Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
See, I don't think his response displays a nature that is forgiving, lenient, willing to compromise etc. etc. In other words, I think he is a hypocrite.
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The state of Post-OSR content
- Thread starter Yora
- Start date
TerribleSorcery
Should be playing D&D instead
Ah yes it makes sense in that way. Nobody is as hardline towards prep as Bryce!
Alright boys. We've all had our two cents. Let's keep the speculation on Stuart's motivation to ourselves for now and focus on something else; His Thoughtless and Haphazard Categorization of the Godnards!...Gognards! Gorknards?*
Ye Edictes And Attributes Of Ye Evil Gorknards (Prince/Melan/Bryce/Noisims(? I guess you are in here now, report to Skull Mountain for an evil uniform) And Other Dastardly Members of the Wicked Elf-Game Reviewing Cabal of Evil):
The First Edict: Adventures Are Meant To Be Played: Meaning both in terms of utility as well as in content, the primary goal of an adventure is to be used. An adventure may have a secondary purpose (entertainment, toilet reading material, coffee table book, inspiration), but if it cannot be effectively used it is a failure.
Collorary to the First Edict: Good adventures are made not just by the brilliance and knowledge of Le author but also refined by the laborious act of playtesting. Good Material is just as often grown over decades of play as it is assembled wholecloth!
The Second Edict; Adventure design is measured via adherence to a set of fixed principles but allows for almost infinite variation within those sets of fixed principles. Adventures are not generally judged on novelty value but on the degree to which they resemble a platonic ideal, embodied by a series of universal 'classics' (B2, the G series, S3).
There is a concordance that sprawling nonlinear maps, faction play, resource management, tricks & traps, versimilitude, organized resistance for intelligent opponents, terse writing style, design that challenges the player's ability and the more nebulous quantity of 'The Unknown' are all desirable elements that should be present most of the time.
The Brycean School of Thought: Holds that Tomb of Horrors Ruined the Hobby, Utility is a paramount characteristic, Prep must be CUT DOWN, nothing is worse then Gimping Player Ability, Humanoids are Best Replaced with Humans and places emphasis on Evocative Novelty! Biased in favor of Faery-tales/Myth. Early Artpunk adopter. Embodies OSR Positivism (believes that the OSR now makes better material then TSR ever did).
The Melanian School of Thought: Emphasizes the synthesis between realism and magic (Gygaxian Naturalism?!?), Favors raw power and conceptual strength over presentation and utility, Prep agnostic, Minimalism Antagonistic, Biased in favor of S&S. Artpunk agnostic. OSR Agnostic (stance on OSR now vs TSR then unknown).
The Princean School of Thought: Is inconsistent and haphazardly cobbled together but manages to retain an admirable coherence with the two above-mentioned schools nonetheless. Recent: Heavy Focus on Precedent and Classics. Artpunk antagonistic. Biased in favor of Appendix N. Tomb of Horrors did nothing wrong! OSR negativism (Believes that adventure/game design has declined since the days of TSR, exception Kevin Crawford).
The Noisms School of Thought: ==Locked== Buy the DLC!
The Third Edict: Decent adventure writing is not a matter of genius or individual ability but comes from knowledge of existing material, practice and adherence to the principles outlined above i.e. OSR as craft, not as expressionism.
The Fourth Edict: Long form over short play. Hah! I paid attention in school and Noisms is this! Probably? a shared preference?
Political Leani- Hahaha just kidding
Together We Will Bury You
* Because we have the power of both Gork AAAAAND Mork!
Ye Edictes And Attributes Of Ye Evil Gorknards (Prince/Melan/Bryce/Noisims(? I guess you are in here now, report to Skull Mountain for an evil uniform) And Other Dastardly Members of the Wicked Elf-Game Reviewing Cabal of Evil):
The First Edict: Adventures Are Meant To Be Played: Meaning both in terms of utility as well as in content, the primary goal of an adventure is to be used. An adventure may have a secondary purpose (entertainment, toilet reading material, coffee table book, inspiration), but if it cannot be effectively used it is a failure.
