General Discussion

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
It has nothing to do with balance. I don't need encounters to be balanced. But I do want to know what I am creating, and I want adaptations to give an experience as similar as possible to the original. And I want to be able to telegraph to the players what they are facing, other than "There's a troll - oh, too bad, so sad, this troll turned out to be more dangerous that you thought it would be, based on your encounters with other trolls." .Plus, knowing the relative toughness of creatures has an impact on how the creatures relate to the world, and their position in it.
I know you said you were dropping the topic, but I have lingering questions.

First, what system are you converting to that doesn't have the monster stats you need? Every version of the game has trolls and orcs and goblins and whatever, so there shouldn't be any need to convert any of the common monsters. Why wouldn't you just use the existing monsters already balanced inherent to the system? Failing that, what's the problem with choosing a monster of approximate toughness extant in the system and cribbing stats from it?

If you know your homebrewed Bogwomph is supposed to be about as tough as a 4e troll, you've got 4e Troll stats to look at already, no? If a troll is AC 13 and a Bogwomph is AC15, do you think players are going to halt play because of unfairness? The players aren't going to know any of the mechanics of the thing, they really don't need to be that precise; players care about three things in a fight: 1) how many swings to take it down, 2) how much it hurts when it hits us, and 3) what kind of freaky powers do I need to deal with.

Besides, if an edition is supposed to be self-contained, why worry about what players know about the difficulty of monsters in *other* editions? It's irrelevant to play. Telegraphing difficulty is done ludologically, in-game; you don't say "these things look at tough as 3e orcs, but they're gnolls instead" - you say "these gnolls are slathering and viscous-looking, ready to tear you apart", and let the players come to understand their toughness through combat.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
First, what system are you converting to that doesn't have the monster stats you need? Every version of the game has trolls and orcs and goblins and whatever, so there shouldn't be any need to convert any of the common monsters. Why wouldn't you just use the existing monsters already balanced inherent to the system? Failing that, what's the problem with choosing a monster of approximate toughness extant in the system and cribbing stats from it?

If you know your homebrewed Bogwomph is supposed to be about as tough as a 4e troll, you've got 4e Troll stats to look at already, no? If a troll is AC 13 and a Bogwomph is AC15, do you think players are going to halt play because of unfairness? The players aren't going to know any of the mechanics of the thing, they really don't need to be that precise; players care about three things in a fight: 1) how many swings to take it down, 2) how much it hurts when it hits us, and 3) what kind of freaky powers do I need to deal with.
Two first level characters would be an even match for a bog standard 4e troll. As would four kobolds. A 1e troll would kick two 4e troll's asses.

The designers of 4e thought that fights were more interesting if there were more more opponents. I don't disagree, but instead of gearing encounters towards using monsters that were already weak, they weakened existing monsters so you would encounter them earlier, and fight more of them at a time. So by third level, with the 4e standard 5 PC party, you could easily handle two trolls, probably take three trolls, and have even odds against four trolls.

I don't know why is isn't clear that the dynamics of a module change if you change the relative toughness of monsters to each other within the module. If I was adapting B2 and just swapped in 4e monsters, the kobolds would be slightly tougher than the goblins, the orcs would be slightly tougher than the hobgoblins, and the ogre and the minotaur are each the equivalent of a gnoll. The bugbears are slightly weaker than the gnolls. The kobolds end up being one of the toughest factions, along with each of the orc factions. It is a module designed for faction play, and the dynamics of the factions change significantly if the two orc factions compbined could take out the rest of the complex. It also changes the dynamic if your first level PCs are close to twice as tough relative to the monsters as they would be 1e, with the only exception to that being the kobolds.

A one for one swap just isn't going to work. And to anticipate an argument, you can't just put in more monsters unless you know how many more to put in, which requires to to have some sort of estimate as to how tough the original monsters are.

BTW, if your 4e bogwomph has an AC two points higher than a 4e troll, the odds are pretty good that it also has an attack bonus 2 points higher, 16 more hit points, does 3 points more damage on an average attack, and in general is about 50% tougher than the troll. That is, two bogwomphs would be an even match for three trolls. That has a significant impact on "1) how many swings to take it down, 2) how much it hurts when it hits us".

