squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I tried to follow that last post and felt like you zig-zagged on me so I couldn't keep it coherent. Distill it for me.
Simple heroic myths = bad?
5e - why you think it sucks, and why you're wrong
- Thread starter DangerousPuhson
- Start date
Simple heroic myths = bad?
I'll be honest, I'm not pointing to David or the Greeks as examples of characters I'd want to play, only as examples of how evil != cartoonish evil.
I can roleplay characters whom I detest, but it's a lot of cognitive effort and that can be stressful. I detest David and I detest the morality of the Greek heroes and I detest the (American Civil War-era) Confederacy, and so even though there are some really interesting ideas that you could explore about all of them, I personally am less likely to embrace them than to procrastinate exploring them.
Maybe in a one-shot or a How To Host A Murder dinner-party...I'm a little confused about your last sentence. Out of curiosity: are you saying that you're trying to get back to the us vs. them morality mindset because it's too prevalent in the real world? I feel like there must be a missing word or something in that paragraph because I am not quite following your meaning.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Those dudes have value when societies are small. When your society is large, it causes problems if dudes are despoiling everyone outside of their social circle. Kind of antithetical to the rule of law, you know?
I'm not even sure they have value when societies are small. If you've got a group of eight people, and four of them are Bill's faction and the other four are Bob's faction, and they're both totally indifferent to the welfare of the other faction, that seems like a recipe for a blood feud.
I think the case where they potentially have value happens only in a chicken and egg scenario: if Bill's faction is already indifferent to you because you're not Bill's bro, then there's less downside (from your perspective) to forming up around Bob. If Bill and his Jets hate you, you and your Sharks "might as well" hate them right back.
I.e. to a game theorist, whether to be or not to be an amoral Heracles-style hero is a Prisoner's Dilemma.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
This is a very interesting discussion.. Good thing he-who-shall-not-be-named is too busy to intervene. I don't see this thread devolving into flame war, as he fears.
Random observations:
I'd say that humanoids in 1e are more like the vikings. Raiding, pillaging, amoral scumbags you must deal with carefully. The anthropophagy is there to accentuate the alienness, and also probably a throwback to the fairy tale origins of many of these races.
It'd be like saying that Tolkien is homophobic because he has the good transformed wizard (Gandalf the White) opposing the evil transformed wizard Saruman, Saruman of the many colors (=rainbow, like the rainbow flag). That would be assuming too much about Tolkien (and also be historically wrong, as the rainbow flag didn't become a symbol until the late 1970s, after Tolkien had passed away).
Sure they might've subconsciously picked up some racism and pulled that into their descriptions of the evil humanoid races, but I think at best that was unintentional.
I'm glad you guys brought up Star Wars. George Lucas has said the Ewok/Imperial battle on the moon of Endor was supposed to be a reference to the Vietnam War. And yet you get the Neimodians in the Phantom Menace, who seem obviously inspired by the Japanese of the old serials. I doubt he meant them to be racist like that, but that's what he grew up with and he did it without thinking.
(Also I finally rewatched the Attack of the Clones for the second time recently. Ugh. That movie gave me a headache. I ended up hating EVERYONE, Obi Wan, Anakin, everyone, by the end of the movie. George isn't good at writing dialogue, and all of their personalities were grating).
Unfortunately the noble intent to erase some of these old racist throwbacks has lead to a sort of new McCarthyism. The easy, obvious racists have been (or had been) routed, so now the anti-racist are looking for even more subtle forms of it. These kind of things don't turn out well. People should chill out.
The Heretic
Random observations:
Gary did just this with World of Greyhawk, with the Suel cannibals in the Amedio Jungle and Hepmonaland.
That seems just as misguided as the people who declare that Gary was a fascist imperialist because of orcs. Sure, there may be some nasty people like you describe but there are also plenty of well meaning people that who are attempting to make the game more available for everyone.
Agreed. WoW did ruin everything, didn't it? The idea of equating race with real world culture seemed like a good idea at the time, but then it's lead to this.
I'd say that humanoids in 1e are more like the vikings. Raiding, pillaging, amoral scumbags you must deal with carefully. The anthropophagy is there to accentuate the alienness, and also probably a throwback to the fairy tale origins of many of these races.
To me that seems like too much of a stretch. It's assuming too much about the intentions of said authors.
It'd be like saying that Tolkien is homophobic because he has the good transformed wizard (Gandalf the White) opposing the evil transformed wizard Saruman, Saruman of the many colors (=rainbow, like the rainbow flag). That would be assuming too much about Tolkien (and also be historically wrong, as the rainbow flag didn't become a symbol until the late 1970s, after Tolkien had passed away).
Sure they might've subconsciously picked up some racism and pulled that into their descriptions of the evil humanoid races, but I think at best that was unintentional.