Collorary to the First Edict: Good adventures are made not just by the brilliance and knowledge of Le author but also refined by the laborious act of playtesting. Good Material is just as often grown over decades of play as it is assembled wholecloth!
The Second Edict; Adventure design is measured via adherence to a set of fixed principles but allows for almost infinite variation within those sets of fixed principles. Adventures are not generally judged on novelty value but on the degree to which they resemble a platonic ideal, embodied by a series of universal 'classics' (B2, the G series, S3).
There is a concordance that sprawling nonlinear maps, faction play, resource management, tricks & traps, versimilitude, organized resistance for intelligent opponents, terse writing style, design that challenges the player's ability and the more nebulous quantity of 'The Unknown' are all desirable elements that should be present most of the time.
The Brycean School of Thought: Holds that Tomb of Horrors Ruined the Hobby, Utility is a paramount characteristic, Prep must be CUT DOWN, nothing is worse then Gimping Player Ability, Humanoids are Best Replaced with Humans and places emphasis on Evocative Novelty! Biased in favor of Faery-tales/Myth. Early Artpunk adopter. Embodies OSR Positivism (believes that the OSR now makes better material then TSR ever did).
The Melanian School of Thought: Emphasizes the synthesis between realism and magic (Gygaxian Naturalism?!?), Favors raw power and conceptual strength over presentation and utility, Prep agnostic, Minimalism Antagonistic, Biased in favor of S&S. Artpunk agnostic. OSR Agnostic (stance on OSR now vs TSR then unknown).
The Princean School of Thought: Is inconsistent and haphazardly cobbled together but manages to retain an admirable coherence with the two above-mentioned schools nonetheless. Recent: Heavy Focus on Precedent and Classics. Artpunk antagonistic. Biased in favor of Appendix N. Tomb of Horrors did nothing wrong! OSR negativism (Believes that adventure/game design has declined since the days of TSR, exception Kevin Crawford).
The Noisms School of Thought: ==Locked== Buy the DLC!
The Third Edict: Decent adventure writing is not a matter of genius or individual ability but comes from knowledge of existing material, practice and adherence to the principles outlined above i.e. OSR as craft, not as expressionism.
The Fourth Edict: Long form over short play. Hah! I paid attention in school and Noisms is this! Probably? a shared preference?
Political Leani- Hahaha just kidding
Together We Will Bury You
* Because we have the power of both Gork AAAAAND Mork!
Melan
*eyeroll*
It might be fair to say I actually subscribe to Bledsawian Surrealism: strangeness through a few steps of free association from a largely realistic baseline. The City State of the Invincible Overlord is "real"... yet unreal. It obviously has internal consistency, but a strange one. Here is what I wrote on the subject a long, long time ago in a mission statement posted on my old site:
My politics, obviously, do not meet with the approval of the catgirl squad. This also describes about 97% of the civilised world and a significantly higher percentage of the uncivilised one. Imagine being found guilty of an unforgiveable sin invented in some murky, disreputable university department all of six years ago, and rolled out for general consumption some time around last year. It is hilarious, at least until the catgirl commissars produce guns and shoot you in the back of the head for disrespecting their laughable made-up bullshit. No, actually, it is still hilarious after that.
[edit]No, actually, let me add something to be entirely clear. Old-school gaming, as it was, was politically agnostic until it was taken over by Zak's groupies. Whatever disagreements existed were about game-related matters. People who were otherwise open and sometimes fairly vocal about their beliefs could sit down and discuss the minutiae of creating dungeons, interpreting AD&D the "right" way, or disputing the contributions of Dave Arneson (secret genius or weirdo reject?). Funny how that could exist before the fucking gentrifiers got here.
My yardstick, also, is more early JG than early TSR, although I appreciate that as well.
