Palace of Unquiet Repose

[PrinceofNothing]

Finally got my copy and read it all. A flavourful entertaining read. The difficulty of the encounters gives me a feeling of a frustrated DM who's players never make it to a high enough level to play Tomb of Horrors. There's an inordinate amount of 'fuck you' in this adventure is what I'm saying.

No frustration, I always smile winningly whenever one of my PCs dies.

I'm less down with the, not one, not two, but THREE godlike monsters in this lvls 3-5 (ha!) adventure. It's a lot. I get it, we're not holding hands here. Players are expected to be experienced and act with reason/caution. Still. That's three encounters that present as combats but are actually problems that need to be solved. One of this kind of Trick is usually sufficient.

No but that's KOOOL and part of oldschool sensibilities. Not every encounter can be won. You can even pit them against eachother!

With regards to that. I LOVE poor, sad Diorag and I think smart PC's should be able to resolve him without begging for hints/openly weeping. I love the chain-radius thing, but did you guys actually measure the dungeon? Because at it's current scale I estimate 400', not as the crow flies, but following the corridors to the edge of his radius and he apparently has 1000' of chain. Don't want to nitpick but, maybe I'm missing something? Even if those squares are 20' (which they might be since despite the scale on the map saying 10' the initial description describes the hallways as 20' wide); even if, that would mean it's 800' to the edge of that radius. Still plenty of chain to hunt the characters right out the front door of the palace

We actually deliberated giving his chain a fixed length and then putting different shaped brackets in corridors to show how exactly he could reach what area but in the end it would have made the map more confusing and it would not have added that much. As long as his reach is well known I think the encounter works.

The Azarog on the other hand is a complete motherfucker and easily the nastiest thing in this adventure, reminiscent of that awful thing in Return to the Tomb of Horrors. The only solution to it is WAY back in the Sphinx Cave which there is a good chance the PC's will never discover. Even if they do, there's little to indicate what they must do to rid themselves of that thing. I guess some groups might be cool with that kind of unresolvable issue but picturing myself as a player, I'd feel pretty frustrated getting hounded by the Azarog through the city while I poke at it with everything I've got and get nowhere. This one could have used an application of the 3 Clues rule. An ancient library or somesuch. Maybe the Master of Ceremonies could be good for some answers if properly propitiated? Once again, I didn't take notes while I was reading, so maybe there were some hints and I've just forgotten them?

The Vestige. Oof. Now that was a nasty piece of work. Return to the Tomb of Horrors varied in quality from brilliant to kind of lame (near the end), but that part in Moil was amazing. I don't know anyone that would survive the game at that level, but that segment was a thing of evil beauty.

There's a few odd hints about he Azarog on the murals, but also don't forget the adventure has a knife that can be used to get a contact outer plane spell, the Vae Victis can be questioned, You can indeed try to question the Master of Ceremonies and there is of course the Many Angled Instrument of Ethereal Imprisonment. He also can't enter the Palace (maybe if the wards are down, this is up to the GM), or leave the Black Shore.

Good job guys, and thanks for a fantastic effort! I look forward to your next project!

Thank you for taking the time to review it and giving us some feedback! I have a sequel in mind, and ideally its going to be a trilogy.

 

[Beoric]

With regards to that. I LOVE poor, sad Diorag and I think smart PC's should be able to resolve him without begging for hints/openly weeping. I love the chain-radius thing, but did you guys actually measure the dungeon? Because at it's current scale I estimate 400', not as the crow flies, but following the corridors to the edge of his radius and he apparently has 1000' of chain. Don't want to nitpick but, maybe I'm missing something? Even if those squares are 20' (which they might be since despite the scale on the map saying 10' the initial description describes the hallways as 20' wide); even if, that would mean it's 800' to the edge of that radius. Still plenty of chain to hunt the characters right out the front door of the palace.

Weird, this thing went straight to post as soon as I hit "reply", and now I have to go in and edit it.

