The price of an adventure?

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
What you are talking about it pricing it so only people who actually want it buy it. If it is effectively free then everyone will get it, even people who suspect it is not their cup of tea.

Of course, then you also miss people who weren't expecting to like it but do, or expect they would like it aren't really in the market for new material. I imagine giving it away, and then getting on Bryce's "best of" list, could generate a certain amount of traffic on your site.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
That's true. My take is that it's better to build an audience that wants to buy it than the other way around. People who want it are more likely to talk about why they liked it - which is much more effective word-of-mouth. Paired with some free offerings so the curious can get a taste before putting out real money should allow anyone who wants it the ability to find out if your flavor is for them.

One of my questions with unknown authors is "are they confident in what they're trying to do?" If I see someone selling a lot of stuff for $2.99 I think "wants to get there but doesn't think their stuff is there yet" combined with "externally validated and likely writing whatever they think will get sales instead of their natural passion".
 

Ice

*eyeroll*
That's true. My take is that it's better to build an audience that wants to buy it than the other way around. People who want it are more likely to talk about why they liked it - which is much more effective word-of-mouth. Paired with some free offerings so the curious can get a taste before putting out real money should allow anyone who wants it the ability to find out if your flavor is for them.

One of my questions with unknown authors is "are they confident in what they're trying to do?" If I see someone selling a lot of stuff for $2.99 I think "wants to get there but doesn't think their stuff is there yet" combined with "externally validated and likely writing whatever they think will get sales instead of their natural passion".
Your last post made me wonder. Do people really bitch more about a PWYW or a 2 dollar PDF than a 5 dollar PDF? What about 10 dollar PDF?

What about a 4 dollar zine vs a 15 dollar zine?

This is a genuine question, since it seems like you guys have some experience with people whining about a PDF that they got for free or paid very little for. I personally can't imagine the person who would do that, but this is the internet we are on, after all.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Free, I rarely see complaints about. No one complains about those because they'll inevitably receive incredulous responses. But I've seen people complain loudly about very little issues if what they bought cost them $5. I'm a hot-take kind of guy, and IMO many of them are people who, in theory, dreamt of putting something similar out, and are really upset that someone with a bit more get-up-and-move beat them too it. Or that someone they just don't like is getting some positive feedback. Yes, we are petty creatures.

I'm not talking about reviews. I want critical reviews, of what I write or of what I'm thinking about buying. But since I'm not a reviewer, I only tell people about what I like. Talking about something I didn't like is just a corrosive waste of my time.
 
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DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
There's an interesting dichotomy in this market. You have two sides of a coin to look at: product quality, and seller-set pricing. What's interesting about this case though is that the two are largely independent of each other, which isn't the case in most other markets. You can have shit products being sold for big bucks, and amazing products being given away for free. It doesn't help that the feedback system is borked, so it's hard for users who felt ripped off to adequately express what a rip-off the product may be in a way that gets people to pay attention (the rating system is inaccurate; think about how many reviews pan 5-starred products). Likewise, the market is saturated, so the really good gems get lost in the shuffle until something like a glowing review comes out to bump their sales a bit.

I think that because of this dichotomy, there's no universal best approach for a pricing strategy. What it boils down to instead is going to be largely about branding. You need a reputation to sell consistently in this business. That's where the real benefits of free adventures and PWYW exposure gets you - industry recognition, with the intent that it pays off later. Same goes for the blogging circle; it's used to build brand by way of demonstrable insight into the game, production hype, and exhibited competencies in writing. All goes to building the brand of an author, to push product on the back of established reputation.

Chief problem - not only is the market niche, but the community in which one can even build reputation is niche. This is why I'd be loathe to market to the OSR community rather than the D&D community (of which OSR is a subset) - there's simply a much larger audience that's being ignored if you push yourself only onto OSR blogs and forums and whatnot.

For instance, if I were to announce on here (a place where I've posted quite a bit and am quite actively involved) that I have an adventure module being released, I might garner a few curiosity buys from you guys ("can DP put his money where his mouth is?"). At most, I could optimistically garner 10 sales from you lot, and that's after being at the heart of controversies, running the writing contest, having the most posts, etc. If I were to announce it on the few D&D subreddits I'm active on, then I suspect I'd easily get twice that many, and that's with me being largely a stranger to everyone there - I reckon that if I had a reputation in those places, I'd get a lot more. It's not just about building a brand; it's about building a brand within the most suitable community.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
All goes to building the brand of an author, to push product on the back of established reputation.

