Post Mortem & Results

[squeen]

Wow! 24 pages. Of course my eye goes first to the imagery. The maps are great (very clear and interesting)---seen a couple of these in the other thread. The Devourer has both a great name and an awesome visage.

Life is kicking my ass all over the place right now. Over at K&KA EOTB whipped out one of his typically wonderful axioms: "A man who chases two rabbits catching neither." That's been echoing in the hollow caverns of my mind since. That's where I'm at, big-time---running around like a fool, catching nothing.

Looking over ALL of this (and Bryce's book) are on my to-do list. Don't interpret my silence as a critique or apathy---just lack of time and energy. I've been able to create some stuff for my home game solely because we are playing weekly again and family game-night it a justifiable priority.

 

[squeen]

Here's my first suggestion: you should consider working in 2-column mode, even for a draft. It exposes a lot of layout issues, gives you a clue when you've rambled too long and need to tighten up you bullet-lists, tables, etc. I highly recommend it. What's more, when I review the PDF I also always use 2-page layout view so you know what's facing what, and little nuiances like when images should go in the outer column versus the inner.

 

[The1True]

For my final installment, I've got the Mutant Camp.

Slow week? How about ripping me a new one over here?! Yes, I've been reduced to abject begging...

 

[squeen]

Will do.

 

[squeen]

I am sorry man, work is crushing me right now...any free moment I have for D&D tonight is going into prep for this weekend's game.
Next week?...

 

[The1True]

Beggars can't be choosers bro

 

[squeen]

Getting started. I've got the PDFs open for Hell Crack and the Cursed Briar. Which of the two would you prefer first?

I apologize in advance if this sounds abrasive, but I've got a critics hat on right now (and not much time), so I'm just going to blurt out my negative impressions. I'll save the positives for a summary at the end. OK? There's a lot here that's visually impressive, but you want feedback on what's-not-to-like, correct?

Also, remember: I've published nothing. I also have antiquated tastes. These are just my thoughts in a vacuum. Be forewarned: Last time some someone asked for my opinion (Malrex) they got so pissed off they stopped speaking to me. /warning


First Impressions: One million points for "map up front", but in general, you have not been kind to your readers in presentation. The PDF is almost unreadable in my viewer because the giant images cause all the follow-up pages to be tiny. Sure, I can adjust my zoom scale for each page, but it doesn't read like I'm holding a book. Similarly, the bullet format and single-column is rough on the eye. I understand this a a rough draft on something you pulled the plug on, but can you honestly expect others to to take time to review (or appreciate) something that is clearly a work-in-progress? The implication is, "If it's not important enough for you to clean it up---why would people assume it's important for them to consider it? See where I'm going with this? Folks want something that looks production-ready before they even bother to dig in. Similarly, I find that if I don't print something out...I never look at it. (Sad but true---looking at you, $40 PDF of Arden Vul...)

I'd suggest wrangling you awesome mappery into a digestible form, fully annotated and embedded in the text like you expect it to be for publication. It's actually a lot harder than one would expect to do this---but that's half of the DIY D&D battle: i.e. presenting your concept. Bullets-galore is also a difficult read (for me). Brycian Tech Doc Communication Skills! Right now I feel as if the presentation is a barrier to evaluating the deeper content.

Hold your reader's hand, take them on a gently guided tour of your notion. Point out the places-of-interest and weave a narrative of how it all fits together like some impossibly gregarious tour guide. Remember your audience is lazy and wary of time-sucks-without-reward in an attention-grabbing world. Feed them sugar through a straw while you pick their pocket/brain.

My suggestion: pick one and clean it up a little bit more, then I'll focus on it. Two-page, two-column, embedded images, little intro---print ready. A worthy exercise, I think, even if it's going nowhere. Practice polishing a single gem to perfection. Those are the skills you want to master. Hone your craft and remember McLuhan : The media is the message.

If you PM me, I'll send you my rough draft of the Gud Compound from my campaign book to show you that I practice what I preach.