You could tie it up by running it around the block a bunch of times in circles, but I suspect once you got to the edge the players would assume it was a magic chain that extended in length indefinitely; I can't remember if there is any way for the players to know that it is limited to 1000', but I don't think so. Even odds at that point if they would try to flee the dungeon or assume they had no option but to fight.

 

[Malrex]

Finally got my copy and read it all. A flavourful entertaining read. The difficulty of the encounters gives me a feeling of a frustrated DM who's players never make it to a high enough level to play Tomb of Horrors. There's an inordinate amount of 'fuck you' in this adventure is what I'm saying.

I am very much looking forward to running this at the tabletop rather than over a VTT. That sense of crushing doom needs to be maintained in person I suspect.

The NPC's are interesting and invite rrrrole play. Careful notes and/or cue cards would have to be made to make sure they achieve their full utility. Depending on who the party bumps into first could swing the story in wildly different directions and that's intriguing.
I'm down with the numerous save-or-die (and in one case, no-save-just-die) traps. That's par for a grimdark meatgrinder. I feel like the players are well-warned by events leading up to this adventure and their should be no tears shed/molars gnashed.

I'm less down with the, not one, not two, but THREE godlike monsters in this lvls 3-5 (ha!) adventure. It's a lot. I get it, we're not holding hands here. Players are expected to be experienced and act with reason/caution. Still. That's three encounters that present as combats but are actually problems that need to be solved. One of this kind of Trick is usually sufficient.

With regards to that. I LOVE poor, sad Diorag and I think smart PC's should be able to resolve him without begging for hints/openly weeping. I love the chain-radius thing, but did you guys actually measure the dungeon? Because at it's current scale I estimate 400', not as the crow flies, but following the corridors to the edge of his radius and he apparently has 1000' of chain. Don't want to nitpick but, maybe I'm missing something? Even if those squares are 20' (which they might be since despite the scale on the map saying 10' the initial description describes the hallways as 20' wide); even if, that would mean it's 800' to the edge of that radius. Still plenty of chain to hunt the characters right out the front door of the palace.

Similarly, Uyu -Yadmogh should be resolvable as well. If people have reached his throneroom without picking up at least one weapon that can harm him then they deserve what they get.

The Azarog on the other hand is a complete motherfucker and easily the nastiest thing in this adventure, reminiscent of that awful thing in Return to the Tomb of Horrors. The only solution to it is WAY back in the Sphinx Cave which there is a good chance the PC's will never discover. Even if they do, there's little to indicate what they must do to rid themselves of that thing. I guess some groups might be cool with that kind of unresolvable issue but picturing myself as a player, I'd feel pretty frustrated getting hounded by the Azarog through the city while I poke at it with everything I've got and get nowhere. This one could have used an application of the 3 Clues rule. An ancient library or somesuch. Maybe the Master of Ceremonies could be good for some answers if properly propitiated? Once again, I didn't take notes while I was reading, so maybe there were some hints and I've just forgotten them?

The art is great AND compliments the words in setting the mood. The maps are interesting, well designed and clean. Some issues in the printed version hunting for a scale in the Necropolis. Also, an unfortunate issue of dpi resolution blowing up those pixely circles for The Forum might have been worth a quick redo in Photoshop.

All in all, a great read, which is of primary importance to the consumer who may never get a chance to run the thing. Professionally formatted, well illustrated and entertainingly worded. It's easy to picture this in play without serious thoughts of modification or copious note-taking. Definitely some elements will frustrate and infuriate players, but not so much so that it's impossible to complete and I would imagine it will feel quite rewarding to do so as a result.

Good job guys, and thanks for a fantastic effort! I look forward to y I our next project!

I love it...good feedback that touches on some weaknesses.
I think there needs to be a balance of 'fuck you' and a sense of 'doom'...sometimes that can be challenging to capture. I admit, there is a tinge of 'fuck you'...but as a DM I would warn my players that this adventure has no BS...and ask if they up for the challenge. I believe the tone is an attractant to some players.

Roleplay with the NPC's...its what its all about for me.

