research at the Pantheon Library) which has turned into a gloriously fun, year-long mess of totally unpublishable material.
Yeah.....heh...that's why it's taking forever to wrap up Vermilion and Coppercore. Playtesting....it's amazing how one little word or phrase or title and suddenly the PCs want to go check it out, which then expands the sandbox--but I kind of liked that because it helped me tie in these new areas with the old and solidify some things.
Treasure for XP is usually a easy motivation. But at my table, my players or when Im a player, we all have our own motivations that we find a lot cooler or fun than just treasure. So in order to tweak it...you need to change the motivation for treasure. If they don't care about XP gain...then make it a in-game motivation. Like 3 factions are trying to get enough loot to help build their rocketship to get off the planet first...one of the factions hires the PCs...or encourage a cleric to build a temple...the focus will be on a goal, rather than just loot.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Malrex! How's your latest irl hex crawl going? (Or has that yet to begin?)
NICE! A couple of BIG TICKET items to aim for (or to inspire the creation of their own Big Ticket targets). Things with obvious endgame benefits. Like, if only we could get this temple built we could attract that miracle worker who can cast True Resurrection; or if only we had an industrial hammer powered by a watermill, I could pound this rare metal into fabulous magical weapons and armour. Lay it out early so people can get their eyes on the prize. Elegant.
It'll be worth the wait! I hear what you're saying though. I ended up fleshing out a bunch of things which has ballooned the page count right out. I'm just wrapping up the last section and the appendices and then I'm afraid it will be a matter of massacring my darlings
It doesn't help that their seems to be some wobble in the court of public opinion as to what's the appropriate amount of Ready to Play vs DIY in a finished product. (I'm afraid the answer is: People just know when something is awesome and when it's not; making a surprising amount of writing sins acceptable.)
NICE! A couple of BIG TICKET items to aim for (or to inspire the creation of their own Big Ticket targets). Things with obvious endgame benefits. Like, if only we could get this temple built we could attract that miracle worker who can cast True Resurrection; or if only we had an industrial hammer powered by a watermill, I could pound this rare metal into fabulous magical weapons and armour. Lay it out early so people can get their eyes on the prize. Elegant.
It'll be worth the wait! I hear what you're saying though. I ended up fleshing out a bunch of things which has ballooned the page count right out. I'm just wrapping up the last section and the appendices and then I'm afraid it will be a matter of massacring my darlings
It doesn't help that their seems to be some wobble in the court of public opinion as to what's the appropriate amount of Ready to Play vs DIY in a finished product. (I'm afraid the answer is: People just know when something is awesome and when it's not; making a surprising amount of writing sins acceptable.)
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
I have conquered Patagonia...about 70 miles hiked. The videos are in production (my friend adds music, etc.). I don't talk about D&D much in Season 2 though, and I think it may be a little more boring than the PCT, but it is absolutely gorgeous in Patagonia. Should be coming out in the next few weeks.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
yes sir. It was an amazing trip. I feel pretty blessed to be able to go.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Fewer assholes, more control over your feed. I'm all for the marketplace of ideas, but a marketplace lets you avoid stores you aren't interested in, and kicks out merchants who are abusive or bad for business. Like, it isn't a breach of free speech for a shopping mall to refuse to rent space for a NAMBLA kink outlet. Whereas Twitter lets the merchants set up a booth in your kitchen and yell at you.
EDIT: Twitter is like a shopping mall where NAMBLA isn't just given a storefront, but its sales clerks harass and insult and throw creepy pamphlets at you in the food court while you are talking to your friends, and security has been instructed by the mall to let them do it. Guess what mall I'm not going to attend anymore?
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Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Yeah, its always a balancing act. Maybe your hidden stuff needs to be more lucrative? I dunno, I can never get the balance right either.
That works too.
I'm a fan of two different kinds of random encounters: intricate, open-ended ones to add complexity, and wandering deadly monsters to add time pressure.
As an example of the latter, let's say you're on the first level of a dungeon where a typical "fixed" encounter might be 2-4 skeletons rattling their chains in a locked cell somewhere, but then there's a 1 chance in 6 every half hour to roll on the wandering monster table for things coming from the deeper dungeon levels, e.g. 1-2 trolls or 2-5 wraiths. The metapurpose of these wandering monsters is to instill FEAR and therefore time pressure/suspense. (Make sure you roll the wandering monster checks even if players are safely forted up in a hidden location, just so you can say "you see 5 wraiths drifting by from the lower dungeon, but they don't notice you in your little barricaded nook".)
As an example of the former, think of all of those AD&D monster entries that have "number appearing: 30-300." If 286 orcs show up, that's not supposed to be a mere "combat encounter" that's over in a few moments one way or the other. That's practically an invading army, and you might begin interacting with them long before you meet them, by seeing empty fields, burning villages, or refugees trudging hopelessly along the road. The metapurpose of these kinds of random encounters is to add INTEREST and DYNAMISM to the world, to give players things to react to and play off of. It could be 30-300 orcs; it could be a traveling circus run by P.J. Barman with strongmen and acrobats for hire; it could be a sphinx occupying a key trade route and demanding riddling opponents or tribute; it could be an ancient battlefield generating spontaneous undead war parties. At any rate, it's not something I necessarily need the players to resolve right now so much as I need them to know that it's there, now, as part of the context of whatever else they're doing during this adventure. And of course if they do start digging up the battlefield looking for the source of the unrest, they'll find something worth their time.
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