Chief problem - not only is the market niche, but the community in which one can even build reputation is niche. This is why I'd be loathe to market to the OSR community rather than the D&D community (of which OSR is a subset) - there's simply a much larger audience that's being ignored if you push yourself only onto OSR blogs and forums and whatnot.
This is a bit of what I was getting into with Malrex and Prince of Nothing in the review comments.

As you said, DP: niche market, 10 people and/or maybe 40 people. Melan talks on his blog at about 200 copies for a print run being about right.

Can we all stipulate, for the sake of argument, that there is not much money to be made here?

Also, as Malrex rightly points out, it takes quite a bit of cash to make a professional looking product.

Something doesn't jive in this equation.

What it comes back to for me is this --- What is your goal?

If it's to get rich (or even support yourself as a game designer), you are probably out of luck. Many have tried and failed---so odds are against you. This hobby has a long history (going back to its roots) of commerce and business endeavors tearing the heart out of it. For all the millions D&D once made, and might even be making for WotC now, you will be hard-pressed to make a living off of it. The market is super-saturated, etc.

That makes it a hobby for most, right? And we are often willing to sink an illogical amount of cash into our hobbies. That includes buying too much stuff we'll never use as well as investing in kickstarters for things we'd like to see made---that otherwise are not profitable.

But it's our hobby. It makes us all happy, so that's totally cool.

Again...What is your goal?

Here are some options:
(a) the joy of dabbling at being an entrepreneur---organizing a collaboration of talent, seeing a project come to life
(b) just seeing something of yours "in print" (aka "Look what I did!", Vanity Project)
(c) garnering recognition (aka "What do others think of me now?", "Street Cred")
(d) creating art (aka "What am I capable of making?" and "Is it beautiful/good?")

If it's (a), you need to spend money to make money---and balancing the books and/or making a profit is a measure of your success. It's the organization you are building that comes first, and the reward is the "thrill of the hunt". But ultimately what you are "hunting" is dollars.

If it's (b), you'll probably publish some overpriced half-arsed dreck that Bryce will rip apart. After your initial effort, you'll probably stop. Or maybe you and your friends don't care what Bryce or others say, cause you "did it!" (5 stars!) and now on to something else. Relatively low investment in time and money.

If it's (c), you are in the least enviable position because...well...this is the internet. Some will like. Some will hate. It probably will be an emotional roller-coaster. You are likely to be more inclined to invest time than money.

If it's (d), you will chase the muse through the gates of hell and back without much thought of consequences (or cost, e.g. hiring an editor). You will also probably fall short of your lofty ideals and maybe try again a few more times if you are pig-headed. Sales/recovering-costs is a secondary consideration because you already know you are hunting Snark. Lastly, you will want to show others because you are so excited when you are done. (Heard a radio show that mentioned how Paul McCartney likes to play his new albums to all his friends whenever they drop by his studio. Joy of creation, man---he doesn't need the money or the cred.)

----------

IMO option (a) or (b) has the best chance at quantity, but (d) has the best chance of quality---something that lasts. There are precious few of those in the scope of written adventures (and I think a lot have EGG's name on them....just because he 'got' D&D better than most and consumed his life in the pursuit of it. However, big-business eventually derailed him---which is an often-repeated tale in human endeavors. Pioneers first, then the profiteers.)

Sometimes a mixture of a talented business-savvy individuals teams up with a prolific creative talent and the two crank out the hits. It's magical when that happens, but so rare.