I took that to be that they were similar to the Ogre Magi. They have origins in the 'distant east'. Ogre Magi, at the very least, were a way to bring Oni into the faux European D&D setting. I wouldn't presume this to mean Gary is racist. I do also think it is entirely possible that he's unconsciously grabbing from early 20th century mass media. Who knows? <shrug>
I'm glad you guys brought up Star Wars. George Lucas has said the Ewok/Imperial battle on the moon of Endor was supposed to be a reference to the Vietnam War. And yet you get the Neimodians in the Phantom Menace, who seem obviously inspired by the Japanese of the old serials. I doubt he meant them to be racist like that, but that's what he grew up with and he did it without thinking.
(Also I finally rewatched the Attack of the Clones for the second time recently. Ugh. That movie gave me a headache. I ended up hating EVERYONE, Obi Wan, Anakin, everyone, by the end of the movie. George isn't good at writing dialogue, and all of their personalities were grating).
Unfortunately the noble intent to erase some of these old racist throwbacks has lead to a sort of new McCarthyism. The easy, obvious racists have been (or had been) routed, so now the anti-racist are looking for even more subtle forms of it. These kind of things don't turn out well. People should chill out.
The Heretic
I like to imagine that the Endor battle was quite a bit bloodier and more serious than we see onscreen, and that the camera shows only the 1% of Ewoks who got freakishly lucky against the stormtroopers. That most engagements had heavy casualties on both sides, Ewoks and stormtroopers. I like the idea that many of the Ewoks knew they were facing death: that Endor is more like Gettysburgh than the Battle for Hogwarts.
I think this is consistent with Lucas's thematic intent, even if he chose to keep the movie PG.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Yes, that is my point. It is usually not intentional, it comes from unconscious associations. I argue that it also perpetuates those associations, as the work becomes part of the collective unconsciousness.
There is a lot of overt bigotry on display at the moment, and it is easy to identify and reject that sort of thing. It is much harder to confront one's own unconscious biases, or take a hard look at how beloved works might have contributed to one's unconscious biases. But I don't think the answer is to condemn (most of) those works. I think it is enough if they are part of a media environment where such depictions are in the minority. It is the repetition and pervasiveness of portrayals that creates associations between those portrayals and the groups portrayed.
I think an example of this is the way depictions of goblins got worse over time. The AD&D goblin has a description that is only vaguely stereotypically Asian, and the picture in the MM isn't particularly Asian. But over time, that "yellow through dull orange" colouration in D&D art got closer to the colours used in caricatures of East Asians. And by the time you get to the 3e MM, the artwork looks very much like caricatures of Japanese or Vietnamese soldiers. And the personalities also grow more like negative Asian caricatures, with depictions generally being cowardly, treacherous, gullible, cruel, not particularly competent, and chattering in their own language or in broken
A few comic book examples:
Insanely frenetic 1944 comic book cover - Boing Boing (note how small these guys are)
Imperial Japan (Earth-616) | Marvel Database | Fandom
Captain America Comics #13, 1942 [Marvel Comics, WWII] : r/PropagandaPosters (reddit.com)
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Are you talking about this guy?
not seeing it.
As for goblins, I'm more of a fan of the 40k Gobber as kind of evil mechanical genius. As most of the people I associate with speak in broken English, I'm just super grateful that they're willing to meet me at my hegemonous lingua Angla, because I can't for the life of me learn the grammar of whatever they're speaking. Goblins speaking in broken English is just a way of paraphrasing the Characters' understanding of Goblin, or of depicting the Goblins attempting to speak the PC's Common tongue. You really have to stretch to find any Asian in there.
And yeah, without being a complete psychopath like R. Scott Bakker and inventing entire languages, a DM is going to have to reach for some cultural tropes, particularly (usually comically poorly performed) foreign accents in order to depict otherness in their NPC's. Which is kind of why I can forgive the Star Wars aliens (although the Trade Federation and Gungans were a little much I guess).
The above is apologism, but I still think it's fair. There's a pretty clear line between innocent cultural ignorance and deliberate malice. When I first landed in Ottawa when I was a kid, it was the middle of winter and I had to go to the school for hardcases for a semester while I waited for a spot at the neighbourhood highschool. The gaming group at this school was a pack of Heritage Front skinheads. The DM had methodically converted all the humanoids in the classic AD&D adventures to black people, Asians, Mexicans, etc. It was fucking evil. I staid well clear of those fuckers.
not seeing it.
As for goblins, I'm more of a fan of the 40k Gobber as kind of evil mechanical genius. As most of the people I associate with speak in broken English, I'm just super grateful that they're willing to meet me at my hegemonous lingua Angla, because I can't for the life of me learn the grammar of whatever they're speaking. Goblins speaking in broken English is just a way of paraphrasing the Characters' understanding of Goblin, or of depicting the Goblins attempting to speak the PC's Common tongue. You really have to stretch to find any Asian in there.