Failing that, what's the problem with choosing a monster of approximate toughness extant in the system and cribbing stats from it?
Well, I have to know the toughness of the original monster in order to know what would be approximately as tough as it.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I don't know why is isn't clear that the dynamics of a module change if you change the relative toughness of monsters to each other within the module. If I was adapting B2 and just swapped in 4e monsters, the kobolds would be slightly tougher than the goblins, the orcs would be slightly tougher than the hobgoblins, and the ogre and the minotaur are each the equivalent of a gnoll. The bugbears are slightly weaker than the gnolls. The kobolds end up being one of the toughest factions, along with each of the orc factions. It is a module designed for faction play, and the dynamics of the factions change significantly if the two orc factions compbined could take out the rest of the complex. It also changes the dynamic if your first level PCs are close to twice as tough relative to the monsters as they would be 1e, with the only exception to that being the kobolds.
The dynamics only matter insofar as they can be directly compared.

If you were adapting B2, for example, and used the kobolds and goblins from 4e (and let's say for argument's sake that 4e kobolds are stronger than both 1e kobolds were and 4e goblins are), the party's approach would only change if they knew that kobolds are stronger than they were expecting (i.e. if they were metagaming); otherwise, they fight what they fight, and they end up where they end up. If they start dying sooner than expected, they beat a hasty retreat - if they slaughter the kobolds easily, then they move on. Ultimately though, that choice falls on *them* (agency), not on you the DM balancing things so that the players know that they should run from kobolds (railroading).

Likewise, any world-generated dynamics between the kobolds and goblins are at your (the DM's) behest - if 4e kobolds are stronger than 4e goblins, you can expect the kobolds to win out over time... but also *it's entirely probable that the goblins could win through circumstance*, meaning the relative strength of the kobolds is moot (you could just say the goblins fought with better plans or whatever). The players will not care; all they will care about is "check it out, no more kobolds are around!" It's also irrelevant if the goblins would totally have won against the kobolds in the original B2, because *your party is not playing the original B2*, they are playing your version of 4e B2, which is different.

Unless they are somehow fighting both 1e kobolds and 4e kobolds at the same time, only one variant exists in your world, so the party will come to understand it's strength through encounters, not pre-set expectations. A kobold (of any edition) is as strong as a kobold, and that's all it needs to be.

You don't need to preserve the dynamics of a module via conversion - you only need to make the module function as a module (i.e. you can run it easily, and it doesn't slaughter the characters unfairly). Your job is to present the world - if that world is a little harder or a little easier than some alternate-reality other-edition world, it doesn't matter, because the players will not be making that comparison. The players will rebalance things organically through their choices/actions, assuming they are competent. They will avoid fights that threaten them, and will take fights they deem easy; you, as the DM, are not meant to guide that effort, especially not if it means tearing your hair out trying to match a 4e kobold to a 1e goblin or whatever.

Worst case scenario - you run a test game and say "gee, those 5 orcs in Area 17 were just way too much, I'd better reduce that number to 3 orcs", and it gets resolved in version 1.2. Which really only matters if you're publishing this, in which case - you do playtest, right?
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
BTW, if your 4e bogwomph has an AC two points higher than a 4e troll, the odds are pretty good that it also has an attack bonus 2 points higher, 16 more hit points, does 3 points more damage on an average attack, and in general is about 50% tougher than the troll.
You just added all that extra stuff. Assuming a mostly-direct conversion, then mechanically a Bogwomph is identical to a troll except that it has 2 more points of AC (to account for a slightly inaccurate conversion). With that in mind, if you didn't tell your players what they were facing, would it be safe to assume they wouldn't be able to distinguish between a bogwomph and a troll?

If I ran two combat sessions for you against two unidentified enemies that turned out like this:

Fight 1 - The enemy took at least 78 points of damage to die (from 6 hits, lowest roll that hit was a 16, highest roll that missed was a 12), and it did 35 points of damage to the party from 4 hits.

Fight 2 - The enemy took at least 85 points of damage to die (from 7 hits, lowest roll that hit was a 15, highest roll that missed was a 13), and it did 29 points of damage to the party from 4 hits.

Could you tell me with certainty that those monsters were the same creature, or were they entirely different? Were those fights against two trolls, two bogwomphs, or against one troll and one bogwomph? If you can't answer that with conviction, then you'll hopefully see why we say conversions have a lot of wiggle room.
 