With D&D, I think the proverbial Bottom Line is just too low. That's why (for the amatuer) I advocate focusing on creativity and quality. Try to make something great. Enjoy the accolades if you succeed, and what you learned even if you don't. Focus on that, as opposed to the business-side of the equation because it has a greater probability of working out well for you. Have your head in the right place. It's a hobby. It's a gift-economy. The dollars are too small, so chase reputation (in small circles) and self-satisfaction in the process of creation instead. If your dream is to make something physically pretty, minimize consumer backlash via a Patreon/Kickstarter, but eventually maximize distribution (and semi-permanence) by giving away via PWYW for a zero-cost-to-distribute PDF. For print, by all means charge what it costs---it's only fair. But remember, profit implies an unequal exchange of goods: you got more out than you put in to it. Life has a funny, round-about way of rewarding people who are selflessly devoted to something we can all use and appreciate---it may open some doors to a professional gig, or it may just give you a sense of belonging to something larger than yourself. Who knows? Have you tried? What is the source of that voice egging you to slap a price tag on your work? At least "Know Thyself".

Those are my thoughts---heavily discounted by the fact that I've never published a D&D product.
(Probably should have said that up front and saved the casual reader some time. Oh well!)
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I know y'all think I'm cuckoo for advocating a non-economic motive for adventure production, but there are precedents in other fields. Personally I have seen it work in both the open-source software communities (the stuff that is running 90% of the world's servers) and scientific research (e.g. academic papers). The things that historically work best are inventors scratching a particular itch---creators that actually use their own products (as opposed to, as EOTB so elegantly put it in his blog, 'hired mercenaries').

There is a reason that the old Soviet Union couldn't make toilet paper but could put a man in space. Capitalism shakes the collective laziness out of us and assigns a fair price for both essentials and some luxury items. It's needed for the daily-slog, but there's a limit to its utility with regard to more lofty goals. Scientists and artists are generally motivated by something other than money. I'm suggesting that D&D content creation is better modeled by those professions.

Economics are perhaps not the best motivator in a purely discretionary niche hobby. We do not need mass-produced product in an endless stream for consumption. To me, what is really needed is a few dozen extremely high-quality examples to ignite and augment our own creative progress---fuel for our own campaigns. Great Works that teach us How-To-Do-It. This is not the entertainment industry. There is no need for a continuous stream of new mediocre content for daily consumption by the passive consumer. What is needed---like with technological research--- is just new ideas, even if only clever examples, or new twists on old themes (better data presentation!). We should ask ourselves, not just "Will people buy it? and "How much can I charge to maximize profit?"---but instead "How did I innovate?", "What does this say?" or "What can I do now with electronic medium that was difficult to do before?"--- Be artists!

(music swells to dramatic picture of a sunrise...)

Oh. Never-mind. I think I may be coming down with a fever.
 
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Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Hey Squeen...check this out, maybe you are on to something.....

This guy has it figured out: http://www.trilemma.com/
Check out his Patreon--https://www.patreon.com/adventures

He does 1 pagers for free. A 1 page adventure per month...600$, because people throw him a tip.

He had a widely successful Kickstarter (1400% funded) to make a book of his adventures...adventures that you could get for free.
He does excellent work, if you like 1 page adventures.

I don't think DrivethruRPG is the right platform for your free adventure model.

But when you do try it, and put your PWYW adventure up, and the music swells to a dramatic picture of a sunrise, and you manage to get a great review on it, and the 100's of free downloads go through, and the few nickles and dimes trickle in because people think its funny to do that for some reason and also allows them to give you 1-2 stars because they 'paid for it' to bring your whole ranking system down, and after three months you nod your head in satisfaction with the $1.89 you made because after 3 months your adventure gets drowned in the void by all the other new adventures coming out and may not see the light of day again.......get back to me and we can discuss more how worth it was for you to pay someone at 1 cent to 3 cents per word to make your adventure better (i.e. editor), as well as the 50$ per 1/4 piece of art because you wouldn't want to use stock art (4$) to express your creativity. Heck, Ill even buy you a coffee while we discuss.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Malrex, my good man, you always rise to the occasion!

I know that your head and heart is deep into this at the moment, so it's relevant to you.
Know also that you have my respect for what you are attempting. It's daring. It's brave.

I will rebut---I promise---but not until tomorrow. (I'm a bit swamped at the moment.)

In the meantime, if you are willing, please answer my rhetorical question.

"Why are you doing it?" or specifically "Why publish your work?".

Your honest answer predicates everything I might say.
 
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Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Malrex, my good man, you always rise to the occasion!

I know that you're head and heart is deep into this at the moment, so its relevant to you.
Know also that you have my respect for what you are attempting. It's daring. It's brave.

