Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Not just "The Best", but "Easily on The Best." Nicely done!
Palace of Unquiet Repose
- Thread starter squeen
- Start date
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
A while ago I was listening to a panel on Q (the CBC radio program, not the conspiracy theory platform) talking about the advantages of vinyl albums. And one of the things they discussed was the way vinyl albums push you towards listening to the whole album in order, which provided a different experience from hearing the tracks in a different order, or in isolation from each other when mixed amongst other music. The artists, being aware of this, would agonize over the order in which tracks were placed in the album in order to create a particular experience. During the discussion, one of the guests referred to listening to the tracks in order as revealing "the story of the album".
Since then, I have come to apply that reasoning to the modules I like. I dislike modules with an enforced plot, but I also dislike modules where the rooms or encounters seem disconnected from each other. I feel like the module should gradually reveal itself to players, so that they gradually form of understanding of the social, logical, magical or spiritual rules by which the module operates, and get a sense of its history and place in the world, without necessarily being able to articulate it. I have been referring to this is my head for some time as the "story of the module".
I mention this because the PoUR is a good example of a module that has a strong "story of the module". And that is not true of a lot of Bryce's recommendations, there are a number of recommendations that I don't like because they are lacking in this department. They may have interesting but unconnected encounters, they may even be united by a theme of some sort, but they don't reward the players with a gradual sense of understanding the environment on an emotional level.
I also want to thank Prince for including a Summary that is actually useful, in that it tells the DM what he needs to know to run the module, instead of giving a plot summary that illuminates nothing. I am particularly annoyed with plot summaries that omit the "climax" as some sort of teaser for the DM that will be rewarded after he plows through the entire module. Deliberately omitting the pieces of the module that are critical to an understanding of the module is the most wrong-headed thing a writer can do from the perspective of assisting the DM during prep, let alone at the table.
Take this line from the "DM's Background" section for Evil Tide (which read recently because I saw it on Prince's blog). "If the PCs are successful in this, they may learn more of the reason behind the sahuagin's interest in the sea caves, and what can be done to put an end to their foul designs." And then you have to read the damn module to figure out the sahuagin's interest in the sea caves. Which is damnably useless to the DM, who by rights ought to already understand the motivations of the major opponents before he reads the module entries, so he can link them together in his head, and be prepared to ad lib monster responses and an order of battle when the players inevitably do something the module doesn't expect.
Since then, I have come to apply that reasoning to the modules I like. I dislike modules with an enforced plot, but I also dislike modules where the rooms or encounters seem disconnected from each other. I feel like the module should gradually reveal itself to players, so that they gradually form of understanding of the social, logical, magical or spiritual rules by which the module operates, and get a sense of its history and place in the world, without necessarily being able to articulate it. I have been referring to this is my head for some time as the "story of the module".
I mention this because the PoUR is a good example of a module that has a strong "story of the module". And that is not true of a lot of Bryce's recommendations, there are a number of recommendations that I don't like because they are lacking in this department. They may have interesting but unconnected encounters, they may even be united by a theme of some sort, but they don't reward the players with a gradual sense of understanding the environment on an emotional level.
I also want to thank Prince for including a Summary that is actually useful, in that it tells the DM what he needs to know to run the module, instead of giving a plot summary that illuminates nothing. I am particularly annoyed with plot summaries that omit the "climax" as some sort of teaser for the DM that will be rewarded after he plows through the entire module. Deliberately omitting the pieces of the module that are critical to an understanding of the module is the most wrong-headed thing a writer can do from the perspective of assisting the DM during prep, let alone at the table.
Take this line from the "DM's Background" section for Evil Tide (which read recently because I saw it on Prince's blog). "If the PCs are successful in this, they may learn more of the reason behind the sahuagin's interest in the sea caves, and what can be done to put an end to their foul designs." And then you have to read the damn module to figure out the sahuagin's interest in the sea caves. Which is damnably useless to the DM, who by rights ought to already understand the motivations of the major opponents before he reads the module entries, so he can link them together in his head, and be prepared to ad lib monster responses and an order of battle when the players inevitably do something the module doesn't expect.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Thanks for your comment. I won't speak for Prince but wanted to touch on the bolded part in my own opinion as I worked on the adventure.