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The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
So by third level, with the 4e standard 5 PC party, you could easily handle two trolls, probably take three trolls, and have even odds against four trolls.
Oh my god! NOOOOOOO!
I mean, okay, I know they stuffed a troll into the early stages of "Return to Keep on the Borderlands" (2e), but he's asleep when you encounter him. A troll is like Fireball; it's how you know you've made it to 5th level in all editions!

Honestly, a lot of the time, when running 1e conversions, I just run the majority of monsters as-is; shitty hp and AC's (converted to ascending) and all. The players cut a swath through them and everyone has fun. I choose a couple of set-piece/mini-boss/boss encounters and completely restat them using 3e tools, and that provides a couple of surprising challenges as punctuation to the adventure day.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I would know more of this "Bogwomph"...
More toad than troll surely. Matted hair? Lazy lurker? Tortoise shell? AL: N (hungry)? Wis: 18?
A mysterious and evasive albeit dangerous creature - thrives entirely in darkness, like a slimy grue.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I can appreciate what @Beoric is trying to do, emulate the original module faithfully with modern rules. Sure, it's not for everyone but it sounds interesting to me.


The Heretic
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I can appreciate what @Beoric is trying to do, emulate the original module faithfully with modern rules.
The issue is, you sort of can't. The most you can do is approximate, but it will never be a direct conversion. If converting means you need something stronger than goblins (like orcs instead) to balance things, then you haven't preserved the original at all - you've just replaced one thing with another different thing. At best, you get something that *might feel* a little like the original (but also won't feel like it, because all those goblins are actually orcs now); at worst you get a totally broken adventure. Converting requires adaptation, adaptation means change, and change means the new piece is no longer faithful to the original.

Many people have tried, nobody has succeeded. I challenge anyone here to name even one module that was converted to another edition that felt exactly the same as the original did. If we've learned anything from Bryce's reviews, it's that it just doesn't happen.

I can appreciate what Beroic is doing too, but that doesn't mean it's entirely feasible.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Many people have tried, nobody has succeeded. I challenge anyone here to name even one module that was converted to another edition that felt exactly the same as the original did. If we've learned anything from Bryce's reviews, it's that it just doesn't happen.
Most conversions are lazy, but IME even the ones that aren't don't try to emulate the feel of the original. A good example is with finding secret doors and traps and things like that. They get converted to the modern version's perception/trap-finding rules, which to be clear, is easy mode. So for example, your 1 in 6 chance to find a secret door in 1e becomes a 50-50 chance in modern editions.

When I do it, I figure out the odds of success in the original, and try to replicate it in 4e. That may mean a trap is higher level (since traps have a level assigned to them in 4e), and is worth more XPs, but I'm fine with that. Usually an appropriate level trap in terms of danger is also (barely) within the parameters of suggested encounter design anyway. I also encourage narrative approaches to finding and disabling these things, and I've pretty much adopted Courtney's approach to telegraphing danger.

Some things aren't a good fit, for example, save or die doesn't work well in 4e. But I've got a pretty good model for estimating the danger of save or die monsters/traps/whatever, so the worst something gets is that the monster might be just as dangerous in a slightly different way. Level drain also isn't a good fit, because it is so freaking complicated to de-level and re-level, but like 3e does with ability score damage, I use different semi-permanent penalties to similar effect - loss of healing surges and attack roll penalties are pretty similar in effect to losing a hit die with the consequent loss of hit points and level on attack tables.

Other than that, all I can really say is the game ends up feeling to me, personally, pretty much the way the game felt when we were playing 1e.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I've been reading some 3.5e Eberron modules and ruminating on a few things, one of which was how few encounters there are for a given page count than with early TSR stuff. And yet you are still expecting to go up a couple of levels, which led to me assuming that the number of encounters to go up in level had to be less in modern games than in earlier editions. In 4e you generally expect to level every 8ish encounters, which ends up being more like 7 if you tend to write tougher encounters.

