The price of an adventure?

[Malrex]

Man, great stuff in this thread
@ Malrex:
The GTC is still going strong ... We all have our "Real Life"-stuff to do, but the project is moving forward.

I rather strongly feel the stuff Slick said about hoby projects and deadlines ... I have my ideas, I have my self proclaimed prjects ... and just don't seem to find the time to get shit done.
DP first contest gave me a good deadline and I managed to throw something together ... So (for me at least) some formof outside pressure greatly increases my productivity

I'm glad that GTC is going strong. I need to get some time to read over everything and get up to speed as I would still like to contribute to that in one form or another.

 

[Grützi]

No rush ... Do you KS thingy, get rich or die trying (If squeen likes it or not )
We'll be there brainstorming stuff and producing awesome content

 

[Malrex]

No rush ... Do you KS thingy, get rich or die trying (If squeen likes it or not )
We'll be there brainstorming stuff and producing awesome content

The plan is to break even..

But when I come to GTC...I'll expect fish....free fish.
Unless Squeen is ready for coffee and his adventure....

 

[squeen]

@Malrex My favorite parts of your post were of course

...Squeen's world: ...

and of course,

....Mr. Squeen, Lord of No Coffee Drinking...

You flatter me.

Kidding aside, let me try to unpack a few things in yet another pair of monster posts.

For my Patreon, I was busting out 20-40 page adventures EVERY month. Suddenly that 500$ is $6,000 a year. That doesn't count the art costs.....If you are doing 1 project, then ok, you can justify it as you did, but if you enjoy creating...that gets fucking expensive. It becomes completely undoable, at least for me in my current situation. Thus my goal to break even so I can continue to do what I enjoy doing.

Wow. That is insane! 14 published adventures! 20-40 page a month!?!

Score: Malrex 14 --- squeen 0

At Pixar (back in the late 1990's at least), the company was divided in to two independent entities: the Development team that build the general tools and the Production team that was working on the next movie. Development has a longer view and tends to worry more infrastructure issues (solid foundations for future growth). Production is a bit more frantic, and is willing to do whatever it takes to make the current deadline---including "vile hack-ery" (from the Development team's perspective). What you are describing sounds like Production. I would say you are in danger of prioritizing quantity over quality, but from what I've seen of your work the quality is well above average too. How do you do it? I'm thinking you are in fact much more caffeinated than me. Perhaps I there is something to this "coffee" of-which-you-speak.

Still, I think it is beneficial to mentally segregate the two jobs you are doing. When you are writing content, you are fulfilling the role of a primary creator---these are the "talent", e.g. writers and artists. You are making something where before there was nothing.

When you are cranking out content, organizing a kickstarter, drumming up business, etc. you are playing the role of "Producer" or "Publisher". This is a second-tier job. It relies on the Talent for content---and is often accused of exploiting them since frequently these are the money-watchers who make sure they get the lion's share of the profits. I think it's unfair to claim they "do nothing", since without them there would be far fewer products available for mass-consumption. Walt Disney (the man) comes to mind as a stand-out producer that was also a talented dreamer (apparently, his brother minded the money-side for him).

I think an editor sits somewhere in-between. It's needs the writer's input---and a publisher/producer often has veto power over content so can end up serving the same function as an editor---but I think it is also a "talent" sort of job as well (hence the pay-per-word). It's a craftsman that produces a "thing"---cleaned-up text.

When you are making such a large volume of content, I think you are enjoying being a Publisher. Sometimes, in your posts, you refer to yourself as only "the writer", as in "pay the writer". I think you are conflating the joy in the act of writing, with the joy you get from publishing. The writer in you just wants to write what he dreams. He doesn't necessarily need to see his work in a slick format. He doesn't need to have illustrations. He can benefit and improve through interaction with an editor---but often he just fights with one. He doesn't really incur any significant "costs" per se, other than time. You don't really need income to "break even" as a writer---but you probably wouldn't mind an audience to appreciate your work. "Free" distributions, or just the players at your table might suffice.

That would also be true if you could do your own illustrations. (As an aside, you don't need art classes to learn how to draw---in fact few artists take that path. Just start drawing man! Learn by trail-and-error. Copy the style you like. My only tip is to pay attention to lighting. A white ball in a white room with uniform lighting is actually invisible. Draw the shadows!) As a primary-product, an illustrator mainly wants to have folks appreciate their work and receive some recognition for their hard-earned skill.