The bolded part is fucking weird. The summary. The thing that actually should help the DM out. The most important piece to help the DM...but a lot of the time is omitted. It makes total sense to do it.....But it's a WALL to overcome!! Like a tidal wave! Why is it so hard to do for designers? Or to speak for myself, me?
I don't know why this wall pops up, but it does and although I don't want to speak for other designers, there is something to this observation. It's like we don't want to give everything away....? We want to make sure the people read the whole thing? I believe this also ties into the amount of preview a designer shares on DrivethruRPG. There is a weird hesitation of not wanting to share too much....like we don't trust society to read most of the adventure and still purchase it if they like it? Or the big hook/reveal must draw them in, but is only explained near the end so they purchase the adventure? That it all makes sense at the end? Where does this huge hesitation to share everything up front come from?
I think it's like the movies...what would you do if you went to the movies and the first 5 minutes was a summary of the whole movie--would ruin the experience right? I think that's what comes up for most designers--not wanting to 'spoil the surprise'. But...you got to spoil the surprise to support the DM right?--because reading/watching something is different than trying to run an adventure. A DM or purchaser can get annoyed quickly trying to figure everything out...make it easy for them--it's not a movie, a revelation of the "surprise" early is welcomed....at least for adventures to be useable at the table DURING play.
I've forced myself to have the layout of Introduction, Summary, then GM's notes as the top 3 things when starting an adventure. It helps remind me that not everyone knows what this adventure is about (or what's going on in my head) and I need to write a summary to get someone on the same page--and this summary needs to be kick ass because it may be the only thing that draws the interest of someone in the first few minutes...and it needs to be 100% helpful, otherwise it's just fluff and useless.
Another thing that I find is omitted or hard to do for a designer is a proper conclusion. I hate purchasing adventures, wanting just a little bit more afterwards. When done right, my imagination can soar, but when it doesn't deliver, my vision can just fall flat and I realize we just finished a adventure and that's that...like a deflated balloon. I hate movies that do this as well...what happened to so and so?..or what are the potential things that could happen?
I suggested to Prince to write a conclusion, which he did and I think did a great job...but just like a summary, a conclusion is important to keep things rolling past the adventure---throwing out some ideas of what might happen afterwards can help a DM plug it into their own campaign. When I don't see a proper conclusion in an adventure, I find myself scratching my head and re-reading the last few rooms to try and figure out the point of it all...
So I appreciate your example of vinyl albums and can relate...there needs to be a balance...and it can be a challenge to achieve that balance. To provide support for the DM upfront so they can understand the 'story of the album' vibe quickly to support them, but also still provide that slow burn revealing mystery that players can discover to make everything interesting and to encourage the creative vibe of the DM to take the adventure further.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Possibly another concern might be that a lot of players buy adventures for their DM's (I know I do) and we feel pretty safe reading the front matter to see if this is something we and/or our DM might be interested in. I'd rather not trip over a major spoiler while I skim the first page.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Does this happen a lot? And do you need a DM? lol...
From my experience with old codgers playing 2e, 1e, etc...that is never the case and most have their own homebrews going anyways.
But yeah...this could definitely be a concern. A summary could potentially pull in a player to share it with their DM..but it might totally ruin the experience...where is the balance?
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Probably the old "don't read past this point" message would suffice. So your first paragraph is your elevator pitch and then a spoiler warning and the rest of your summary.
Man, DTRPG UK notified me my copy had been printed two weeks ago. I'm dying to see this thing!
Man, DTRPG UK notified me my copy had been printed two weeks ago. I'm dying to see this thing!
