Best laid out non-dungeon module?
- Thread starter Two orcs
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DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
To me, a well-formatted document is two things: properly sequenced (no jumping all over the place - you can almost follow it along as you play), and properly referenced (easy to find what you need to find and with sensible information grouping).
The overland part of Deep Carbon Observatory is done up quite well. Not perfect, mind you (the Crows should have been an annex rather than smack in the middle of things, and single column format is a bit "ugh"), but certainly leaps and bounds over the traditional format.
Mines, Claws, and Princesses also has a certain appeal, even in it's janky three-column horizontal format. Things are well-condensed and nicely sequential there, although it's a dungeon adventure so I guess not what you're looking for.
It's funny that you mention how dungeons are basically like a flowchart and that's not what you're looking to hear about, because IMO the flowchart format is ideal for non-dungeon elements too, so long as a deft hand keeps things wrangled and an eye is kept on information clustering and usage.
The overland part of Deep Carbon Observatory is done up quite well. Not perfect, mind you (the Crows should have been an annex rather than smack in the middle of things, and single column format is a bit "ugh"), but certainly leaps and bounds over the traditional format.
Mines, Claws, and Princesses also has a certain appeal, even in it's janky three-column horizontal format. Things are well-condensed and nicely sequential there, although it's a dungeon adventure so I guess not what you're looking for.
It's funny that you mention how dungeons are basically like a flowchart and that's not what you're looking to hear about, because IMO the flowchart format is ideal for non-dungeon elements too, so long as a deft hand keeps things wrangled and an eye is kept on information clustering and usage.
Johann
*eyeroll*
Two hexcrawls immediately come to mind (both reviewed by Bryce): I've had a lot of fun with the easy-to-run Fever Swamp and I'm very impressed by The Dark of Hot Springs Islands (a.k.a. Swordfish Island), which seems to provide a ton of atmosphere and depth while being very usable (at least if you use itsonline tools) and offering a fantastic player's guide.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
So much eye-candy, but is it playable? I felt pretty frustrated at the end of reading it.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I may be misunderstanding the question but I love the absolute shit out of UK5 Eye of the Serpent. This Wilderness Map is so clear and lets a novice DM run it almost like a dungeon:
Also, while digging through my books looking for other examples, I stumbled over Vault of Larin Karr. Don't let the d20 edition put you off, this is an absolute kickass sandbox! Clearly laid out. Easy to find information. Plenty of hooks to keep things moving, but plenty of leeway to let players do their own thang as well. Everything is detailed, so your players won't wander into barely fleshed out villages or coyly hinted at mountain ruins. There's a timeline of events, paths that can be followed and rules for players who want to bushwhack overland. There's an Underdark for when the higher level PC's want to start shortcutting the overland stuff and, of course, a nice little dungeon at the end. This is easily top 10 for me.
Also, while digging through my books looking for other examples, I stumbled over Vault of Larin Karr. Don't let the d20 edition put you off, this is an absolute kickass sandbox! Clearly laid out. Easy to find information. Plenty of hooks to keep things moving, but plenty of leeway to let players do their own thang as well. Everything is detailed, so your players won't wander into barely fleshed out villages or coyly hinted at mountain ruins. There's a timeline of events, paths that can be followed and rules for players who want to bushwhack overland. There's an Underdark for when the higher level PC's want to start shortcutting the overland stuff and, of course, a nice little dungeon at the end. This is easily top 10 for me.
Johann
*eyeroll*
I haven't run it, either. I'm a bit daunted by having to thoroughly read all of it -- after all, once I hand out the Players' Guide I gotta know my stuff.
That said, I think the hexcrawl procedures are concise and workable, the player map is nice, and automated encounter generation online look great.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I have looked at this but the railroad that results from cutting off pathways kind of turned me off. Is it as linear and it seems as written, and does it screw anything up if you just make all paths open? My inclination is to make all of the "gates" into obstacles that pose challenges, rather than a strictly binary open/closed gate.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
It looks like a sequence of strung-together sandboxes. Freedom while restricting. Kinda elegant, I like it.