But I was curious about just how quickly you leveled in 1e. So I assumed a first level party was in a first level dungeon. I used Appendix C to estimate the average XPs from combat for a given encounter (using a few simplifying assumptions, and weighting the probability of getting a level I, II or II encounter), which came out to 53 XP. I used the tables in Appendix A to determine an average treasure haul for a treasure hoard with no monster (196 gp) and a hoard protected by a monster (443 gp). I also used the tables in Appendix A to weigh the chances of getting a monster with no treasure, a monster with treasure, and a treasure with no monster, which led to an average XP haul of 272 XP.

Which seems kind of low, especially since the norm at the time was for larger parties. The tables for NPC parties in Appendix C assume a party of 9, with 2-5 PCs and the remainder being men-at-arms or henchmen. But even assuming a party of four (and averaging the XP-to-level for a cleric, fighter, MU and thief), you are looking at 26 encounters to level. I remember levelling being slow, but I don't remember it being that slow.

It's possible I screwed up the math, but the math isn't actually that hard. So I'm wondering how that tracks with everyone's experience?

Also, one other interesting thing; experience gained this was was 16% combat and 84% treasure. I'm assuming Gygax was using a target of 15% combat and 85% treasure, which also tracks with my memory of somebody's (Delta's?) post in this regard.

I'm sure Delta has written something about encounters to level, but he's been pretty prolific for 18 years and has no search function, so 🤷‍♂️?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Another thing that is interesting about these Eberron modules is how poorly suited they are to the goals of the setting. The original plan for Eberron was to have it support noir (think The Third Man, the Maltese Falcon or Chinatown) and pulp adventure (pulp westerns, Tarzan or Indiana Jones). And the setting very much does that (although it also supports a more classic or OSR game, for reasons that I think I have discussed elsewhere). But it is pretty clear that module-writers didn't have a great idea of how to pull it off.

The noir modules lean pretty heavily into very linear, largely event based adventures, where (it seems to me from reading it) the players are really just along for the ride. So the characters may be "inquisitives" (Eberron speak for private investigators), but there is not a lot of actual room for investigating; one scene just moves to the next, one after another, until the (combat) climax encounter.

It seems to me like it would be much better to give them, or allow them to choose, investigative resources. So they have some sort of capital to spend, but instead of getting gear, you get contacts, all of which have pros and cons. This gives the party a way to evaluate evidence if they can't figure it out on their own (and let's be clear, DMs and module writers aren't great about recognizing what will or will not be figured out by the players). But each contact comes with a price and a level or risk, so you have to choose who to ask for a favour, or pay fees/bribes to. And you can't just go to all of them, because there is time pressure in the form of randomly occurring encounters with the villain's agents, people with a score to settle against you or your client, the city watch that thinks you are the criminal, rival inquisitives, etc.

Same with the pulp stuff. The usual model tries to emulate an Indiana Jones plot, following a string of clues from exotic location to exotic location. And the locations are exotic! But you would never know that from the modules. In Raiders, Peru was tonally different from Nepal, which in turn was different from Cairo, and the events, resources and dangers in those locations have a local colour. The modules don't do that at all, every location seems the same, and every NPC is culturally generic D&D. The example that I just read yesterday is particularly irking me; if you travel to a nation that is literally governed by goblionoids for goblinoids, why is your main contact an ex-pat human? This is your chance to showcase something really cool from the setting, and show why it works, why are you blowing this? (This is more a critique of WotC than the author, I am aware that parts of the module suffered from executive meddling.)

I mean, at the least you could distinguish places by the weather. Is it too hot to wear armour? Does snow slow travel? Is there a cold, sustained drizzle that makes it harder to recover when you rest (and you thought the canvas tent would be too heavy!). Does a blizzard impair visibility? Does the town just stop in the afternoon, because there is a regular downpour? Is it too windy for arrowfire? Are the streets always blanketed in a dense fog?

Plus they don't do travel well. Yes, in an India Jones movie, travel is handwaived with a red line on a map. But even that is a more interesting transition, because it gives you a sense of time, distance and location. When most of the game takes place in the players' heads, you need more than an announcement that you have arrived at your destination. Particularly if the planned travel is interrupted. Like when Jones and Marion are interecepted by the Nazis when sailing in the Aegean, that may be a surprise for a movie audience; but if you do the same thing in an adventure that handwaives travel, it is obviously a planned encounter that probably has nothing to do with the player's choices.