My politics, obviously, do not meet with the approval of the catgirl squad. This also describes about 97% of the civilised world and a significantly higher percentage of the uncivilised one. Imagine being found guilty of an unforgiveable sin invented in some murky, disreputable university department all of six years ago, and rolled out for general consumption some time around last year. It is hilarious, at least until the catgirl commissars produce guns and shoot you in the back of the head for disrespecting their laughable made-up bullshit. No, actually, it is still hilarious after that.
[edit]No, actually, let me add something to be entirely clear. Old-school gaming, as it was, was politically agnostic until it was taken over by Zak's groupies. Whatever disagreements existed were about game-related matters. People who were otherwise open and sometimes fairly vocal about their beliefs could sit down and discuss the minutiae of creating dungeons, interpreting AD&D the "right" way, or disputing the contributions of Dave Arneson (secret genius or weirdo reject?). Funny how that could exist before the fucking gentrifiers got here.
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The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
<nods> It used to be that politics and religion were considered to be taboo. To bring them up in a conversation was a major faux pas. That seems to have been thrown in the dumpster, but maybe it's a good idea to be reevaluated.
Granted, a lot of these issues seem to have been exacerbated by the internet. Before, conversations were two way, ephemeral. Someone might say something offensive but it could be forgotten or explained away. Now everything is a permanent record. People lay down their parts of the conversation and wait hours or days for a reply. And then you have blogging, Live Journalling (remember that?), and Facebook. Before you never knew that Aunt Linda had these bizarre beliefs, but now you see posts and shares from her every day about her favorite conspiracy theory that the Dutch were created by Satan on the island of Patmos in 1395 as a way to oppose God. Now it's in your face.
People also seem to have become more more rigid and fundamentalist about their political beliefs. I survived two obnoxious witch hunts in the 80's, against heavy metal music and Dungeons and Dragons. Why I would want to get back in to that mindset is baffling to me.
<waves at Prince....hopefully this isn't too political, I hope!>
This is actually true and you should not believe the LIES OF THE FAKE NEWS MEDIA claiming otherwise. (It's also why I don't use my social media anymore). Everyone is fucking alienated.
Jesus, I guess everybody really wants to get it out of their system. Okay. Temporary Cessation. Let's see how we do. As soon as people start rearing their heads and I hear cries of JE ACCUSE I am putting the hammer down. There is a place for that type of fighting, and that place is in Patrick Stuart's comments section. So if you feel the need to fight, you grab whatever foul, ungodly, ugly, blasphemous invective you can dredge up from Hitler's Anus and you head on over to Patrick Stuart's Comment Section and you just start blasting. Capiche?
Just remember that you all get along reasonably well most of the time alright?
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
@Melan: priceless (although people have always been political animals...)
@The Heretic : You are right, used to be taboo...in polite company. At the local pub, surrounded by with your like-thinking mates, you could safely bitch about anything and everything. The internet attached a megaphone to those muttered (and often idiotic) conversations.
@PrinceofNothing : You have better put a time limit on that...not long-term viable. Yous are asking for trouble. Bryce really did put the wolf in charge of the hen-house. To your credit, you've been very restrained!
@The Heretic : You are right, used to be taboo...in polite company. At the local pub, surrounded by with your like-thinking mates, you could safely bitch about anything and everything. The internet attached a megaphone to those muttered (and often idiotic) conversations.
@PrinceofNothing : You have better put a time limit on that...not long-term viable. Yous are asking for trouble. Bryce really did put the wolf in charge of the hen-house. To your credit, you've been very restrained!
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Lol. This is what the Nation of Islam (a radical black Nationalist group) thinks about white people. Louis Farrakhan, ever hear of him?
Look everybody, it's field trip time!
Dammit, I knew I forgot to say something! I was going to say "politics and religion is very personal, so there was a good reason why it was off limits. Just look at the argument we're having over "candy classes" and then take it to eleven!*"
* From Spinal Tap, not sure if you've seen it.
This is it. Its not clear whether the internet counts as private or public I guess.