Alternatively, if you don't want to bother, I'll just soldier on "as is". Your choice.

-----------------------
Thus ends installment #1 of squeen-is-a-know-it-all-a**hole.
You can end this call at any time by pressing "9".

 

[The1True]

Thanks for taking a look!
Formatting text and chopping up bits o map is a huge task and a dangerous distraction while work is still in an alpha stage of development. It was my undoing on Irradiated Paradox and I (publicly) vowed to put off formatting til the end next time around. I get that you're looking for something digestible and I'll see what I can do but I'm afraid we'll lose sight of playability and other mechanical issues in the process of futzing around with presentation. I'd really appreciate it if you could grit your teeth and wade through whatever you can manage in the meantime.

My big concerns at the moment are:

Does the interactive 'puzzle' make sense in Hells Crack? I'm afraid the the antimagic field and the effect of screwing around with valves and levers on the power core 'beholder' are unclear... I was unsure how to simplify it without rendering exploration of the upper refinery pointless.

Is the map of the Dark Briar readable? Does it make sense? It was a real bitch figuring out how to map the wrap-around tree-dungeon.

Does the interactive 'dungeon' of the Witch's Hut in the Mutant Camp make sense? Does the map make sense or is it too much?

If these major issues can be sorted out, I'll be much more confident moving towards issues of language and presentation I think.

 

[Malrex]

Also, remember: I've published nothing. I also have antiquated tastes. These are just my thoughts in a vacuum. Be forewarned: Last time some someone asked for my opinion (Malrex) they got so pissed off they stopped speaking to me. /warning

I asked for an opinion....instead, you attacked and delivered a judgement by armchair psychological assessment, even bringing Star Trek into it, lol?, of how I played which had NOTHING to do with what I asked. So yeah, when you ask a question or for an opinion and instead get judged--it's best to simply not engage. When someone shows you who they are, believe them. But keep bringing it up like you are wearing a medal or something DP..I mean squeen, it only solidifies my unspoken/unasked for assessment of you.

 

[squeen]

Bullshit. My assessment of your playstyle had EVERYTHING to do with what you purposed---ridiculous self-hamstringing of PCs that makes zero sense except in a context of utter boredom with the game. Your thin-skinned response doesn't warrant an apology, nor your continued disproportionate counter-attacks. Throwing a fit when you hear an opinion you don't like been working out well for you? Do folks typically back down from your righteous anger? More likely they just tell you to go pound sand and grow up.

 

[The1True]

God dammit. I miss the days before that stupid State of the BlowSR thread ruined everything.

We all used to talk about adventure writing here. It was awesome!

Dudes I just really need some input on this writing. Can we do that instead of this? I'm begging here.

 

[squeen]

Dudes I just really need some input on this writing. Can we do that instead of this? I'm begging here.

What do you think I was just doing?

 

[Malrex]

God dammit. I miss the days before that stupid State of the BlowSR thread ruined everything.

We all used to talk about adventure writing here. It was awesome!

Dudes I just really need some input on this writing. Can we do that instead of this? I'm begging here.

Hey, I'm sorry The1True.
Just heard my name mentioned for some weird reason on this thread.
Discussing adventure writing did use to be cool here. I haven't had as much time of late to help out. Sorry!

 

[The1True]

What do you think I was just doing?

and it's greatly appreciated!

I haven't had as much time of late to help out. Sorry!

That's cool bro, I just didn't want this thread to get engulfed in flames

 

[Malrex]

That's cool bro, I just didn't want this thread to get engulfed in flames

Actually, while pounding sand, I wrote this awesome, thought-provoking...epic, long-ass post, but then Merchant voices started buzzing in my head--they don't seem to be enthused by my long posts as I am, so figured I better go OSE style and shorten it.... big time.

I apologize The1True...seriously...I do not mean to derail your thread, BUT I'll bring it back around...sorta... and try to bring some

Know what?