It's actually the Publisher in you that is incurring all the costs. The desire to put something "out there" that is slick, professional and timely. The Publisher needs the Talent, and the Talent frequently costs money (if it's not also yourself). Also, I will argue that only a Publisher lives and breathes at the break-neck speeds that you describe. The talent, when all is going well, is in the "flow" of the creation process. It's a state of mind that causes time to disappear so that when you finally look up, you realize the day is already over, and you've forgotten to eat breakfast. The Writer/Artist in you always wants more time, only the Publisher lives for deadlines because nothing has "happened" until the product goes out the door.

When I (or Bryce) suggest that you might pay to have your work professionally edited, it's the Publisher in you that screams bloody-murder, because that is a totally broken and unsustainable business model. Money out and (unless you cleverly monetize your freebies via some other conduit) nothing coming back in. A total non-starter.

An artist (with some other income/patron) who produces far fewer works---maybe only one "Vanity Project" a year, can shrug off the cost because there are other non-monetary rewards at play.

Is there a Publishing "hobby"? I'm not sure. But consider this---you sound like you are growing tired of the level of quality you can achieve with your products using only stock art and no editing. What you are struggling with is moving from low-end to a prestige format. Sounds like you want to be Mercedes, not Subaru. I am not sure how to help you there---other than support your Kickstarter.

Just to clarify---because I think you are misunderstanding me a bit---I am not advocating that you, as a publisher, spend money only to give your product away free on any sort of repetitive basis. Slick already made this point. A hobbyist doesn't typically mass-produce.

(...continued next post)

 

[squeen]

(...continued from previous post)

That next fisherman I see who catches a fish, Ill be all like "Hey yo!! You should give me that fish for free!"

This made me laugh. I mean really---out-loud, from the gut. The mental image it conjured was great.

But it's totally wrong-headed. Here's why:

First and foremost, "The Bazaar" works in the digital age precisely because it is low-overhead, i.e. I'm not paying someone else to do the task for me---it's just my time, no physical resources (besides electricity) are consumed, and distribution is also essentially "free" via the internet. Also, there's no warranty, or buyer's regret since everything is stated to be "as is", "take it or leave it", and "use at your own risk". This paradigm meshes well in conjunction with a Gift Economy (non-essentials) and an empowered DIY user-base---just like computers and D&D hobbies (used to be?).

Secondly...demanding a present in a Gift Culture is bad etiquette. (Shame on you!)

Your hobby is to play RPG games.
You should be paying someone else to make your hobby better or easier.
You should be paying a RPG writer for your hobby.

Yes. No. Maybe.

Let me try to clear things up now, in terms of my opinion and "squeen's world".

I am not advocating you spend yourself broke and quit the hobby (why do I always end up in such a sad, broken-state in your allegories?). Nor am I chastizing you for charging money for a quality product. What I am trying to do is decouple (for the average hobbist) the constant need for money and product from the hobby. I think, as you say, too many people are trying for the "side hustle". As Byrce's reviews show, there are an excess of wanna-be Publishers and a drought of good content Producers. That's why I'm urging folks to "Be Artists!" and "Screw the dollar!", because this deluge of fast-food quality products pouring into our proverbial cart out the window of an aptly named DriveThruRPG store, has us all fat and overweight from consumption, but generally not satisfied.

Yeah, the Bazaar can be slow. Hand-crafted, artisan, or high-end stuff usually takes longer to produce. But I think the time may be ripe to consider slowing things down a bit and focus more on the content. When I read some of the things Melan, EOTB and Gus L. have written---lamenting a time, not so long ago, before 5e and the fever-pitched return of D&D to profitability, I think the pendulum probably has swung too far towards commerce. Honestly, I could potentially buy a product-a-week---but I can't possibly use them. And if they are just mediocre at-best, why would I want to?

I am taking a cue in part from Gus L., who has turned his back on what he saw happen to the OSR and now draws (for free) the maps in Ben L's Through Ultan's Door out of some sense of hobbyist camaraderie.

You are the third person who has offered to review something without being asked/begged in 2+ years. Before this forum, I compared it to a wet noodle hitting a cold stone wall...no reaction.

