5e - why you think it sucks, and why you're wrong

[Hemlock]

What interests me in this topic is the language we use to talk about it. There's a lot of manifestos going around, lots of imperative language, declaring what's acceptable play and what's not (on both sides of the issue). There's a resistance to interogating why we feel so strongly about this stuff and, to openly examine differing perspectives. What about the nerd makes them so sensitive to the things they like being challenged? Why do we feel the need to police the way others play the game (on both sides of the issue).

Speculation: I think maybe what's going on is that nerds are very comfortable pushing back even about design changes they're not especially sensitive about.

Like, if WotC mandates that all D&D 6E PCs are inherently ambidextrous (no right- or left-handed PCs), or that all PCs must have names with at least three vowels, you'll see pushback against WotC for that even from people who never spent a moment before today worrying about the vowel density distribution of fantasy names. It won't be universal pushback (some will be fine with it) but it will generate emotions and conflict.

And of course there are real underlying issues about which strong feelings do exist as well, such as "do fantasy names need to be plausible and sound familiar to Earthlings? Does fantasy realism matter?"

 

[Beoric]

Are there any Asian game bloggers out there in this pasty-white hobby complaining about these stereotypes maybe?

Tough ask. Not everybody wants to be the spokesperson for their people, or to expose themselves to the abuse that comes with activism. Or to risk feeding the tropes they are trying to avoid. Some tropes (angry Black man, or the whining ineffectual Asian man exemplified by Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's) actually target the people who speak up. And a lot of experiences are very painful, and people don't really want to re-live them by talking about them.

IME, generally people who are not activists only really talk about their personal experiences and opinions regarding prejudice if they have a lot of trust in you AND if it becomes somehow relevant, or the conversation takes an unusual turn.

Wow. Some of those are pretty nasty. To me, your last statement rings the most true. I don't see anything Japanese in the 3e MM goblin. To me the similarities boil down to the fact that both sets of illustrators wanted to apply the same monstrous qualities to their subjects.

As to the old propaganda itself? Well. I understand where it came from. They were engaged in a very bloody war with opponent that did some terrible stuff (Nanking, the death marches, etc). It's still disturbing, nonetheless, and I am glad things ultimately turned out for the better.

The Heretic

Negative images long predated the war, and didn't end with it. It is just easier to google for WW2 stuff.

 

[The1True]

There's a resistance to interogating why we feel so strongly about this stuff and, to openly examine differing perspectives. What about the nerd makes them so sensitive to the things they like being challenged? Why do we feel the need to police the way others play the game (on both sides of the issue).

You have theories to offer?

An observation I would add to this are metalheads, who are some of my favourite people. Long haired, manscara'd, and absolutely rebelling against society and all the fucked up shit back in the 80's and 90's; it's notable to me how many of my metalhead friends have clung to that identity while becoming some of the most deeply conservative people I know.

 

[The1True]

I'm not pasty-white. I'm green (or brownish-green). And two of my grandparents were Filipino.

Olive?
Well, god knows I've been guilty of advocating on behalf of people who didn't at all ask for my advocacy. Do you feel like there are shitty tropes and stereotypes in the older material of the hobby (that we're mostly all here to discuss) that make you personally uncomfortable?

 

[Malrex]

You've got it backwards. It's not about intentionality or design. This is a user feedback issue. It's valid for someone new to the hobby to interpret racial subtext when they play and reject the game going forwards. It's valid for communities of players and developers to realign their games to try to include them.

The root of the endless arguments around this issue is an incredulity that people can really feel racial subtext from a game. People are quick to point out the lack of empathy this implies, but I understand there's a cultural disconnect - not everyone grew up in the racially charged atmosphere of America. Hell there are American enclaves without exposure to diversity.

We can't examine the hearts of those who make these complaints but I'm willing to take them at face value because orcs aren't that important to me and I'm perfectly capable of having fun without them.

I think there are macro American political feelings that these complaints are made to push an agenda against white people, or that the pushback against them is typical reactionary racism. These kinds of feelings really fuel the skepticism that I was referring to.

That makes sense.
I think there is also stability--what I mean by that, is Ive been playing with the same group for 20+ years. We have a few players switch out once in awhile, but its pretty stable and diverse. We are in a bubble I guess, where we just don't really experience all the 'problems' that come up with a game we have been playing forever.