Plus, some sort of travel minigame gives another opportunity to show just what makes this exotic locale different from the last. I'm not saying every transition needs to be a hexcrawl, but I do think that the choice of route, conveyance, and travelling companions should have an impact on the risks of the trip. Do you join the slow, well guarded caravan, or buy horses (and from which dealer), or charter a sloop from the shady captain, or book passage on the passenger ship that won't leave for another 3 days, or blow a ton of cash chartering an airship?

In general, these modules don't handle transitions well. You are at one place, then you are at another. Sometimes there will be one planned encounter on the road. This does not work when you are working in genres that include interruptions in travel that occur because of the choices of the protagonist.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I've been reading some 3.5e Eberron modules and ruminating on a few things, one of which was how few encounters there are for a given page count than with early TSR stuff. And yet you are still expecting to go up a couple of levels, which led to me assuming that the number of encounters to go up in level had to be less in modern games than in earlier editions. In 4e you generally expect to level every 8ish encounters, which ends up being more like 7 if you tend to write tougher encounters.
That's interesting. I can't help you with the 1e levelling, but I can tell you that 3.0 (not sure about 3.5) aimed to have the PCs level after every ~14th encounter. That was based on their research on how fast the players and the DMs wanted to go.

It would be interesting to compare how fast 1e levelling was compared to 2e levelling, since 2e dropped the gold=xp standard.

The Heretic
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
In general, these modules don't handle transitions well.
I'm very curious if you've got an example queued up for a module that actually does overland travel well (that is to say, an example module where travel is not the entire adventure, like it is in something like Isle of Dread). I'm at a loss to think of one; even old school modules like Assassin's Knot were usually all abbreviated like "It is 2 days travel from Restenford to Garotten. When the party arrives...", and maybe at most you could get a random encounter table (usually a painfully generic one with entries like "2d4 goblins" and "1d3 giant spiders").
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
That's interesting. I can't help you with the 1e levelling, but I can tell you that 3.0 (not sure about 3.5) aimed to have the PCs level after every ~14th encounter. That was based on their research on how fast the players and the DMs wanted to go.
The 4e 8 encounters per level thing was also alleged to have been based on such research. But they may have been talking about a slightly different market. My impression is that WotC at that time was leaning heavily into organized play, like Living Forgotten Realms.

It would not surprise me if people who were playing with strangers half the time, in a very structured campaign with no time to spend on anything that wasn't directly contemplated by the modules, needed fast advancement to stay engaged. Because, whatever people may say about LFR, you will have a hard time convincing me that those modules were engaging in their own right.

I actually prefer slower advancement, mostly because there are so many interesting things that can be done in a given level of play, that I don't know why you would rush your way through them. But I definitely have players who would get cranky if I slowed it down. I'm hoping with my new group (if I ever get that going), I can keep it slower from the start.

I'm also hoping that my training rules will provide a steady drip of player facing goodies that keeps them engaged even if they level more slowly. I don't know if I've talked about this before. When a PC in my game gets enough XPs for a new level, he gets the basic stuff - purely mathematical things like bumps to attack bonus and more hit points - after a decent night's sleep. But if he wants a new feat or power, he is going to have to train for it. I don't make it hard to find people you can train with, at least for common classes, but it does mean that the purely additive parts of leveling and the features part of leveling can happen at different times.

I'm very curious if you've got an example queued up for a module that actually does overland travel well (that is to say, an example module where travel is not the entire adventure, like it is in something like Isle of Dread). I'm at a loss to think of one; even old school modules like Assassin's Knot were usually all abbreviated like "It is 2 days travel from Restenford to Garotten. When the party arrives...", and maybe at most you could get a random encounter table (usually a painfully generic one with entries like "2d4 goblins" and "1d3 giant spiders").
B2 has a small but workable map. N1 has a very small hex map, with different random encounters in each region. ToEE's map is a bit bigger, but again has regional variations in challenges; whereas I think T1 suffers from having no regional map. U2 and U3 both have overland components. I think S4 (Tsojcanth) and WG4 (Tharizdun) theoretically share an overland map, although the presentation is different in each module.