That's because I understand how the Gift Economy is suppose to work. I've been mucking around in them (of one form or another) for nearly 20 years now. The Eternal September speaks to some early internet culture norms.

..so I'm throwing the gauntlet in the sand in your general direction....Show me this glorious sunset!!....Open the gates and bring forth your PWYW masterpiece...I'm willing to help with it...

Ho HO! I saw what you did there---with your inversion of my inspirational sunrise, by turning it into a sunset. Clever that. You sir, are clearly a master debater, and I will need to keep an eye on you.

While I do appreciate your offer for help, I know my limits. Family and professional-job come first. I am unlikely to have the spare cycles to tackle my personal Magnum Opus until after 2023---when the project I am currently engaged with "launches". Even then, I am such a perfectionist it will probably take me many more years beyond that to publish.

However, I have probably also reached that "Put-up or shut-up" limit in many folk's minds due to my prolific on-line big-mouth-ery. I am also feeling an itch to get-something-out-there in order to test my chops as a creator. I'd love to receive some feedback on the quality of what I can produce. I know it will most likely be tepid or negative---and it's the latter in particular I am hoping for (assuming it's constructive) because it will help me improve both as a DM (for my players) and as a wannabe-writer. Because I know it will be a freshman attempt---I will definitely put it out there gratis.

What would be ideal time-wise is if I could "tear out" something I've already play-tested and put it out there into the world to garner a response. Both as my contribution to the hobby in part---but also as a form of a homework-assignment to be (hopefully) publicly graded for my own education. Unfortunately, that's proving to be problematic. Let me explain:

In my home campaign, due to a general lack of free-time, I am usually struggling to keep up with the player's wanderings. I do make myself prep and write everything down formally with half-a-mind to publish---but also as a living document in case something should later resurface. To date, I have (in a LaTeX document) nearly 250 pages of Brycian-terse text---typed in a compact 8-pt, two-column format with hand-drawn digitized maps, etc. It encompasses about 650 keyed locations in an intentionally mid-sized sandbox with little-to-no backstory beyond what's essential for a particular locale. Some of the artwork is mine, but a lot of it is proprietary placeholders fished from cyberspace. In my mind it's less than half done and wholly unsuitable for publication---even in part.

Why is that? Because of what I was advocating to y'all earlier. If you are focusing on your art (with a critical eye) you have to ask yourself "What is new or different about this?". In my case, the content is somewhat vanilla. For my players, it's fine. They have no previous D&D experience, and the old troupes or occasional gonzo elements are all new and surprising to them. In the vast sea of RPG publishing today, I don't think it would make much of a splash. Not a "masterpiece" by any means. Even after 5 years of DMing, I'm still just a yeoman, trying to learn the craft.

What I thought (in 2014) I might be able to pull off that was fresh is a feat of scale. I have already "let the cat out of the bag" here in the blog with some of the ideas/techniques that I felt had been lacking---nested maps that zoom in to orient the DM. An illusion of infinite depth augmented by hints to vague off-camera elements. Enough functional-but-mundane elements so that the extraordinary ones evoke surprise and wonder. I also felt that the stand-alone dungeons/adventures had been "done-to-death", and that it would be really neat to be able to hand a starting DM a sandbox that had campaign-level scope, but dungeon-encounter-level detail. Strange, far-reaching, and subtle inter-connections that you can't really achieve with a one-off lair or dungeon, and yet a level-of-detail that drilled down so that the closer the players looked, the more they saw. All that and organized well-enough to be Usable At The Table!!!!!

("We interrupt this post now to salute the stick figure of our patron Byrce in the tenfootpole.org banner. Thank you for your patience.")

Achieving such an ambitious goal has proven to be elusive at best. I'm reminded of the derision Dwimmermount received...the whole "Giant Rats, 3000 cp" thing. Is that the fate of all attempts to translate a home-campaign into print? I also note Gygax's own failure to ever bring Castle Greyhawk into print. My own "Great Work" is probably doomed-by-design. I fear I've probably already said too much---hype lends itself quickly to disappointment.