3 god-like monsters. I see them as more like tricks. I know my player base would probably attack brute force on all 3 of these creatures and die--that's how we roll. But more sensible players (yes, I just insulted the players I play with..hah!) have tools, weapons, or hints on how to make a work-around with these 3 god-like creatures. This adventure is not for beginning players.

Diorag--man....I loved Prince's idea on this (still do)--I think its genius...but it was extremely hard to portray the 'rules' to the reader. I caught myself writing a book on all the rules of this with a crazy map mash-up...and I decided...NO. I needed to trust the GM. This is a total trust the GM rule. We set some limits (1,000' ft. chain), some pillars and twisting passages...had to trust the GM on this. If players are playing it smart and tangling it up with columns, or running from one side of the dungeon to the other...the GM needs to use some judgement. Diorag is supposed to be used as a suspense tool...to hurry a party along, mess up resting, etc.
And you are right about the passage width. I was going to make it 20' wide (which I did for some passages), but the width of the black box (palace) didnt match the size on the island map...so had to make some areas 10' wide.

The map dpi...had some last minute help...but I'm working on improving the map aspects. So much crap to learn to make a decent publication....this publication broke my confidence on making a good map with CC3. I also had some great layout advice...again, so much to learn. So appreciative of the advice of some members of this forum that helped in the last minute.

Glad you liked the art...Eray...the guy who did most of it, worked at a great speed--mine. Others were slower and I had to really time things to make sure it could meet the deadline.

I think you touch on something...a 'fuck you' or grimdark...or 'player frustration' with this adventure. My group wants me to run it for them (and I plan too eventually), but there is definitely a different vibe to this adventure and I feel the need to pre-warn my players---their 'A' game is required.

As always, I really appreciate the feedback so that I can improve.

 

[EOTB]

I caught myself writing a book on all the rules of this with a crazy map mash-up...and I decided...NO. I needed to trust the GM. This is a total trust the GM rule.

I mean, I get it - there's a page count to worry about, and good GMs may feel like their very possibly cool approach to the starting big picture is then deconstructed by more author detail - but I don't know how any any trusty GMers can read your average TSR-D&D forum thread and just trust that the majority of GMs will understand . I think spending too much time on forums is why when I write something, I start DM'splaining.

 

[The1True]

this publication broke my confidence on making a good map with CC3.

Really? I thought this was the gold standard! I keep visiting their website and trying to rationalize the purchase to myself. What's wrong with it?
For Irradiated Paradox I was working at a huge resolution in Photoshop so I could scale to whatever size. Some of those files got pretty unwieldy by the end. More recently I've been working at 300 dpi with every square on the grid at 1/4" (75 pixels) but, like you found out, I'm screwed if I decide to blow an area up. I need to correct this practice before I shoot myself in the foot.
I'll totally start next map.
Next map...

 

[The1True]

I mean, I get it - there's a page count to worry about, and good GMs may feel like their very possibly cool approach to the starting big picture is then deconstructed by more author detail - but I don't know how any any trusty GMers can read your average TSR-D&D forum thread and just trust that the majority of GMs will understand . I think spending too much time on forums is why when I write something, I start DM'splaining.

Yeah, before he disappeared @Grützi bequeathed us with this glorious Encounter System that may need some distilling down for page-count purposes and I keep having to oversimplify mini-games that have turned into bloated skill challenges. I hear what you're saying. Especially for sub-systems and mini-games, you want to clearly communicate the rules that are going to make the idea function so the reader doesn't have to dig through books or make their own rulings that may negatively alter the intent of the challenge, but if the page count exceeds the amount of use/joy the DM/PC's are going to get from it, you're probably out of control. It's a bitch figuring out where to economize.

 

[Beoric]

Diorag--man....I loved Prince's idea on this (still do)--I think its genius...but it was extremely hard to portray the 'rules' to the reader. I caught myself writing a book on all the rules of this with a crazy map mash-up...and I decided...NO. I needed to trust the GM. This is a total trust the GM rule. We set some limits (1,000' ft. chain), some pillars and twisting passages...had to trust the GM on this. If players are playing it smart and tangling it up with columns, or running from one side of the dungeon to the other...the GM needs to use some judgement. Diorag is supposed to be used as a suspense tool...to hurry a party along, mess up resting, etc.