I will rebut---I promise---but not until tomorrow. (I'm a bit swamped at the moment.)

In the meantime, if you are willing, please answer my rhetorical question.

"Why are you doing it?" or specifically "Why publish your work?".

Your honest answer predicates everything I might say.
You got to admit...that was a great run-on sentence...eh?

"Why are you doing it?" or specifically "Why publish your work?".
"(a) the joy of dabbling at being an entrepreneur---organizing a collaboration of talent, seeing a project come to life
(b) just seeing something of yours "in print" (aka "Look what I did!", Vanity Project)
(c) garnering recognition (aka "What do others think of me now?", "Street Cred")
(d) creating art (aka "What am I capable of making?" and "Is it beautiful/good?")"

I think the honest answer is a mix of your a-d plus e.
A--high
B--low
C--very low, but high for the adventures to get recognition (i.e. people enjoy playing it).
D--High.
E. Having a hobby that I enjoy that breaks even. Having the skills necessary to have a self-sufficient hobby---yes, I completely understand that I will have to take a shitload of art classes, but the idea intrigues me.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
You got to admit...that was a great run-on sentence...eh?
Verily, 'twas a mighty rant, Belongs in a movie. (Here's an even longer-winded and less witty one right back at you....)

My only quibble with the picture you paint of me feeling Used-and-Abused by the grind of commerce and my lowly $1.89 (come on man, you could have thrown me a bone and made it an even $2!), is that that character you depict is just not me. The way the scene plays out actually runs contrary to my point. If (and only if) I was mentally and emotional invested in monetary profit from my efforts, what you predict would be devastating and I would regret having wasted a portion of my life.

Personally, I believe events would play out differently. I would be able to hold in my hands a (hopefully) quality product which which I was very satisfied. I could flip through its pages and reminisce, give it to my kids to play D&D with their friends (or children), and most importantly feel I had accomplished something I always wanted to do. What's more, if it was a translation of my home campaign, then it would evoke many wonderful memories of play.

But why publish if that's all I wanted? Why share it with the world and open yourself up to criticism and public scrutiny? Why invest time, energy, and money for no apparent return?

That's a very personal choice. You've told me (above) that you want a mixture of things out of it, which includes a thrill of entrepreneurship in addition to the desire to create something good. I will assert that these are two distinct motives---sometimes contradictory, or at least frequently at odds with each other. You are going to have to make compromises---but OK, "Hey! That's life". The pursuit of 'quality' will always want more time and money than the pursuit of profit will allow. Just think about movie directors fighting with the studio about budget overruns. I have no doubt that these two at-odds goals will cause you stress.

Your desire to have a "self-sufficient hobby" does perplex me at first-blush. Is it again tied to money? Do you mean a hobby (publishing your own content) that at least breaks even? That would explain your vehement bristling at paying for an editor and then giving the product away free. Or do you mean: one you can accomplish "by yourself", as in the desire to produce your own art (which I applaud)? If it's the former, its a bit odd. Folks spend money on their hobby---it's not a sin. Perhaps you have other pressures that force you to justify all the time and resources you are devoting to an inherently selfish pursuit. Showing a sufficient profit (more than $1.89!) is required for an adequate publicly-acceptable justification. Dunno. It could also be just to scratch that "successful business man" itch you state you have.

My point (assuming I have one of any worth) is alleviate some of the frustration "the system" is causing you (e.g. small profits, huge time-sink on social media, pandering your wares like a pesky salesman, being crush by the bigger fish, etc.), by at the very least understanding what you are trying to accomplish, and making some smart decisions to prioritize what matters to you most.

Here's the rub---what I've found to be true in my personal, professional, and academic life. We live in a big world, with lots of people wanting and doing things very similiar (if not identical) to you. If you want to be "successful", you need to invest 100% of yourself---at a minimum. Whatever you are willing to give "freely and painlessly" will be insufficient to distinguish you from the pack or get you across the finish line. You will not succeed until, in frustration and pain, you have uttered your heart-felt "bootless cries" into the uncaring void. Really. Pound of flesh. Square peg, round hole. Progress is not made by reasonable men. etc.

Sound like a "hobby"?