And yeah, without being a complete psychopath like R. Scott Bakker and inventing entire languages, a DM is going to have to reach for some cultural tropes, particularly (usually comically poorly performed) foreign accents in order to depict otherness in their NPC's. Which is kind of why I can forgive the Star Wars aliens (although the Trade Federation and Gungans were a little much I guess).
The above is apologism, but I still think it's fair. There's a pretty clear line between innocent cultural ignorance and deliberate malice. When I first landed in Ottawa when I was a kid, it was the middle of winter and I had to go to the school for hardcases for a semester while I waited for a spot at the neighbourhood highschool. The gaming group at this school was a pack of Heritage Front skinheads. The DM had methodically converted all the humanoids in the classic AD&D adventures to black people, Asians, Mexicans, etc. It was fucking evil. I staid well clear of those fuckers.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Yeah sorry, trying to convey a lot of thoughts all at once. I've been tripping on the Bronze Age Collapse for the last little while, so there's a lot of muddled information rattling around in my head. Also, I loved Christian Cameron's "Against All Gods". It stabbed me right in the Titanomachy.
moving on.
I think what I'm getting at is, look at movies from the 70's. They're often gritty and the FX are excruciating to watch, but the heroes reflect a way of thinking that is (probably justly) gone. But that was the mindset of the people who created this game. I mean if we're digging around in D&D's past, reconstructing the lightning that got trapped in the bottle, I think that's one of the things. These people didn't think like us. Life wasn't as precious. Morality was more arbitrary. The hero was a hero due to the boldness rather than the rightness of his deeds. And you see that a lot in these early heroic-age characters. So I've been trying to capture that, or nudge my game towards that. That sort of performing awesome stunts and being lucky enough to land on the right side of evolving history feeling.
I thought maybe DCC would do it for me, but so far I'm having trouble getting the guys on board.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
No, that's a hobgoblin. This guy:
And here is the 4e one:
Compare to the links in the post above, plus these:
ww2 propoganda japanese - Google Search
ww2 propoganda japanese - Google Search
ww2 propoganda japanese - Google Search
ww2 propoganda japanese - Google Search
ww2 propoganda japanese - Google Search
ww2 propoganda japanese - Google Search
Fang (WWII) (Earth-616) | Marvel Database | Fandom
Captain America Comics #39 Okajima pedigree (Timely, 1944). Captain | Lot #5003 | Heritage Auctions (ha.com)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS #40 CGC VF- 7.5; OW-W; rare, Japanese WWII cover! | eBay
ww2 captain america japanese - Google Search
It's actually getting harder to find the worst images (and clearer parallels) from the 40s, which I would like to think is a good thing, but may just be because Google is starting to suck. I did a post a few years back which included propaganda images closer to the D&D ones, but I think the resemblance is still there.
At the very least, in the comics and propaganda pics you can see how the Japanese were portrayed as not human, which I think shows that the argument that some of the D&D descriptions/images have inhuman elements doesn't hold up. Like, some of the pics show the Japanese as green.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Heh. It's even harder if you try to search for explicitly racist images, everything comes up super sanitized now. I note that, according to my argument, if this continues, the D&D images will eventually lose their racist aspect because they will cease to mirror negative images in pop culture.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Hey man. You've been right about a lot of stuff, and I value your strong cautions when I get them, but I'm just really not seeing this one. Are there any Asian game bloggers out there in this pasty-white hobby complaining about these stereotypes maybe?
Some groups that might actually want to complain include the Scottish, who must be sick of hearing their accent hijacked by idiot amateur comedians.
And oh my god, I live and hang out with a lot of Germans and these people put up with SO MUCH abuse.
I don't know, is this moving the goal posts or whataboutism? I am not good at this.
Some groups that might actually want to complain include the Scottish, who must be sick of hearing their accent hijacked by idiot amateur comedians.
And oh my god, I live and hang out with a lot of Germans and these people put up with SO MUCH abuse.
I don't know, is this moving the goal posts or whataboutism? I am not good at this.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
yeah...I've just never associated monsters with different races of people. It's super bizarre to me that it has even come up.
In comparison, it's like me saying the monopoly pieces symbolize different races of people and is racist. Does that make you scratch your head? because that's how I feel with this whole discussion/argument that has blown up in the past few years.
Only a few, like the gold dragon and the Ogre-Magi, where I was like oh, that must of come from Asian culture. The monsters are a compilation of myths and legends from all our cultures though (kobolds are German....does that mean kobolds represent German people now? omg kobolds are racist now?!!).
In comparison, it's like me saying the monopoly pieces symbolize different races of people and is racist. Does that make you scratch your head? because that's how I feel with this whole discussion/argument that has blown up in the past few years.