It's about structure, not restriction. I think you have to weigh the fun that players will have following the sequence vs. the fun they have by being left to go wherever they want. Honestly, the freedom to go wherever is overblown, IMO - players usually want something to follow or somewhere specific to go. The human mind is very good at tricking us into believing we want choice choice choice when reality would dictate otherwise.
It's about structure, not restriction. I think you have to weigh the fun that players will have following the sequence vs. the fun they have by being left to go wherever they want. Honestly, the freedom to go wherever is overblown, IMO - players usually want something to follow or somewhere specific to go. The human mind is very good at tricking us into believing we want choice choice choice when reality would dictate otherwise.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm not seeing how the closed gates add to the module. They appear to make it linear to no purpose, especially if you aren't running it as a solo module.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
The gate elements add an obvious-to-the-players goal that I think benefits sandboxes. Though gates control access to the next areas, the players are still free in their approach to passing beyond them (from what I can tell based on a map and not the adventure documentation), able to work in the area just before the gates at their own leisure. For instance in the Slough Mires, the party has two exits to the same place, but also 13 areas to explore before arriving at the exit "gates", so it look like they're free to choose from 13 different sites before making a subsequent 2-choice exit. It looks like the gates serve to funnel the adventure, to keep it concise, rather than steer the whole thing around.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Mmm, and near as I can tell the gates are designed for solo play to make the PC the focus of play, rather than relying on the abilities of NPCs. That is, the gates direct the game toward things that your chosen class of PC is probably good at. But I prefer players to be able to make the decisions about what challenges they undertake.
And if you are using a group of players, there is no purpose to the gates at all.
While I agree that a sandbox can benefit from providing some direction so that players are not flailing about aimlessly, there are miles of difference between "some direction" and providing only one option. A single option does not a sandbox make.
The Slough Mires only look like a sandbox because you are not familiar with the map key. All those open circles are gates, so there are actually only 5 areas, and which ones you hit are determined by which gates are open. If you leave the path to go into the swamp, every step you take is into deadly quicksand, which makes it statistically improbable that you would make it to the next path if you try to cut through the swamp, as you would likely have to be rescued 2000 times taking the most direct route to the exit.
And if you are using a group of players, there is no purpose to the gates at all.
While I agree that a sandbox can benefit from providing some direction so that players are not flailing about aimlessly, there are miles of difference between "some direction" and providing only one option. A single option does not a sandbox make.
The Slough Mires only look like a sandbox because you are not familiar with the map key. All those open circles are gates, so there are actually only 5 areas, and which ones you hit are determined by which gates are open. If you leave the path to go into the swamp, every step you take is into deadly quicksand, which makes it statistically improbable that you would make it to the next path if you try to cut through the swamp, as you would likely have to be rescued 2000 times taking the most direct route to the exit.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Ah the white circles are gates, I see your issue with it now. I figured your gripe was about the sort of chokepoints connecting the different sandbox areas, which I had assumed you were talking about when you said "gates" - a misunderstanding I chalk up to the lack of a map legend and my not having a copy of the adventure.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Oh yeah, that whole Ranger/Druid/Monk-path thing. Yeah, I've never closed any of the paths, that's ridiculous. Even when I was a kid that seemed preposterous to me. It's definitely a railroad if you follow those paths, but pretty wide open yet contained like a dungeon otherwise. Which makes it an amazing 1st lvl, introductory adventure.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I've never had trouble with Drivethru and that's part of OneBookShelf or whatever it's called. Shipping is overpriced, but it's never gone through a SURPRISE! 'Customs Broker' (may they all die slowly and agonizingly of canceraids and burn for eternity in hell, amen)
TerribleSorcery
Should be playing D&D instead
I think they print a lot of DTRPG stuff in Canada, though.