Not for me. However, it could be a white-knuckled thrill ride. Appealing?...depends on your temperament. Professionally, I'm been asked many times why I "do it"---which after much rumination I've interpreted to mean "keep putting myself in harm's way" by taking on difficult jobs. Folks have looked at me and scratched their heads wondering why I don't go into upper management like many of my peers and choose instead to stay in the trenches. For me, it's the thrill of the hunt---testing yourself against the universe and what you are capable of accomplishing. It's akin to Captain Kirk wanting to be at the helm of the Enterprise and not take an Admiral's desk job. Know yourself---and know what makes you happy.
We all need money---but from our hobby? Really?

(Continued below...)
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
(...Continued from above)

Back to your allegory. Me in the coffee shop. You kindly buying me a drink.

What about the $0.05 PYWY?
Hey cool, I got 5-cents. It's a joke. I laugh because I don't need the other $4.95. It's not my day job.

More to the point, what about all the free downloads? Well, that goes back to the primal question of personal motives. If it's success of your business, then Free Samples is just a marketing strategy. Get them hooked. Build up a consumer base and then parley that into something profitable.

Here an example from scientific computing: MATLAB (Mathworks).
The original code for MATLAB can be traced back to the US government. A US federal agency paid to have the algorithms (coded in Algor 60) translated in FORTRAN---they add been published (freely!) by the Englishman responsible for making Alan Turing's vision for a computer a reality after WWII. Mathworks co-founder, Cleve Moler, was part of the committee that eventually released (for free!) that linear algebra software as LAPACK. Cleve wrote a (free) front-end for his Linear Algebra class' students that was the foundation for MATLAB. Chris Little, a student at Standford, translated Cleve's code to C and ported it to the new (open architecture) IBC-PC running Windows (3.1) in the early 90's---and added his Stanford professor's Control Systems (free) algorithms. They then started giving away free copies of MATLAB to students---but institutions and businesses had to pay full price. As student went into the business world, they bought MATLAB licenses to do their jobs. Mathworks is a billion dollar company now.

Give it away for free. Build a client base. Have a plan to monetize it somehow later. (another example: Google)

All that makes sense as a strategy if your goal is money.

What if your answer to the question of "Why Publish?" is different?---I will argue (below) that any and all distribution is inherently good.
Personally, I would count mass-distribution of my work a win, and that's another part of the reason the $1.89 would not be as soul-crushing as you depict. More on that in a bit.

What about having spend $0.03/word on an editor ($500-$1500 for 50,000 words?)
It's one of two things.

The first possible response: So what? I spent $500 to make something I love better (and learned something in the process---maybe I won't need so much editing the next time, if there is a next time. Could be my one and only vanity project.). There's a good chance I would spend that much on my hobby over several years anyway. Can I cut back on other things to make up for it? Otherwise, if it doesn't break my personal budget, again---"So what?"

The second possible response: There may be another way. When you hire a professional editor---someone who is trying to use their skills to earn a comfortable six-figure living---you are playing "The Man's" game. You are engaging in the serious, 1st-world, economy and you have to pay the going rate. Harking back to the (successful!) Open Source software revolution, I'll borrow from Eric Raymond's essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar".

Paying a pro editor is akin to the old-school, monolithic, software development model that was en vogue up until the 90's, "The Cathedral". What Open-Source discovered (with the spread of the internet) was that they now had access to thousands of programmers and a free distribution network. What evolved was "The Bazaar" development model. Here's a few of it's tenet's he codified:
1) Treat all your end-users as co-developers
2) All bugs are transparent, given enough set of eyes
3) Release early. Release often.


OK. Let's try to apply that model to D&D content creation.

1) If you stop thinking and treating other gamers as "consumers", you can get out of marketing mode. You no longer need them to pay you to succeed. Every free download is a potential co-developer---someone who may give you valuable feedback to make your product better. Just make sure you have a mechanism in place to receive that feedback.

2 & 3) These two speak to editing. Either don't pay for editing at all and let the community of users find your errors via feedback. Reward good feedback by incorporating the changes and putting a better product out frequently. Folks new to the community gain some small measure of respect by contributing too. (There's a reason open-source software is running the world's servers---over time it becomes bullet-proof.) Alternatively, you leverage the community by paying (at a much reduced rate) another hobbyist to review your work. They get some dough and editing credit. You put out something less likely to embarrass. Win-win.