Overall, I just want people to enjoy the game as much as I do, in whatever style they wish to play in as it doesn't affect me. Trust me, after being labeled demon worshipers, watching D&D books burn, getting bullied in school because I play D&D, and recently being labeled a racist because orcs are in my game or because I enjoy 'OSR' instead of 5e or because I spoke/worked with so and so once and now blacklisted or whatever, I'm a bit exhausted and ultimately just want to be left alone with a hobby that I enjoy. I don't quite understand the incessant need by others to bring politics or real world issues into a fantasy game where some (most?) are trying to escape a bit.

If there are aspects of the game we don't like at our table--we change it...but we don't raise a stink about it and attempt to force others to make the same changes as well or make judgements upon people or blacklist them because we assumed since they spoke/worked with someone that they must share the same ideals. I guess Gen X is just built different.

 

[Hemlock]

Do you feel like there are [bad] tropes and stereotypes in the older material of the hobby (that we're mostly all here to discuss) that make you personally uncomfortable?

Yes, the very tropes I've been objecting to all along here, like claiming that orcs represent BIPOC because of their skin color while ignoring salient traits that make orcs fantasy Nazis.

When I was a kid I was very conscious of the way I looked, that it was different from other people, and that I was therefore unsure what my status was in American society. By the year 2008 or so that concern had entirely gone away because it was clear nobody cared, and we could judge each other not by the color of our skins but by the content of our characters. Since 2012 or so, unfortunately, people have started caring again, and WotC is one of them. Nowadays the bigots claim to be motivated by compassion, and maybe some of them are, but the impact is still real: people paying too much attention to skin color again and I feel nauseated.

Actions are what should matter, not appearance.

 

[The Heretic]

Yes, the very tropes I've been objecting to all along here, like claiming that orcs represent BIPOC because of their skin color while ignoring salient traits that make orcs fantasy Nazis.

Or fantasy Norse, for that matter. Raping, pillaging, conquering, enslaving, it's all there.

When I was a kid I was very conscious of the way I looked, that it was different from other people, and that I was therefore unsure what my status was in American society. By the year 2008 or so that concern had entirely gone away because it was clear nobody cared, and we could judge each other not by the color of our skins but by the content of our characters. Since 2012 or so, unfortunately, people have started caring again, and WotC is one of them. Nowadays the bigots claim to be motivated by compassion, and maybe some of them are, but the impact is still real: people paying too much attention to skin color again and I feel nauseated.

Actions are what should matter, not appearance.

That sucks. The paradigm shifted, alas. Originally the goal was to create a colorblind society, but then people started to notice that racists were exploiting this paradigm for their own uses. So here we are.

I'm glad to hear that you experience (up until 2012) went rather well. I feel for my nieces. They are Hispanic and when they moved to rural northern Wisconsin they had to deal with some pretty nasty stuff, especially on the school bus.


The Heretic

 

[The Heretic]

Overall, I just want people to enjoy the game as much as I do, in whatever style they wish to play in as it doesn't affect me. Trust me, after being labeled demon worshipers, watching D&D books burn, getting bullied in school because I play D&D, and recently being labeled a racist because orcs are in my game or because I enjoy 'OSR' instead of 5e or because I spoke/worked with so and so once and now blacklisted or whatever, I'm a bit exhausted and ultimately just want to be left alone with a hobby that I enjoy. I don't quite understand the incessant need by others to bring politics or real world issues into a fantasy game where some (most?) are trying to escape a bit.

Exactly!

There's been a big shift away from the 'live and let live' philosophy that was dominant with Gen X. I'm sad to see it go.

I mean, I suppose there is room to explore real world issues in game, but that depends on your group. AND that probably works better for story games, not OSR gp=xp style gaming. I've tried to explore some of these themes in the past and they failed spectacularly. I won't bore you guys with the details.


The Heretic

 

[Hemlock]

Or fantasy Norse, for that matter. Raping, pillaging, conquering, enslaving, it's all there.

A valid point, although I am not aware of any Viking analogue for the orcish love of cunning metalwork and war machines. To me that screams "Nazi tanks!" more than longboats, even though of course the orcs didn't have anything remotely as sophisticated as a Panzer tank.