However, none of these deal with long distances. So no, I can't point to a module that exemplifies what I am discussing above. Sometimes you just need to come up with a new procedure. I think I would just eyeball the distance, terrain, weather, likely inhabitants, and the precautions taken by the players, and come up with an ad hoc assessment of frequency and danger level of random encounters, as well as how they would be affected by local colour. I would probably use the 1e DMG as a baseline. And it might not actually require significant changes in procedure, so long as you are aware of the problem when building your encounters/encounter tables.

For long distances, I think I would reduce the number of encounter checks for a given distance, based on the unit of time we are talking about. If travel is measured in days, it would be checks per day. But if travel is measured in weeks, it would be checks per week, and probably more significant encounters, because of the amount of time to rest between encounters makes every encounter the only one that day (breaking from the attrition assumptions of D&D), and because I would be handwaving more frequent but lesser encounters as being something that occurs but is not worth gaming.

As for making a system for publication, that would take more playtesting than I have time/inclination for, but then nobody is paying me to design or play D&D modules.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
However, none of these deal with long distances. So no, I can't point to a module that exemplifies what I am discussing above. Sometimes you just need to come up with a new procedure.
Agreed, I can't think of any.

With that being said, why chastise Eberron modules in particular for this, when no adventure to date has done it right?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Agreed, I can't think of any.

With that being said, why chastise Eberron modules in particular for this, when no adventure to date has done it right?
They are what I am reading at the moment. But also, Eberron has a stated intention to emulate particular genres, and the choices the writers and publishers make are particularly unsuited to those genres. The modules are basically vanilla Trad faux-Medieval D&D with the numbers filed off and new names pasted on with stickers.

And there are some structures that could be used that are already part of D&D. If you want a feeling of exotic places, you don't need a new mechanic in order to make those places exotic, and differentiate one from another. And if one of your tropes is "Explore the jungles of Xen'drik", that seems like a good place to have a traditional hexcrawl. If you have a bunch of different means of travel baked into the setting, all of which have pros and cons, why would you not make those choices part of the module?
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
If you have a bunch of different means of travel baked into the setting, all of which have pros and cons, why would you not make those choices part of the module?
*shudders in lightning rails*

I think Eberron's emulation goal is relegated solely to the steampunk genre, since that's the only apparent differentiation from traditional settings. Like, if you added air-elemental-powered zeppelins and steam-elemental-powered trains to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, you'd basically have 90% of Eberron right there. I actually refuse to touch it on principle (even though I own the sourcebooks) for the audacity it has to try and brand itself as something unique, when it's basically just magical steampunk Ren-faire. Conceptually, steampunk is only cool because it's cool to see gizmos powered by coal and steam - when that "steam" is just magic, it loses basically all of what makes it cool or different from normal fantasy.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I think Eberron's emulation goal is relegated solely to the steampunk genre, since that's the only apparent differentiation from traditional settings. Like, if you added air-elemental-powered zeppelins and steam-elemental-powered trains to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, you'd basically have 90% of Eberron right there. I actually refuse to touch it on principle (even though I own the sourcebooks) for the audacity it has to try and brand itself as something unique, when it's basically just magical steampunk Ren-faire. Conceptually, steampunk is only cool because it's cool to see gizmos powered by coal and steam - when that "steam" is just magic, it loses basically all of what makes it cool or different from normal fantasy.
There is so little in this statement that is true, that there is just no point in responding to it.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
There is so little in this statement that is true
News to me, care to elaborate?

I should preface by mentioning that I deliberately wrote "I think" before any of that, because what I was writing was opinion (sidenote - Why do people never catch that? It's not like we're chiseling laws into stone here; transitory debate is exactly what forums are meant for).

My understanding of Ebberon, which I already mentioned I refuse to touch, comes based off surface reading and a few game sessions there as a player about 15 years ago. In that time, I came to understand Eberron as one way: generic fantasy world with magic-powered steampunk elements. That was my base level, gut feeling about it. I'm certainly no authority on it. But like any sane person, if I am incorrect in my assumptions, I'm willing to change my viewpoint... but only if I'm presented with information beyond "there's no point in responding to it". A response like that doesn't do anything beyond make me think you're just a contrarian asshole (and I really hope you aren't just another internet asshole - that would be tragic).

So please, elaborate. I implore you. In what way is Ebberon not just Fantasy-gone-steampunk?
 
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