What's more, in the 5+ years I've been puttering along, more than a few other sandboxes have started to surface. Notably the Swordfish Islands stuff, and even Malrex's own City of Vermillion looks to be doing what I thought hadn't previously been done. Ironically, the more I see of other work, the more my own creative juices seems to dry up. (Ben L's Wishery zine is a stand-out exception---it inspires!)

Where does that leave me? Well, as my forum handle says, "Should probably be playing D&D instead". I will keep at it---filling in the landscape of the home campaign. Some day, after a ton of editing and rework, it may see the light of day. Who knows? Whatever. At least I'll have a dictionary-sized rough draft I can hand to my kids.

In the mean time, I may try a smaller project. I am thinking either a fanzine entry or...I have half a notion to offer to my assistance to EOTB fleshing out on that free-resource city+mega-dungeon thingy he has mentioned as an aide for new OSRIC DMs. It's probably closest in direction to the course I've charted for myself. (...and I do seem to have a soft-spot for open-sourced content.)

Sorry Malrex. I just can't (or won't) pick up that mixed-metaphor "gauntlet in-the-sand" you threw (Holy Grail-esque?) in my gen-er-al di-rection....but my offer to help with Vermillion still stands (no strings attached). After all, as Paul said, "in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.”

Peace.

(P.S. It's "Let's dance" you idiot! Not, "Let us dance"... That's just plain stupid!)

 

[Malrex]

Squeen...you write long posts. This comes from a man who receives constant beatings for writing long emails to people. I am hooking some of your comments out like a free fisherman to discuss.

"When you are cranking out content, organizing a kickstarter, drumming up business, etc. you are playing the role of "Producer" or "Publisher"."

I like the cranking out content (if it's good) and organizing the kickstarter was kinda fun as I learned how to do it. The 'drumming up business' part I fucking hate it.

"When you are making such a large volume of content, I think you are enjoying being a Publisher. Sometimes, in your posts, you refer to yourself as only "the writer", as in "pay the writer". I think you are conflating the joy in the act of writing, with the joy you get from publishing. The writer in you just wants to write what he dreams. He doesn't necessarily need to see his work in a slick format. He doesn't need to have illustrations. He can benefit and improve through interaction with an editor---but often he just fights with one."

Actually, after discussing it, I think my hobby and what I enjoy is layout. I'm still learning how to do it, but I enjoy it. To do layout, I need writing AND art. The art plays a role in helping with the inspiration which helps with the writing. I do need to see my work in slick format because my usual laid back self goes into perfectionist mode (for adventure writing and when I build landscape ponds for fun, but usually I don't give a shit about details and things being perfect). I want to create something that I would enjoy picking up myself...so I absolutely do need illustrations because I love art to go along with my adventure modules that I read...it's nostalgic for me. Despite my bitching about paying for editors, I love working with a editor. I love the interaction--its basically feedback, which is another reason why I like reviews. I try not to fight with an editor or reviewer because they are providing constructive criticism (usually) which is what I want out of them.

"Also, I will argue that only a Publisher lives and breathes at the break-neck speeds that you describe. The talent, when all is going well, is in the "flow" of the creation process. It's a state of mind that causes time to disappear so that when you finally look up, you realize the day is already over, and you've forgotten to eat breakfast. The Writer/Artist in you always wants more time, only the Publisher lives for deadlines because nothing has "happened" until the product goes out the door."

The break-neck speeds....I believe its because I want to get to the layout stage. But my weird, rare perfectionism kicks in and the writing has to be good. If I'm asking for money, I need to know I did the best I could with the writing--or at least the ideas. I'm not the best writer in the world, but like you, if I tackle a project, say the legendary goblin cave--I have to make it different or never seen before....so that I feel the consumer is getting their money's worth. But I also spend long weekends ( I work 4 10's, so get 3 day weekends) creating and losing track of time...hours do go by. I don't actually like deadlines that much--its one of the reasons why I quit my Patreon...which I plan to write about on my blog someday...for free.

"Is there a Publishing "hobby"? I'm not sure. But consider this---you sound like you are growing tired of the level of quality you can achieve with your products using only stock art and no editing. What you are struggling with is moving from low-end to a prestige format. Sounds like you want to be Mercedes, not Subaru. I am not sure how to help you there---other than support your Kickstarter."