But in D&D you totally could refight the battle of Gondor with more magic on the side of Gondor, and BattleMechs on the side of the orcs. Hmmm.

 

[The Heretic]

A valid point, although I am not aware of any Viking analogue for the orcish love of cunning metalwork and war machines. To me that screams "Nazi tanks!" more than longboats, even though of course the orcs didn't have anything remotely as sophisticated as a Panzer tank.

But in D&D you totally could refight the battle of Gondor with more magic on the side of Gondor, and BattleMechs on the side of the orcs. Hmmm.

Oh! I see where you're coming from. I'm thinking more of the 'goblins'/'orcs' (that's another debate) in the Hobbit. Left to their own devices they tend to be marauders (like the Norse), but get them united under a "Dark Lord" and they do get into all sorts of nasty things like war machines.

The Heretic

 

[Hemlock]

Oh! I see where you're coming from. I'm thinking more of the 'goblins'/'orcs' (that's another debate) in the Hobbit. Left to their own devices they tend to be marauders (like the Norse), but get them united under a "Dark Lord" and they do get into all sorts of nasty things like war machines.

The Heretic

Even in The Hobbit though it talks about their predilection for mechanical genius as a defining trait:

Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far. They did not hate dwarves especially, no more than they hated everybody and everything, and particularly the orderly and prosperous; in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them. But they had a special grudge against Thorin’s people, because of the war which you have heard mentioned, but which does not come into this tale; and anyway goblins don’t care who they catch, as long as it is done smart and secret, and the prisoners are not able to defend themselves.

 

[Maynard]

If there are aspects of the game we don't like at our table--we change it...but we don't raise a stink about it... I guess Gen X is just built different.

There's some survivorship bias inherent in situations like yours. If all the players you're interacting with have a 20+year relationship to the game, their gripes with it are unlikely to be structural. They bought into the premise years ago and now all that's left are course corrections. If any of those same people started playing now their expectations would be different. There's a whole cohort of Gen X who encountered and left the hobby in that 20 year span we have to examine if we want to evaluate the generation, then we'd have to do the same for millenials and gen z when they get to the current gen x age to make a meaningful comparison.

You have theories to offer?

Look to Malrex' post. Nerds have a long history of being forced to prove the legitimacy of their hobbies. Now that it's finally almost mainstream it can feel like a stab in the back to be challenged in this way by fellow nerds haha. This gets into pulling up the ladder behind you antics though. If you've really had such a hard time defining a comfortable niche for yourself in popular culture, why begrudge the young people of today who are struggling to do the same just because it's not in a way you recognize?

Revisiting survivorship biases, my main takeaway is that young nerds today have the security and numbers to ask for what they want. To freely explore their gaming interests without constraint. To draw boundaries about what's acceptable to them. This is a marvelous development. How many african american nerds didn't voice discomfort because there weren't any other gaming groups in their small town? How many simply bounced off the hobby when they read the DMG entry on orcs? How many women left the hobby after meeting the horny depiction of the medusa in B2, or after learning their female character had a strength penalty? We probably can't woo those people back to the hobby, but I'm glad we've gotten to a place where that happens less because nerds have meaningful options in how they want to engage with the game.

make judgements upon people or blacklist them because we assumed since they spoke/worked with someone that they must share the same ideals.

From what I understand this is personal for you and that's got to be frustrating. There's a cohort of people who just like to crusade on the internet and don't actually play games haha. The trick is to seperate your feelings about them from the people they claim to represent.

 

[Beoric]

... and recently being labeled a racist because orcs are in my game ...

Jeez, Malrex, I hope you don't think I'm saying that. I mean, I use orcs in my game. And goblins.

 

[Malrex]

Jeez, Malrex, I hope you don't think I'm saying that. I mean, I use orcs in my game. And goblins.

No, not at all!!
It's different here and none of my comments come from my experience on this forum, because we are discussing things instead of automatically labeling/judging. Ive always felt this place could be used as a platform where we may not agree with each other, and that's ok! Because there is a measure of respect for one another.
And although this discussion treads a dangerous slope, it's a way to learn, grow, and maybe change your mind on things.