NOTE: This is not at all like "community world-building", per-se. You are still in charge. It's still your baby. You just are giving something out freely and reaping some manner of "payback" that makes what you've done better for you, and better for folks who want to use the product: free editing, donated art, whatever. Maybe some lazy-but-appreciative folks might just press the "Donate" button instead. That's cool too---less out of pocket expense for you.

Your "product" that got lost in the deluge of DriveThruRPG publishing has now become a living, breathing, "Project". Which, if successful, takes on a life of its own though word-of-mouth. As project manager, you can scratch that entrepreneurial itch, and sink as much time as you have available into it while watching something grow---but no one can demand anything from you because you're just volunteering your time. You're in the "The Bazaar" now and have found a back-door out of "The Man's" game. Things are lower stakes---lower stress, low cost.

Remember, you are playing the long game---not worrying about the monthly rent. Basic needs are met via other means, and we've moved on to the Gift Economy.

What about the 1-page dungeon dude and his $600/month?
OK. If you are trying to turn your hobby into a full-time job. There's nothing wrong with that, but it comes with attachments. The guy is on the hook to keep cranking out a steady stream of product. That can be a joy at times and a hassle too. He is leaving "The Bazaar" and heading back to "The Cathedral". His choice, but he wouldn't be the first artist to discover that the business world sucks a lot of the joy out of the act of creation. (Think about Trampier, and his sad tale.)

Now, who gives a rat's ass about those $0.05/2-star review jokers?
Certainly, not me. I'd even have a cup of coffee out of the bargain---(which would be awesome, except I don't drink coffee).

...

I had intended to write some more about what would motivate me to publish my work, but I am out of time and energy. Also, this post clearly needs a professional editor. Maybe some other time. Let's just leave it at the fact that mass-distribution---free or otherwise (even at a loss)---is still desirable in my personal "Why publish?" endgame.
 
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Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
"My point (assuming I have one of any worth) is alleviate some of the frustration "the system" is causing you (e.g. small profits, huge time-sink on social media, pandering your wares like a pesky salesman, being crush by the bigger fish, etc.), by at the very least understanding what you are trying to accomplish, and making some smart decision to prioritize what matters to you most."

May be on to something...I may just go "underground' to be honest, after this KS. Stop the social media and advertising. Just focus on creating. Whoever finds it, finds it. Reminds me of my Orbs adventure....short adventures all related to one another. Part 1 will be released at some point, but only in one location. Part 2 will be released in only one location, Part 3..maybe Drivethru where people might wonder where Part 1 and Part 2 are...and they shall become adventurers themselves as they search for them...

"Your desire to have a "self-sufficient hobby" does perplex me at first blush. It is again tied to money? Do you mean a hobby (publishing your own content) that at least breaks even? (Hence your bristling at paying for an editor and then giving the product away free.) Or do you mean: one you can accomplish "by yourself", as in the desire to produce your own art (which I applaud)? If it the former, its a bit odd."

Alright Mr. Squeen.....let us dance.

Yes, I mean both. I do not find it odd at all. A fisherman buys the tools he/she needs to fish...they catch a fish. They not only get the joy of fishing, but they get something out of it (fish for dinner--saving money from buying food can buy extra gear, they can share the fish with family). The artist on the street doing a 5 minute sketch of you..they enjoy drawing, they also get a little money for their effort, customer gets a sketch...and now the artist can buy extra pencils, paper/paints or whatever to continue with their hobby that they enjoy. A farmer at the Farmer's Market...enjoys gardening and grows tomatoes..sells them at the market, he can now buy the tools/seeds/extra labor/whatever to continue enjoying his hobby of growing food. A adventure designer enjoys creating an adventure, sells his adventure, is able to use that money for an editor or art to continue making future adventure modules. I don't understand how it's odd? I find it odd that you are saying that the writer is the only one that has to pay for their hobby to make it better and should do it for free, when none of these other hobby examples feel that same disdain/pressure?