I'm not sure either to be honest. Layout stage is in-between creating and publishing stage? This is a good therapy session, lol...I'm trying to figure this all out. I become a perfectionist and demand the best quality products I can muster and I want to continually learn to improve--I love feedback because that's how I learn. Another reason to quit Patreon--the stock art, and there are a few adventures I'm not 100% happy with because of the deadlines that were set with Patreon.

"I would say you are in danger of prioritizing quantity over quality, but from what I've seen of your work the quality is well above average too. How do you do it?"

I started coming to that realization and was a reason I quit my Patreon. There was an adventure that I wrote for my Patreon that I got around to play-testing, and I wasn't 100% happy with it....that bothered me, because it's up for sale. So that's when I decided to slow down a bit.

"Secondly...demanding a present in a Gift Culture is bad etiquette. (Shame on you!)"

This is what I felt you were doing. Demanding an editor for someone giving out their work for free. That's why we are dancing....

"I also felt that the stand-alone dungeons/adventures had "been done to death", and that it would be really neat to be able to hand a starting DM a sandbox that had campaign-level scope, but dungeon-encounter-level detail. Strange, far-reaching, and subtle inter-connections that you can't really achieve with a one-off lair or dungeon, and yet a level-of-detail that drilled down so that the more the players looked, the more they saw. All that and organized well-enough to be Usable At The Table!!!!!"

I love this. This is what I'm all about or striving for. I like to try an add a component that is not part of the main plotline or whatever and see if I can grab people's attention to explore. They think it's a dead end because they are used to being ran through the plot line and to not go off track, but the dead-end keeps going and going....

"What I am trying to do is decouple (for the average hobbist) the constant need for money and product from the hobby. I think, as you say, too many people are trying for the "side hustle". As Byrce's reviews show, there are an excess of wanna-be Publishers and a drought of good content Producers. That's why I'm urging folks to "Be Artists!" and "Screw the dollar!", because this deluge of fast-food quality products pouring into our proverbial cart out the window of an aptly named DriveThruRPG store, has us all fat and overweight from consumption, but generally not satisfied."

That's all you had to say.....
There is a few types:
1. Putting adventures together can be really tough. Some people may of put their very best effort into creating something but it gets reamed or it wasn't up to snuff. But they made an honest attempt and maybe just want to put up 1-2 things...besides, they would rather be playing. And if they make a few bucks, maybe they would try again.

2. You do get some people that put out a bunch of shit. Maybe they put their best effort into it, but as you are reading it you see a bunch of holes or things they could of done better. Some of these people are just looking for a quick buck. But this method isn't really working anymore because it seems most people wait for a reviewer...and particular reviewers who aren't afraid to ream bullshit. I think these people are starting to get phased out.

3. You got the people who can do no wrong...they got followers that eat up whatever they produce, good or bad.

4. Then you got people who enjoy the whole process. This level could be made up of people from #1 who keep learning and trying to improve. They pour in their creativity and try to create quality products. These are the people that I'm saying should be paid. This material may not be exactly what you like---but you can see and appreciate/respect the effort that was put into it and may pick up a few ideas off it. I'm looking at Ultan's Door, Melan's stuff and others.

The thing is....it's hard to determine who is who as you want to give the benefit of the doubt. I understand what you are saying, but I don't know if I fully agree with it....because even though people may of put out shit, it still takes effort, and who is to say what their best effort is? There is no guideline on what cost you put up your work.

"In the mean time, I may try a smaller project. I am thinking either a fanzine entry or...I have half a notion to offer to my assistance to EOTB fleshing out on that free-resource city+mega-dungeon thingy he has mentioned as a resource for new OSRIC DMs. It's probably closest in direction to the course I've charted for myself. (...and I do seem to have a soft-spot for open-sourced content.)"

Not to try and steal you away from EOTB...but I'm still looking for submissions for Footprints #25..a FREE magazine.

"Sorry Malrex."
Yeah....that's right!

"Sorry Malrex. I just can't (or won't) pick up that mixed-metaphor "gauntlet in-the-sand" you threw (Holy Grail-esque?) in my general direction....but my offer to help with Vermillion still stands (no strings attached). After all, as Paul said, "in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.”

I may take you up on it if it funds.....when...WHEN it funds. Power of positive thought!