I think trusting the DM, with a sidebar telling the DM you are trusting them, along with some hints as to how to exercise their judgment, is exactly what you need. DMs who want to run this playstyle need to learn sometime, and this isn't exactly a beginner-OSR dungeon. And the 3e/4e/PF set isn't exactly your audience, anyway. If you want to hand-hold or introduce players to the style, write a teaching dungeon for 5e, with elements that naturally teach DM and players the expectations and how to run it.

Plus, any mechanic short of counting squares is likely to produce absurd results more often than you would like (and may well be more onerous to implement than counting squares). I personally tend to find mechanics like that discourage me from using the module.

However I think your stated chain length is too long. I counted squares between the throne and the dotted line, following the pathways, and it generally works out to around 300' by the shortest path.

 

[Beoric]

Really? I thought this was the gold standard! I keep visiting their website and trying to rationalize the purchase to myself. What's wrong with it?
For Irradiated Paradox I was working at a huge resolution in Photoshop so I could scale to whatever size. Some of those files got pretty unwieldy by the end. More recently I've been working at 300 dpi with every square on the grid at 1/4" (75 pixels) but, like you found out, I'm screwed if I decide to blow an area up. I need to correct this practice before I shoot myself in the foot.
I'll totally start next map.
Next map...

CC3 gives you a lot of power to make really pretty, detailed battle maps, but it is cumbersome and basically not worth it for the spare overview maps that are in your average OSR module, including this one.

It might have been worth the effort for what you were doing with Irradiated Paradox, though. I haven't used it in a while, but I seem to recall that it scales automatically.

 

[The1True]

but I seem to recall that it scales automatically.

good ol' vector graphics. I've started building more things in 3D which theoretically allows me to render to whatever size I need, but then I end up processing the file so much in Photoshop that the thought of rendering it out and going back through the whole compositing process again at a new resolution is not pleasant.

 

[Malrex]

Really? I thought this was the gold standard! I keep visiting their website and trying to rationalize the purchase to myself. What's wrong with it?
For Irradiated Paradox I was working at a huge resolution in Photoshop so I could scale to whatever size. Some of those files got pretty unwieldy by the end. More recently I've been working at 300 dpi with every square on the grid at 1/4" (75 pixels) but, like you found out, I'm screwed if I decide to blow an area up. I need to correct this practice before I shoot myself in the foot.
I'll totally start next map.
Next map...

It's a decent program. I probably only use the tip of the iceberg. The part that frustrates me is having to do a map with CC3, then take it into another program like photoshop to make it look pretty. And that's the part that broke me because I don't know how to use photoshop and had some last minute help. It's just one more thing to learn. It might be possible to make it all look great in CC3--but just need time to learn--and I'd rather be writing/creating then messing around with programs.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

You could tie it up by running it around the block a bunch of times in circles, but I suspect once you got to the edge the players would assume it was a magic chain that extended in length indefinitely; I can't remember if there is any way for the players to know that it is limited to 1000', but I don't think so. Even odds at that point if they would try to flee the dungeon or assume they had no option but to fight.

How so? The chain is not included on the creature for nothing, and since I specified the length in the text I assume the description would be that it is of finite length. Even if so, several rounds with the breaker would dissuade them of this notion. I consider it a feature that there is no 'fixed' solution, though a careful read will reveal several possibilities.

 

[EOTB]

It's a decent program. I probably only use the tip of the iceberg. The part that frustrates me is having to do a map with CC3, then take it into another program like photoshop to make it look pretty. And that's the part that broke me because I don't know how to use photoshop and had some last minute help. It's just one more thing to learn. It might be possible to make it all look great in CC3--but just need time to learn--and I'd rather be writing/creating then messing around with programs.