I'll correct the example for Squeen's world: A adventure designer enjoys creating an adventure, pays 500$ for an editor and $500 for art, gives it out for free, and then is forced to find a different hobby as they can't afford to do something they love, but they keep that shiny nickel that someone gave them, and try to make a necklace out of it, but can't afford the string and.......ooooohh!! another marvelous run-on sentence!

Second component...yes...I would love to learn how to draw so my hobby could be completely self-sufficient. I have learned the joys of map-making and layout--both continually learning...a third step of taking some classes to learn how to draw so that I could capture exactly what I'm imagining from my writing as a picture? That would be amazing! From Forgotten Shrine of the Savior art, you can tell it is a HUGE uphill battle. But it's my end-goal because I think it would be fun.

"The first possible response: So what? I spent $500 to make something I love better (and learned something in the process---maybe I won't need so much editing the next time, if there is a next time. Could be my one and only vanity project.). There's a good chance I would spend that much on my hobby over several years anyway. Can I cut back on other things to make up for it? Otherwise, if it doesn't break my personal budget, then again---"So what "

For my Patreon, I was busting out 20-40 page adventures EVERY month. Suddenly that 500$ is $6,000 a year. That doesn't count the art costs.....If you are doing 1 project, then ok, you can justify it as you did, but if you enjoy creating...that gets fucking expensive. It becomes completely undoable, at least for me in my current situation. Thus my goal to break even so I can continue to do what I enjoy doing.

Your #2--Only place I have seen this work is with the more popular bloggers, and the Game Theory Co-Op and maybe Footprints magazine (but its fucking slooooooow). In my 2+? years of doing this, these forums are the only place I have seen people have interest....serious interest in working together on a project. Not sure how the Game Theory Co-Op is going because I've been distracted by my Kickstarter, but hopefully its moving forward?

You are the third person who has offered to review something without being asked/begged in 2+ years. Before this forum, I compared it to a wet noodle hitting a cold stone wall...no reaction. You may get people saying they are interested in helping...but do they? Will they? Maybe I just have an expectation of a quicker turnaround.

How fast would this "Bazaar" work? I say it would stifle my momentum...it would become a 'wall' or hoop. I'd have to wait around for feedback and pray that the volunteers were actually working on it.....Dare I say, I don't think others could keep up with me and what I want to do? This is why I juggle several projects (Jon's, Prince's, and my own) because I don't like walls--I get enough of those at my real job. I want to continuously create....not wait around. While your "Bazaar" sounds intriguing, I think it may be more difficult than you think to even get it off the ground. The people who do offer feedback--reviewers...you get one shot. There is this barrier that people have to break through and most don't do it.....

Which leads the discussion to you....Mr. Squeen, Lord of No Coffee Drinking. I've had success in challenging people, ask Prince of Nothing about it...so I'm throwing the gauntlet in the sand in your general direction....Show me this glorious sunset!!....Open the gates and bring forth your PWYW masterpiece...I'm willing to help with it (but not the costs that you want to inflict upon yourself that's on you :)). Happy to help with layout or mapping and editing or ideas. Let's bring forth this monster and shower it upon all the 'co-developers' out there and bring this legendary Bazaar to life!
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
Not sure how the Game Theory Co-Op is going because I've been distracted by my Kickstarter, but hopefully its moving forward?
It's getting there. We're all hobbyists working on a hobby, which unfortunately adheres us to hobby-style deadlines and hobby-level production schedules, but it's coming along.
 

Slick

*eyeroll*
Yes, I mean both. I do not find it odd at all. A fisherman buys the tools he/she needs to fish...they catch a fish. They not only get the joy of fishing, but they get something out of it (fish for dinner--saving money from buying food can buy extra gear, they can share the fish with family). The artist on the street doing a 5 minute sketch of you..they enjoy drawing, they also get a little money for their effort, customer gets a sketch...and now the artist can buy extra pencils, paper/paints or whatever to continue with their hobby that they enjoy. A farmer at the Farmer's Market...enjoys gardening and grows tomatoes..sells them at the market, he can now buy the tools/seeds/extra labor/whatever to continue enjoying his hobby of growing food.
I think you're blurring the lines between a job and a hobby a bit, here. A hobbyist fisherman gets the benefit of keeping the fish and sharing it with their family, but do you not also get to keep the adventure you wrote and share it with your players? A farmer selling his wares is a professional, a gardener who maintains their own backyard plot and maybe gives away surplus to their friends and neighbors is a hobbyist.