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
In a self-contained adventure this makes sense, but in a sandbox it can easily be taken too far. Hearing details about the royal line and the pantheon of gods etc. up front is off-putting. Worse still, details for the DM without context will fall flat and be quickly forgotten.
Also, however charming the adventure might be, blabbing it out in a summary (without context) can make it seem trite. I imagine writing a good summary is akin to the backcover of a paperback...and takes great talent.
For me the one thing that gives me proper context on what's-what as DM is a good top-level map --- up front! Even before the intro. Seeing that, I immediately understand what pieces are involved. I have much more patience for an intro when it's been visually grounded and I can locate the items being discussed on the map. Otherwise, unless it's very cleverly written, I give the intro about 3-5 sentences before I'm skimming past it to find some meat I can hang my hat on. (NOTE: For whatever reason, I move through a new book linearly. So map-in-the-back will be the last thing I see. That's alright for quick-reference much, much later---although I still prefer inset maps placed close to the keys because of convenience and it also segregates the sections visually---but utterly useless for initial context.)
Also, however charming the adventure might be, blabbing it out in a summary (without context) can make it seem trite. I imagine writing a good summary is akin to the backcover of a paperback...and takes great talent.
For me the one thing that gives me proper context on what's-what as DM is a good top-level map --- up front! Even before the intro. Seeing that, I immediately understand what pieces are involved. I have much more patience for an intro when it's been visually grounded and I can locate the items being discussed on the map. Otherwise, unless it's very cleverly written, I give the intro about 3-5 sentences before I'm skimming past it to find some meat I can hang my hat on. (NOTE: For whatever reason, I move through a new book linearly. So map-in-the-back will be the last thing I see. That's alright for quick-reference much, much later---although I still prefer inset maps placed close to the keys because of convenience and it also segregates the sections visually---but utterly useless for initial context.)
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Agreed! You also don't want your summary to be too prescriptive. I'm sure that can be worked around if your summary is more a summary of what's in the book and where rather than a giant backstory/dramatis personae/timeline.
You say this a lot. I agree. Best of all is this inside-cover map/DM screen. Bestest of all is the double-cover for maximum map enjoyment.
Dude! No!
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Err...uumm...shit.Dude! No!
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
True, but the trick is not to take it too far, and the sort of things I am thinking of shouldn't box the DM in at all. For example, it is good to know the motivations of the major NPCs/factions in order to provide context to the keyed entries, and PoUR called out in the summary that the Appendix respecting factions should be read before reading the adventure.
That is absolutely correct, and I know that for certain because I didn't do that; it being easier when reading a tablet in bet to read from front to back, I read the appendixes after I read the adventure, and there were bits that didn't make much sense until I got to the appendixes (my fault really, although for this reason I prefer such information up front, KotB style, no matter what Bryce says about appendixes).
What I think a DM needs going in is a rough understanding of the elements that will have a significant impact on the adventure. Major NPC/faction motivations and activity; unique magic items that can have a significant impact on play; new monsters with unusual mechanics that have an impact on play; checks on progression to look out for, such as the fact that keys or other items will be required to advance.
That's not the sort of summary I'm talking about. I don't mean a plot summary, I mean a summary of critical elements that the DM needs to be watching for.
Completely agree. If I'm not reading on a tablet, I always turn to the maps first. I can tell a lot about an adventure what what maps are present, and what maps are absent. When I print a PDF, I always print the maps on the inside covers for easy reference, regardless of where the writer put them in the module.
That's the sort of thing that used to be on the back cover of a shrink-wrapped module, and now should be in the product description on the webpage. Of course, you could call out the section by titling is something like "DM Summary of Key Elements", or just "DM Summary".
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Oh yeah! I am going to start doing that too.
Thank you. Perhaps it is that I grew up in the tail-end of the 2e era and thus I have always considered the setting that the game world takes place in as something that must entice in and of itself. An adventure where you become enmeshed in a gradually unfolding mystery is fascinating, as long as this does not come at the cost of playability or interaction. Therefore a lot of background via inference, there for the taking if desired. I always enjoyed the idea of CoC games where figuring out what the fuck is going on is a neccessary step in ensuring one's survival.