CC3 can actually make it look pretty good on its own, after practicing with all the various effects. I'm not really there yet myself. People who are casual masters of CC3 know how to use the effects in the same way a painter knows how to use paints; my understanding of effects is that of settings. Totally different.

And even then, the Anna Meyers of of the world take that maxed-out CC3 map and do even more crazy shit to it in photoshop. I'm not going to try to spend the time necessary to learn something to that level - she doesn't write adventures, as you said, and compromises must be made.

 

[Malrex]

CC3 can actually make it look pretty good on its own, after practicing with all the various effects. I'm not really there yet myself. People who are casual masters of CC3 know how to use the effects in the same way a painter knows how to use paints; my understanding of effects is that of settings. Totally different.

And even then, the Anna Meyers of of the world take that maxed-out CC3 map and do even more crazy shit to it in photoshop. I'm not going to try to spend the time necessary to learn something to that level - she doesn't write adventures, as you said, and compromises must be made.

I think I never really tested things out because I figured it was just black and white, but going to mess around with the glow/blur/and all other effects.

 

[EOTB]

I tend to stick with the effects in a given annual, so I'm no expert either. I'll save a copy and F around with them - 1 time out of 3 I'll stumble on to something I think looks cool, don't really know how or why whatever buttons I pushed produced that look. The other two times I just go back to the pre-loaded factory settings.

 

[Beoric]

How so? The chain is not included on the creature for nothing, and since I specified the length in the text I assume the description would be that it is of finite length. Even if so, several rounds with the breaker would dissuade them of this notion. I consider it a feature that there is no 'fixed' solution, though a careful read will reveal several possibilities.

They are players, they panic. I wasn't suggesting that as a reason to change the product.

Although I do think you need to look at the dotted circle, and chain length.

 

[squeen]

I'm a very literal engineer. The disconnect between drawn radius and chain length caused me cognitive distress.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Although I do think you need to look at the dotted circle, and chain length.

I'm a very literal engineer. The disconnect between drawn radius and chain length caused me cognitive distress.

OKAY OKAY PRINCE WILL MAKE AN EXACT CHAIN LENGTH SIMULATOR SIDE-BAR IN PALACE REVISED EDITION IF IT IS EVER MADE OKAY?!? I will have to use (w) |-> and <-| (e) signifiers to indicate from what direction Diorag can reach where and would m'lady perhaps like a table of the friction of different types of floor on the adamantium chain so the percentage can be deducted from Diorag's movement speed?

As an aside, I ran Red Prophet Rises saturday and it ended with a few players, presumably high on Crimson Tear, standing on top of the cliff and trying to giant-strength enhanced dunk boulders on Khazra's head and missing and plummeting to their deaths. Climbing the Canyon is a damn solid strategy.

 

[squeen]

and would m'lady perhaps like a table of the friction of different types of floor on the adamantium chain so the percentage can be deducted from Diorag's movement speed?

(bats eyelashes) Oh yes! That would be divine.

 

[Malrex]

As an aside, I ran Red Prophet Rises saturday and it ended with a few players, presumably high on Crimson Tear, standing on top of the cliff and trying to giant-strength enhanced dunk boulders on Khazra's head and missing and plummeting to their deaths. Climbing the Canyon is a damn solid strategy.

Hah! that's awesome!

 

[Beoric]

OKAY OKAY PRINCE WILL MAKE AN EXACT CHAIN LENGTH SIMULATOR SIDE-BAR IN PALACE REVISED EDITION IF IT IS EVER MADE OKAY?!? I will have to use (w) |-> and <-| (e) signifiers to indicate from what direction Diorag can reach where and would m'lady perhaps like a table of the friction of different types of floor on the adamantium chain so the percentage can be deducted from Diorag's movement speed?

You could do that, OR you could shorten the chain to about 300' to match the dotted circle. Or get rid of the dotted circle because it doesn't make sense if the chain length is 1,000'. Or ignore me because it's your baby and you don't have to do anything you don't want to do.