The artists doing caricatures on the street are not practicing art as a hobby in that instance, but as a profession. They don't choose their subject matter, they have to draw what the customers want. As someone who does art mostly as a hobby but has done amateur contract work in the past, there's a huge difference in personal attachment and motivation between drawing for fun and drawing a commissioned piece. Sometimes the client/subject is cool, our interests align and I have fun doing it, but not always and regardless there's always the added stress over my head of meeting expectations/deadlines. The upside I guess is that deadlines encourage the artist (or author/whatever) to actually get something done and not procrastinate for eternity, but I'm not convinced there necessarily has to be a monetary reward dangling in front of that deadline. Most of my commissions were for friends whom I either charged nothing, or the low low price of a six-pack.


EDIT: Speaking of which, I was sick for a week, then out of town for a week and I completely fell out of the loop with any of that GTC stuff, and I'd rather not intrude on the actual development of it at this point, but if you guys have any illustrations you want done let me know and I'll see what I can do. I'll draw basically anything as long as it's not a big elaborate full page spread or anything like that.
 
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Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Maybe I am blurring it. I don't think its wrong to have a "professional hobby" that breaks even. I guess professional hobby is a thing: https://www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/side-project-business-advice.

Everyone I know around me has a side hustle--they are trying to make money, driving Lyft or whatever and make a side income. That isn't my plan. It can't be my plan because there isn't a lot of money writing RPG adventures. After doing 14 of them, I know this to be true. I do adventures because I enjoy creating them--sometimes more than playing. But I want to be able to at least break even and not go into a huge hole of debt when doing them....And my PWYW adventures experiment, that you guys ALL say RPG writer hobbyists should be doing, does NOT give me enough support to do the quality I want to do with my hobby (i.e. art, editor)....Kellerins came close, but I didn't use a editor. "Good Feelings" don't cover the costs for published adventure modules.

I don't mind spending money on RPG products that others create. It's their ideas that they are sharing and I'm purchasing their ideas as entertainment or even game use--hobbyist or not. But all of you are making it sound like its wrong for a RPG adventure writer hobbyist to ask for money for their work, and that they should be throwing it out there for free.....and yet....how many of you have actually spent all this money to make your adventure the best it can be and published it...following your own logic?

Fine, then I turn the tables.

Your hobby is to play RPG games.
You should be paying someone else to make your hobby better or easier.
You should be paying a RPG writer for your hobby.
 

gandalf_scion

*eyeroll*
That next fisherman I see who catches a fish, Ill be all like "Hey yo!! You should give me that fish for free!"
You could certainly try that, but what if some other (nearby) fisherman gave you a fish, or two, for free before you could ask? That's the plight of adventure writers, too many providers. A related story: the war gaming hobby does pay more than enough to break even. Most of the war game publishers are or were role players too. But every time I've suggested producing an RPG product, they say "no" without hesitation because the space is "too crowded," their words not mine.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
EDIT: Speaking of which, I was sick for a week, then out of town for a week and I completely fell out of the loop with any of that GTC stuff, and I'd rather not intrude on the actual development of it at this point, but if you guys have any illustrations you want done let me know and I'll see what I can do. I'll draw basically anything as long as it's not a big elaborate full page spread or anything like that.
@Slick, why don't you pop around to the GTC boards (http://gametheorycoop.proboards.com/), make an account and I'll grant you access to the work areas if you want to catch yourself up, inject yourself into some idea sessions, maybe offer up pieces for something specific or whatever. We've accomplished much, but the train is still half in the station, if you get my drift.
 

Grützi

Should be playing D&D instead
Man, great stuff in this thread ;)
@ Malrex:
The GTC is still going strong ... We all have our "Real Life"-stuff to do, but the project is moving forward.

I rather strongly feel the stuff Slick said about hoby projects and deadlines ... I have my ideas, I have my self proclaimed prjects ... and just don't seem to find the time to get shit done.
DP first contest gave me a good deadline and I managed to throw something together ... So (for me at least) some formof outside pressure greatly increases my productivity :p
 
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