And to answer Maynard's comment up above. I think I begrudge others for finding a comfortable niche for themselves, because their process is usually to attack or bring others down to do so (i.e. if you play OSR, then you are a racist--extreme example, but there it is). And my pet peeve is being judged for something that I didn't do or believe, especially when I'm just trying to mind my own business and enjoy a hobby. They don't have to do it that way, but they do and usually in a mob-like fashion, where some don't even want to come to the table to discuss the issue (and ya, its a bit personal, since that happened to me when I was trying to hire an editor and have been blacklisted on selling products on a semi-popular site, when I didn't even do anything).

I know not all are like that, and obviously, yes--I definitely want people to find a comfortable niche, but just don't try to bring me down in the process, especially when you don't know anything about me. Again--none of these comments are directed at anyone on this forum/discussion, it's directed at people....'out there' *waves his hands outward*. But I like Maynard's thoughts on survival bias.

 

[The Heretic]

From what I understand this is personal for you and that's got to be frustrating. There's a cohort of people who just like to crusade on the internet and don't actually play games haha. The trick is to seperate your feelings about them from the people they claim to represent.

I wish I could be as sanguine about this as you are, but there have been precedents. Look at the blacklisting of Courtney Campbell or the whole Zak S saga. These things can turn south very quickly.

Mind you, I've been doing some of the things they're talking about with 6e for years. The Always/Often/Usually alignment modifier they used in 3.0 was a godsend. I'm all for expanding things, but let's not be rigid about it, and let's not find insidious intent where there was none.

Story time! You guys get to hear a story from mah campaign! Years ago (almost 30 now, eek!), when during my senior year of college, I started a new campaign with a thoroughly African campaign. I invited a few friends to join, but I also got a response to a 'players wanted' notice I left at the local gaming store. We got together to create the characters, with me explaining the concept of the campaign and the rules on character generation. After a bit of hemming and hawing, the guy who responded to the want ad said "Do you mean we have to play black people?". Well, yes. He didn't come back for the second session. Too bad for him, that one was a lot of fun.

I was very harsh when talking about him at the time. Gawd, what a racist! I suppose now I'd be a little more tolerant. I mean, if you are hoping to play D&D the base assumption is that it is going to be in a fantasy European setting, with swords and armor and catapults and orcs. My campaign probably just wasn't what he was looking for.

(As for the African campaign, it sputtered out because we got too busy. I also didn't have a good foundation of material to run on. It morphed mostly into an Al Qadim campaign, but while it lasted it was a lot of fun)

The Heretic

 

[Osrnoob]

I hear PF2e wakanda might be good.

Setting coffee table, but good?

 

[Beoric]

And to answer Maynard's comment up above. I think I begrudge others for finding a comfortable niche for themselves, because their process is usually to attack or bring others down to do so (i.e. if you play OSR, then you are a racist--extreme example, but there it is). And my pet peeve is being judged for something that I didn't do or believe, especially when I'm just trying to mind my own business and enjoy a hobby. They don't have to do it that way, but they do and usually in a mob-like fashion, where some don't even want to come to the table to discuss the issue (and ya, its a bit personal, since that happened to me when I was trying to hire an editor and have been blacklisted on selling products on a semi-popular site, when I didn't even do anything).

Yeah, people tend to be judged by the most obnoxious people in the comments section of a blog. One of the reasons I stay very anonymous is because I don't want to be associated with some of the people I share a comment section with.

 

[The Heretic]

Even in The Hobbit though it talks about their predilection for mechanical genius as a defining trait:

Well there you go! It's been a few decades, I should go read the Hobbit again.


The Heretic

 

[Osrnoob]

You used to get credit for taking custom reading quizzes

Dune was easy

Charlottes Web was ok

Great Expectations was easy

Tale of two cities too.

C tales? Went fine

Hobbit? Nobody ever passed and it was one of the shortest books you could read.

 

[The1True]

Well there you go! It's been a few decades, I should go read the Hobbit again.

I'm reading it to my kids right now, dude. It is fucking radical. SO much stuff I didn't pay attention to when I read this (three times!) as a kid.

The use of the word Dungeon to describe the realm of the goblins was a big one. But yeah, just one D&D trope after another. I don't know how I could have thought Melnibone, Nehwon, and Cimmeria were the central driving forces for the game design. I'm still trying to puzzle out the parallels to WWI in the Battle of Five Armies, though.