 

[squeen]

I like everything you are saying. I feel like we had a break-through in our group therapy session when you mentioned your joy of layout. That I totally get. Sometimes I have to stop myself from endlessly fiddling---it's just so darn pretty when it "clicks".

I thought about Footprints when you mentioned it too. Let me ruminate on that one. What are the publication rules? When's the deadline?

However, the one note of discord in this on-line group-hug is this:

"HOW CAN A GUY WHO CLAIMS TO LOVE LAYOUT NOT PUT THE
[ QUOTE="squeen" ]
[ \QUOTE ]
TAGS AROUND THE PORTIONS OF MY POSTS YOU QUOTE IN-LINE?!?"

Explain that, Lord of So-Called-Coffee. ( .. .or is that so-called Lord of Coffee? I keep getting that mixed-up.)

See ... I said I'd be keeping my eye on you.

 

[Malrex]

I like everything you are saying. I feel like we had a break-through in our group therapy session when you mentioned your joy of layout. That I totally get. Sometimes I have to stop myself from endlessly fiddling---it's just so darn pretty when it "clicks".

I thought about Footprints when you mentioned it too. Let me ruminate on that one. What are the publication rules? When's the deadline?

However, the one note of discord in this on-line group-hug is this:

"HOW CAN A GUY WHO CLAIMS TO LOVE LAYOUT NOT PUT THE
[ QUOTE="squeen" ]
[ \QUOTE ]
TAGS AROUND THE PORTIONS OF MY POSTS YOU QUOTE IN-LINE?!?"

Explain that, Lord of So-Called-Coffee. ( .. .or is that so-called Lord of Coffee? I keep getting that mixed-up.)

See ... I said I'd be keeping my eye on you.

Because I'm not a perfectionist with forum posts.....hah!

Footprints--just looking for submissions for articles or new spells, monsters, magic items, ecology of some beast...or even dungeons, although we got 1-2 already. Really felt like Footprints deserved a #25 as its a good number.

 

[squeen]

I'd probably prefer to polish up a dungeon. Maybe not a good fit this time around if that base is already covered.

 

[The1True]

But when I come to GTC...I'll expect fish....free fish.
Unless Squeen is ready for coffee and his adventure....

Curious to see what you think of what we've done to your Groundwater Deity lol...

 

[The1True]

Squeen...you write long posts.

Seriously dude. Trying to follow these threads is agony sometimes...

 

[squeen]

Seriously dude. Trying to follow these threads is agony sometimes...

Noted. Think I've gotten it out of my system. Brevity is king.

 

[Malrex]

Noted. Think I've gotten it out of my system. Brevity is king.

I like em!! haha. I love long emails and posts (we are a rare breed).

Now I'm curious about the Groundwater Deity!!

 

[Guy Fullerton]

I agree with EOTB's points, as well as this bit from squeen:

What it comes back to for me is this --- What is your goal?

Right. It doesn't make sense to think about price until you realize all the reasons why you are sharing.

Please don't overlook the goal of facilitating/inspiring play. Maybe that could go without saying, but by not saying it, the message comes across as far more selfish than you might realize. Got nothing against people getting something out of publishing (would be a big hypocrite if I did), but it's easy to spot the sucking leeches. If you aren't aiming toward play when you share, you might be a leech without knowing it.

Other important, and less obvious goals (sorry if these were already mentioned, since I didn't read every post):
- For the project to somehow stand out: If that's not a goal, it doesn't matter what the price you pick, because your thing will get drowned by the hundreds of other things that don't stand out. Could be via content, presentation/format, delivery method, legal framework, or myriad other ways.
- Bang the drum! Do a thing to help keep a system visible & vital. (This matters, and is actually different from the idea of giving back to the community.)
- Show (or experiment with) how something can be done better, or in a new way.
... not that you need to have any of these as goals. Just wanted to show some goals that are more neutral on the altruistic <-> selfish axis.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

If you aren't aiming toward play when you share, you might be a leech without knowing it.

This resonates with me. I'm curious though - what would you define as a "leech" in this context? Someone who puts out shovelware to cash in at the expense of the rest of the market?

Big fan of your work, BTW.

 

[Guy Fullerton]

That's kind of you to say! If you end up using anything, I'd love to hear about what did or didn't work well.