TLDR: Ok, the jist--can't we all just get along?

Was thinking about this today...forums in general. There is always blow-ups and members getting pissed or whatever.

1. No bullets, this is the best I can do.
2. All/Most of us--fond memories of D&D when growing up/ also memories of constantly defending WHY you play.....later on HOW you play.
3. Defending your hobby against parents, bullies, satanic panic--whatever! It's ingrained in you to defend what you like/love if you have played old school for a long time. I know for me, it was exhausting. I'm hesitant to even bring up that I play with coworkers/new people I meet because of the past stimas.
4. Therefore--arguing with strangers on a forum is dumb, BUT, makes COMPLETE sense--it's ingrained to defend our playstyle/hobby. People get passionate and get into heated arguments. Period.
5. 5e players were able to avoid this scrutiny. Hooray for them. Seriously, you guys lucked out. No, I don't have a trophy for all of you to hand out.
6. There are blatant assholes--avoid them.
7. Fuck you.
8. There are also people you will blatantly disagree with. However--they share your same passion for the game. Give them a chance.
9. End of the day--just 2 people who are passionate about the hobby--they stand on the same rock. That rock symbolizes an agreement with each other that basically our hobby is cool (and grudgingly admit, there is different ways to play the hobby).
10. I've disagreed with several over the years--but finding myself nodding in agreement or defending them later in arguments with others--IT'S AN UNSPOKEN RESPECT. Translation: "Hey, we disagree about something or most topics in our hobby, but we both still love the hobby, I still value your opinion even thought most of the time I disagree with it (but you have opened my eyes to other things)...pass the beer, we are/would have a good time playing D&D together anyways. I rolled a 3 for initiative."
11. Continued and heightened arguments eventually lead to difference in politics/cancelling each other. D&D is all about creating a fantasy world together. Modern shit just doesn't belong when you are playing around a table (in my humble opinion).
12. Squeen has a strong opinion about his playstyle. Cool. He may make a snowflake NPC named Malrex who picks his nose, and knows 7 books from front to back cover, and knows how to basket weave really well, etc. for revenge. Neat.
13. Meanwhile, I'm hoping my current character dies so I can make my new paladin character named Squeen.....because it amuses me. Perhaps publish that shit. Neat. Who cares.
14. Translation: Squeen is not an asshole (i.e. not a #6.) He is a #8....plus, he can draw really well.
15. DP, in my opinion, was not a #6 either...he was a #8. His shit wasn't directed at me, so others may have different opinions, but I do recognize he TRIED to be apart of the community (dungeon contests--trolls just don't do that, they are too focused on being assholes). He went a bit overboard on bullying and lost his way and I didn't necessarily agree with his playstyle, BUT I personally hope he comes back one day to offer his opinion on things, because a difference in opinion is how people can grow. This may not be popular opinion, but see #7.
16. I shaved off like 7 pages. Perhaps you are expecting a bro hug at the end? Yes..this is my attempt at a bro hug...squeen? you joining in? I wore deodorant and promise I won't roleplay during this epic event.

Let's bring it back to the 1True:
Somewhere (or maybe it was deleted), where I've said above, that is probably lost because I tried to shorten it considerably, is a point that one reason why I think people are hesitant to comment on stuff.....is will it lead to an argument? Will it lead to a difference of opinion and get ugly? Is my playstyle different and will it be judged if I give comment? Do I want to expose myself to that risk?

OR...are they just lazy bastards and don't feel like putting in the effort...sooo much easier to instead just bitch about it?

Tough call on what's up, but shit, the title of this forum is Bryce's Design Forum....

Anyways, what sucks, is The1True is really working hard here to try and get some feedback--which, is completely brave and heroic on his part. It's not easy to ask or receive feedback. It can be damn right scary. So if you have time, get over that hurdle or fear of being judged, and give some fucking feedback (sometimes that is not easy to do either). Squeen gave some, but how about some of you others?