I think a lot of adventures are written so its exciting and you get the big mystery reveal at the end like Scoobeedoo but adventure writing, for all the poetic flares we like to inflict upon the reader, is essentially technical writing so information must be clearly presented.
Do let us know when you do get it. It took a while to cook up.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
This one by Stephen Daniele reminds me of the Sphinx entrance a bit.
Evard's Small Tentacle
*eyeroll*
Perfectly put. Background via interaction and inference is a lost art primarily because latter day adventures try to do this through the "background" or "history" section, and think that that eliminates the more important need for mystery and unfolding through Interaction and inference. I don't think this is an element that Bryce explicitly considers in his rating methodology and likely the biggest deviance in what adventures i like better vs. Bryce.
My definition of good is "doesnt make me want to stab my eyes out." The number of REALLY good adventures 've reviewed is very small, so much so that I tend to not mention more advanced topics like am integrated backstory. I would note, however, that this is one of the reasons that I think G1 is so strong. It's LOADED with this.
Any chance of you adopting a SuperBest category? Your The Best list is almost fifty entries long if not more. The ability to make adventures that present like they are a credible fantastical environment while retaining their power to function as an adventure are comparatively slim. G3 (except the bottom level) does a great job at this.
Bryce answered this question in a post a number of years ago!
Good to know. Ten points for Griffindor if you get me the link to the post next time.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Finally got my copy and read it all. A flavourful entertaining read. The difficulty of the encounters gives me a feeling of a frustrated DM who's players never make it to a high enough level to play Tomb of Horrors. There's an inordinate amount of 'fuck you' in this adventure is what I'm saying.
I am very much looking forward to running this at the tabletop rather than over a VTT. That sense of crushing doom needs to be maintained in person I suspect.
The NPC's are interesting and invite rrrrole play. Careful notes and/or cue cards would have to be made to make sure they achieve their full utility. Depending on who the party bumps into first could swing the story in wildly different directions and that's intriguing.
I'm down with the numerous save-or-die (and in one case, no-save-just-die) traps. That's par for a grimdark meatgrinder. I feel like the players are well-warned by events leading up to this adventure and their should be no tears shed/molars gnashed.
I'm less down with the, not one, not two, but THREE godlike monsters in this lvls 3-5 (ha!) adventure. It's a lot. I get it, we're not holding hands here. Players are expected to be experienced and act with reason/caution. Still. That's three encounters that present as combats but are actually problems that need to be solved. One of this kind of Trick is usually sufficient.
With regards to that. I LOVE poor, sad Diorag and I think smart PC's should be able to resolve him without begging for hints/openly weeping. I love the chain-radius thing, but did you guys actually measure the dungeon? Because at it's current scale I estimate 400', not as the crow flies, but following the corridors to the edge of his radius and he apparently has 1000' of chain. Don't want to nitpick but, maybe I'm missing something? Even if those squares are 20' (which they might be since despite the scale on the map saying 10' the initial description describes the hallways as 20' wide); even if, that would mean it's 800' to the edge of that radius. Still plenty of chain to hunt the characters right out the front door of the palace.
Similarly, Uyu -Yadmogh should be resolvable as well. If people have reached his throneroom without picking up at least one weapon that can harm him then they deserve what they get.
The Azarog on the other hand is a complete motherfucker and easily the nastiest thing in this adventure, reminiscent of that awful thing in Return to the Tomb of Horrors. The only solution to it is WAY back in the Sphinx Cave which there is a good chance the PC's will never discover. Even if they do, there's little to indicate what they must do to rid themselves of that thing. I guess some groups might be cool with that kind of unresolvable issue but picturing myself as a player, I'd feel pretty frustrated getting hounded by the Azarog through the city while I poke at it with everything I've got and get nowhere. This one could have used an application of the 3 Clues rule. An ancient library or somesuch. Maybe the Master of Ceremonies could be good for some answers if properly propitiated? Once again, I didn't take notes while I was reading, so maybe there were some hints and I've just forgotten them?