On the leech thing: It's a matter of degree, and it's also subjective. Maybe the shovelware counts, but not if the shoveler is selling stuff their group actually played.

A well-known example might be Alphonso Warden (RIP), author of a dozen or so OSRIC modules, who revealed that he didn't actually play (or at least played very infrequently), and was writing modules as a springboard into writing fiction. Some would argue his modules are junk, as a direct consequence of his motivation.

Another example might be the repeated re-publishing of the same old modules by Frog God Games or Troll Lord Games. Sometimes with exclusive new content, like they want us to re-buy Rappan Athuk for the fourth time, just to get some new levels written by people that had nothing to do with the original. (That's not a totally fair indictment, because IIRC some of the kickstarters had ways of getting just the new stuff.) It's clear they're trying to hook people with the Rappan Athuk brand or the Gaxmoor brand or the Tegel Manor brand, instead of coming out with quality new standalone stuff. And I understand why they need to do that, given the size of their companies and the fact that hardcovers make much more financial sense for them to sell. I don't hold it against them — I consider Matt Finch a friend, and ditto for Luke Gygax — but I roll my eyes at some of the kickstarters. I mean, if Bill Webb has the design chops to be trusted with additions/revisions to Tegel Manor, but is unwilling to try putting out something new, it's clear their priorities are slanted more toward padding with pre-existing content that I already own, and less toward giving me new play value for the money.

A third example: And I'm going from memory, so I am probably misremembering some details. IIRC, there was a point where Kalex the Omen (of Mischief Inc.) was trying really hard to please "the market," and said as much on DF and K&KA, which seemed odd. I for one was thinking, "just make some stuff for your home game and put it out there with a price on it. If it sells, great; if not, at least you gave something you thought was useful." The last thing I wanted him to do was concentrate on a play style that wasn't his usual style, because it's harder to make something useful that doesn't match how you would use it. Worrying too much about what an "audience" wants (and even trying to "build an audience") is a sign to me that I'm being treated as the product.

Edit #2: I had originally referred to Malrex in the above paragraph, but that was totally wrong. I found what I had been thinking of, and it was Kalex the Omen, the forum handle for one of the guys from Mischief Inc. (Maybe I conflated the names in my memory because of the -ex at the end? No idea.) I'm very sorry for screwing that up, Malrex!

 

[squeen]

Wow. That's some honest straight talk.
Nice to have you posting here.

 

[Guy Fullerton]

I had an epiphany this morning and remembered who/what I was thinking of for that third example. It was *not* Malrex, sorry!

 

[Malrex]

*Shakes fist at Guy* Bring it on! You son of a...oh! I mean...no problem! It's all good!

I remember Kalex...he seemed to have some passion, but then walked away?

I've had some revelations about this topic or basically just publishing in general after running my first (failed) Kickstarter. Basically drenched myself in social media, putting up ads, trying to get momentum going...and hated it the whole time. It reminded me of what Oswald said on a review that Bryce did recently:

"The hard part and why I couldn’t do it is that all the “osr thought leaders” who show up in enny awards have to spend 20-30 hours a week on osr discords, running a blog, youtube vids, living on the internet, networking in different communities, managing kickstarters etc. in addition to the 20-30 a week it takes to write a decent adventure. At that point, you’re selling yourself to people rather than just being a private individual with a hobby." --Oswald

I actually enjoyed running the KS (minus the social media advertising bullshit) as I had some good discussions with backers on private messages and comments. It was very humbling, I felt supported, and felt like a micro-community. One of the rare times that even though the KS failed, I still felt victorious. I'll def. do more KS in the future for art (but no more other bells and whistles).

But I think there is a lot of truth to what Oswald said....I'd rather join the "Underground" and just put stuff out quietly so I have more time to create. If people find it and think its beneficial--then cool! Some of the other Merchants are starting to play with ideas for promotion and I'll support them by happily handing over the reigns, but I'm aiming to join the "Underground" movement and just do my thing.

"Please don't overlook the goal of facilitating/inspiring play." --Guy

Preach it brother.

 

[Avi]

New guy here - so Hello ;-)

A fascinating read, thank you guys!

With reference to "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", my poison of choice is BFRPG.
I think its a good example of a community getting together to produce "stuff".

Avi