A lot of the comments on Bryce's review bitch about shitty adventures---it's starting to get boring. You hate shitty adventures? Neat---really...thanks for your 2 sentence opinion of bullshit and 5 seconds of effort. IF you really give a shit, then DO something about it! Here is your chance right here, the 1True is asking for it.

If you tire of bullshit adventures (and not saying The1True's adventures fit in this category), then provide some feedback. Otherwise, see #7.

Damn...still a long post..I really tried though.

 

[The1True]

1. Defending your hobby against parents, bullies, satanic panic--whatever! It's ingrained in you to defend what you like/love if you have played old school for a long time. I know for me, it was exhausting. I'm hesitant to even bring up that I play with coworkers/new people I meet because of the past stimas.
2. Therefore--arguing with strangers on a forum is dumb, BUT, makes COMPLETE sense--it's ingrained to defend our playstyle/hobby. People get passionate and get into heated arguments. Period.

So -sniff- beautiful

This really gets to the meat of the matter and should be up in some form in the site rules.

Also, we should open a trauma-counseling thread for some of the shit this dorky hobby forced us to deal with in the late 80's. only half joking... I definitely learned to fist fight thanks to old Gary et al.

I got whooped in that last adventure writing contest (after writing a motherfucking EPIC) and took it (mostly) like a man. If I argue it's (mostly) not because I think you're wrong and I'm so much smarter but because I'm trying to further clarify my understanding of the criticism given. I know it's annoying, but it's unfortunately how I learn. Whip me, beat me, call me bad names... I'm an artist; enduring/accepting criticism is part of my job description.

 

[squeen]

@Malrex: All is well from my perspective. You took offense, but I just refused to play along with the notion that what I wrote was an outrageous attack. Glad you're past it. Let's skip the hug and just fist-bump for now. Respect for sure.

DP's ban was for 4 days. The fact that he stayed away longer was his decision---I can only guess as to why. For my part, I just wanted him to stop pouncing on my every written word, as that was not enjoyable. There was plenty of space on the forum if he'd just exercise some self-control.

@The1True : I will do as you ask (concentrate on the specific content you mentioned above)---but consider this: something is our Achilles's Heel precisely because we are blind to it---not because our mother dipped us into the River Styx while holding us by the heel. If we repeatedly make the same mistakes, it's because we refuse to acknowledge the source of the problem.

Why am I saying that? Because you have some amazing strengths (e.g. your creativity and talent with CAD for maps and figures), but from where I am sitting your organizational/presentation skills are your downfall. Now we tend to be good at what we like (and like what we are good at), but just as with Bryce and writing his book, we tend to avoid (or skimp) on the things we hate doing. If you are brave (like Bryce is doggedly being), you grab the serpent by the throat and wrestle it to the ground. By acknowledging your weakness, and reserving extra time for it, it shouldn't trip you up.

So...I have told you that you need to pay more mind to presentation and organization---in part TO GET OTHERS TO LOOK AT YOUR WORK---and your response was along the lines of "Never mind that stuff. It's unimportant at this stage. Besides, I publicly promised not to spend time on the thing that (I hate) needs a lot of time. Just focus on what I care about---the (fun stuff) content. Gosh, why can't I get any feedback?"

Perhaps I misunderstand your pressing need to "get this out the door" (a common excuse for not addressing issues that take sweat & tears), but exactly what "stage" is this of a postmortem? Again, from where I sit, I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here. Are you after learning DIY publishing, or do you expect an editor/layout guy (like Malrex) to always swoop in and clean things up for you?

If I understand you correctly you want others to devote some of their time to help you, but you're unwilling to invest any more of your time to make it easier for them to do just that.

<scratches head>

That sir, sounds like a blueprint for failure. Harsh, I know, but (believe it or not) I'm trying to be helpful.

As further proof that what I am saying has merit, consider the fact that Bryce's reviews have a single common repeating refrain:

These ideas have potential, but the execution and organization was poor.​

​

Don't be that guy.