The art is great AND compliments the words in setting the mood. The maps are interesting, well designed and clean. Some issues in the printed version hunting for a scale in the Necropolis. Also, an unfortunate issue of dpi resolution blowing up those pixely circles for The Forum might have been worth a quick redo in Photoshop.
All in all, a great read, which is of primary importance to the consumer who may never get a chance to run the thing. Professionally formatted, well illustrated and entertainingly worded. It's easy to picture this in play without serious thoughts of modification or copious note-taking. Definitely some elements will frustrate and infuriate players, but not so much so that it's impossible to complete and I would imagine it will feel quite rewarding to do so as a result.
Good job guys, and thanks for a fantastic effort! I look forward to your next project!
I am very much looking forward to running this at the tabletop rather than over a VTT. That sense of crushing doom needs to be maintained in person I suspect.
The NPC's are interesting and invite rrrrole play. Careful notes and/or cue cards would have to be made to make sure they achieve their full utility. Depending on who the party bumps into first could swing the story in wildly different directions and that's intriguing.
I'm down with the numerous save-or-die (and in one case, no-save-just-die) traps. That's par for a grimdark meatgrinder. I feel like the players are well-warned by events leading up to this adventure and their should be no tears shed/molars gnashed.
I'm less down with the, not one, not two, but THREE godlike monsters in this lvls 3-5 (ha!) adventure. It's a lot. I get it, we're not holding hands here. Players are expected to be experienced and act with reason/caution. Still. That's three encounters that present as combats but are actually problems that need to be solved. One of this kind of Trick is usually sufficient.
With regards to that. I LOVE poor, sad Diorag and I think smart PC's should be able to resolve him without begging for hints/openly weeping. I love the chain-radius thing, but did you guys actually measure the dungeon? Because at it's current scale I estimate 400', not as the crow flies, but following the corridors to the edge of his radius and he apparently has 1000' of chain. Don't want to nitpick but, maybe I'm missing something? Even if those squares are 20' (which they might be since despite the scale on the map saying 10' the initial description describes the hallways as 20' wide); even if, that would mean it's 800' to the edge of that radius. Still plenty of chain to hunt the characters right out the front door of the palace.
Similarly, Uyu -Yadmogh should be resolvable as well. If people have reached his throneroom without picking up at least one weapon that can harm him then they deserve what they get.
The Azarog on the other hand is a complete motherfucker and easily the nastiest thing in this adventure, reminiscent of that awful thing in Return to the Tomb of Horrors. The only solution to it is WAY back in the Sphinx Cave which there is a good chance the PC's will never discover. Even if they do, there's little to indicate what they must do to rid themselves of that thing. I guess some groups might be cool with that kind of unresolvable issue but picturing myself as a player, I'd feel pretty frustrated getting hounded by the Azarog through the city while I poke at it with everything I've got and get nowhere. This one could have used an application of the 3 Clues rule. An ancient library or somesuch. Maybe the Master of Ceremonies could be good for some answers if properly propitiated? Once again, I didn't take notes while I was reading, so maybe there were some hints and I've just forgotten them?
The art is great AND compliments the words in setting the mood. The maps are interesting, well designed and clean. Some issues in the printed version hunting for a scale in the Necropolis. Also, an unfortunate issue of dpi resolution blowing up those pixely circles for The Forum might have been worth a quick redo in Photoshop.
All in all, a great read, which is of primary importance to the consumer who may never get a chance to run the thing. Professionally formatted, well illustrated and entertainingly worded. It's easy to picture this in play without serious thoughts of modification or copious note-taking. Definitely some elements will frustrate and infuriate players, but not so much so that it's impossible to complete and I would imagine it will feel quite rewarding to do so as a result.
Good job guys, and thanks for a fantastic effort! I look forward to your next project!