Only a few, like the gold dragon and the Ogre-Magi, where I was like oh, that must of come from Asian culture. The monsters are a compilation of myths and legends from all our cultures though (kobolds are German....does that mean kobolds represent German people now? omg kobolds are racist now?!!).
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
Well we germans are known to be hilariously racist ourselves
Maynard
*eyeroll*
You've got it backwards. It's not about intentionality or design. This is a user feedback issue. It's valid for someone new to the hobby to interpret racial subtext when they play and reject the game going forwards. It's valid for communities of players and developers to realign their games to try to include them.
The root of the endless arguments around this issue is an incredulity that people can really feel racial subtext from a game. People are quick to point out the lack of empathy this implies, but I understand there's a cultural disconnect - not everyone grew up in the racially charged atmosphere of America. Hell there are American enclaves without exposure to diversity.
We can't examine the hearts of those who make these complaints but I'm willing to take them at face value because orcs aren't that important to me and I'm perfectly capable of having fun without them.
I think there are macro American political feelings that these complaints are made to push an agenda against white people, or that the pushback against them is typical reactionary racism. These kinds of feelings really fuel the skepticism that I was referring to.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I definitely think groups should either evolve to accomodate they're divers players, or players should should look around the increasingly divers 5e hobby to find a group who fits their needs. I just object to every single cultural complaint getting codified into the DNA of the game. It feals like a slippery slope towards a different kind of totalitarianism sort of like what we're seeing in our academic institutions at the moment.
Definitely, overtly problematic issues need to be dealt with carefully, or done away with altogether though. Figuring out how to do that without neutering the game or pissing everyone off is unclear to me. One of my favourite things about those first books I got when I was a kid was that they were distinctly PG13 (R in 80's terms, I suppose), and it felt good to be entrusted with that responsibility. The tits in the MM and gore in the FF weren't lurid, they were an invitation to think like a grown up.
Definitely, overtly problematic issues need to be dealt with carefully, or done away with altogether though. Figuring out how to do that without neutering the game or pissing everyone off is unclear to me. One of my favourite things about those first books I got when I was a kid was that they were distinctly PG13 (R in 80's terms, I suppose), and it felt good to be entrusted with that responsibility. The tits in the MM and gore in the FF weren't lurid, they were an invitation to think like a grown up.
Maynard
*eyeroll*
The developer issue is a market one, not a totalitarian one. There's simply more sales to be won with these changes than lost. Osr grognards who don't like change won't buy 6e books anyway. At some point the only vote WOTC understands is a wallet. The slippery slope reactionary impulse is probably overblown - there are enough groups and products for every taste its not a zero sum game. If 6e is written so cautiously it throws the fun baby out with the offensive bathwater all the better! We won't be in a WOTC Monopoly anymore.
What interests me in this topic is the language we use to talk about it. There's a lot of manifestos going around, lots of imperative language, declaring what's acceptable play and what's not (on both sides of the issue). There's a resistance to interogating why we feel so strongly about this stuff and, to openly examine differing perspectives. What about the nerd makes them so sensitive to the things they like being challenged? Why do we feel the need to police the way others play the game (on both sides of the issue).
What this really comes down to is an extra step in session 0 for all new groups where we should explore what parts of the game won't be fun for the players. I think that's something everyone in the hobby agrees on. All the cultural milliue around that issue is what blows it out of proportion.
What interests me in this topic is the language we use to talk about it. There's a lot of manifestos going around, lots of imperative language, declaring what's acceptable play and what's not (on both sides of the issue). There's a resistance to interogating why we feel so strongly about this stuff and, to openly examine differing perspectives. What about the nerd makes them so sensitive to the things they like being challenged? Why do we feel the need to police the way others play the game (on both sides of the issue).
What this really comes down to is an extra step in session 0 for all new groups where we should explore what parts of the game won't be fun for the players. I think that's something everyone in the hobby agrees on. All the cultural milliue around that issue is what blows it out of proportion.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Wow. Some of those are pretty nasty. To me, your last statement rings the most true. I don't see anything Japanese in the 3e MM goblin. To me the similarities boil down to the fact that both sets of illustrators wanted to apply the same monstrous qualities to their subjects.
As to the old propaganda itself? Well. I understand where it came from. They were engaged in a very bloody war with opponent that did some terrible stuff (Nanking, the death marches, etc). It's still disturbing, nonetheless, and I am glad things ultimately turned out for the better.
The Heretic
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Agreed. If you don't like it, don't play it. Live and let live.
Oof, to discuss this would go into tl:dr territory. Part of it is the resistance to change. The other part is not liking getting lumped in with Fascists. The big one is that people don't like their worldviews challenged. That part would get waaaaay too much into politics.
The Heretic
I'm not pasty-white. I'm green (or brownish-green). And two of my grandparents were Filipino.