...Or to put it a third way, Mom says: "No dessert until you clean up your room."

 

[The1True]

Dude, if you go back and read my thoughts on Irradiated. The mistake wasn't that I hate formatting (although I do). It's that formatting on the fly actually cramps your writing (and not in a good way). You need to assemble all your pieces before you clean them up and make them pretty. I do post-production. I professionally finish things. This is something I know.
I really REALLY appreciate you looking at this for me and I will try to make time to rough out a double column rough draft with map fragments for you, but that is a time consuming task for someone who's never taken a word processing class in his life and it's not going to happen soon. I'm not being lazy. You can't look at this volume of work and say that. I've hit a wall and I'm looking for creative input. It's ridiculous to spend hours polishing a turd if large portions of it are going to need to be ripped out/rewritten.
I did say whip me beat me etc. Not sure I'm a big fan of being patronized though, but okay, bring it on I guess... I really do appreciate the help.

 

[squeen]

Not sure I'm a big fan of being patronized though, but okay, bring it on I guess... I really do appreciate the help.

It's not me, it's new my extra-snooty looking avatar (actually an unaltered photo from roadside curio shop I saw on our most recent vacation). Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm all out of bandages.

You need to assemble all your pieces before you clean them up and make them pretty. I do post-production. I professionally finish things. This is something I know.

Hard disagree. "God is in the details." I believe that in the process of patient creation, a object iteratively approaches its final, best form and must be rearranged and reworked many times during assembly. The pieces cannot be judged out of context. Even small gems must sometimes be left out of the final piece (tits on a hog?). In a sense, we all "professionally finish" things every single day. The questions is solely: do we make beautiful things of functional quality or ugly half-arsed/glitzed-up attempts. (Not saying that your work is not good, just that we all struggle with drawing the line at 'good enough'.)

Your hatred of formatting and word processing comes through loud and clear and obscures your other considerable talents. You have an opportunity to address that weakness by "polishing a turd" but are instead are choosing to be miserly with your time for personal reasons.

Remember, you are not making a map or a drawing or a "cool idea", you are making an adventure to publish (and/or just honing the necessary skills!)---think holistically. You probably crave positive recognition and a sense of pride in what you've accomplished, but getting there will never happen unless all the boxes are checked. People just can't see past the warts. Quality emerges from the harmony of the small details---not from the details themselves. (Crap, that does sound patronizing!)

OK. Here it is again---not from my virtual mouth, but from an authority figure: In the Proko art schoool, one of the instructors repeated a commonly held adage: "A painting is only as good as its worst element". Truth.

Never mind the clean up, I'll fight my way through it it 'as-is', but I have no idea what your "next step" is going to be.

Ugh! I give up. When will I learn you have to give people exactly what they ask for and only what they ask for to make them happy. Silence is golden.

 

[EOTB]

Knowing when to fight is as important as having the ability to. And online that is when someone is overextending themselves (key point) to pick on that which you hold dear, to manipulate word of mouth in an unflattering way. Otherwise fighting results in no positive outcome.

But never to advance your own preferences. Unless you are group-norming among a select group of people whom already share your preferences. (Guy in Philadelphia at a Eagles-friendly bar: "Cowboys suck!" - good. Guy in Omaha at a wine tasting room: "Cowboys suck!" - may still be true, but poor socialization. Guy in Dallas at any bar: "Cowboys suck!" - this person has platonically overextended themselves.)

I personally struggle with reviews because, while I recognize the act has public value, the negativity is personally corrosive - especially over time. A "warn the public" review is much easier to do if I think the author has overextended themselves - perhaps floating along on past glory to shovel out crap for cash, like a band touring on the strength of old hits while their last several albums are sonic dreck. (Although this is not the only possible type of overextension.) So I will publicly review only those things I wish to advance, although I will offer private feedback, when requested, of a more constructive sort if and when I'm not hip deep in something of my own making.