Uh this fucking topic, until the end of the week. I feel stupid now because I caught Beoric very properly editing some posts on Patrick's rather special approach to moral consistency and I want to incentivize such co-operation with some method that is not shouting abuse at someone until they do as I say but I am still learning, so for what its worth, @Beoric, if you want to retroactively edit those posts back and say whatever the hell you want, go right the fuck ahead. This one is my fault.
Now if you will excuse me, I am going to find a perch with a view, a supply of popcorn and a 5+ cover save.
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This increased fanaticism is a response to the worsening conditions probably, but I think there was probably more cultural coherency back then too. People had different outlooks but they watched the same TV, their language was the same etc. etc. etc. Now everything is islands, splinters, each their own truth, each their own definition of words, and more data and articles then anyone can analyse to make sense out of it. Couple it with an all time low of repeatability in the sciences, a shifting cultural morass and a growing distrust of authority and you get, well, this.
Its called the Semantic Apocalypse and it is probably real.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I call that "erosion of wealth in the West". Not much talk of "first, second and third world" these days.
Couple that with the fact that it took from the dawn of human history to the year of my birth for the human population to reach 3 billion. That staggeringly huge number has more than doubled....IN MY LIFETIME! Say hello Malthus. Wave to all the nice people.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
<utterly shocked SHOCKED I tell you>
But...but...the political ban was a good thing. Oh My GAWD the APOCRALYPSE is upon US.
All this weird stupid stuff predated the internet. That whole stupid Isle of Patmos thing existed even before Malcolm X was assassinated. The internet made it worse.
But anyway, yeah, politics=bad. Live and let live. Let's go back to classic liberalism. Sure other people might be "wrong" but who cares?
Dammit I'm hippie-dippie, aren't I? This song is my theme song. Where do I apply to become an honorary Canadian?
But...but...the political ban was a good thing. Oh My GAWD the APOCRALYPSE is upon US.
Well sort of. But not really.
All this weird stupid stuff predated the internet. That whole stupid Isle of Patmos thing existed even before Malcolm X was assassinated. The internet made it worse.
No, I think it was partly a logical jump that made things worse. Nazism is bad and it's okay to blacklist Neo-Nazis. Racists are bad and the same thing is true. Why not start applying this to homophobia, sexism, transphobia, etc etc. Alas, BAD IDEA.
Then the last US president (Donald Trump) really turned things to eleven. Nah, to THIRTEEN. People who were once mildly political now became fundamentalists. It got far far worse. Now that he's gone maybe things will calm down a bit? Hahahah who am I kidding?
(yes, I'm being Amerocentric, but the internet is dominated by Americans, is it not?)
Then the last US president (Donald Trump) really turned things to eleven. Nah, to THIRTEEN. People who were once mildly political now became fundamentalists. It got far far worse. Now that he's gone maybe things will calm down a bit? Hahahah who am I kidding?
(yes, I'm being Amerocentric, but the internet is dominated by Americans, is it not?)
But anyway, yeah, politics=bad. Live and let live. Let's go back to classic liberalism. Sure other people might be "wrong" but who cares?
Dammit I'm hippie-dippie, aren't I? This song is my theme song. Where do I apply to become an honorary Canadian?
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
Truthfully this was never really that common except in post-WW2 America where a "liberal consensus" existed and political identity was a relatively minor aspect of one's self. The plot to destroy it had begun by 1964, and had basically been shattered by the ignominious end of Nixon's reign. Rick Perlstein has a great quartet of books covering this, tho' unfortunately it mainly looks at elite culture (political parties and campaigns).
In the decades since, political affiliation in the US has come to be the strongest aspect of one's identity, predicting one's views on numerous issues ranging from the directly political to consumer habits to where you live, while crowding out other aspects of being. There are complex, overlapping reasons why, but the trend is clear. Amartya Sen points out in Identity and Violence: The Illusion of Destiny that such simplifications of identity are usually a prelude to collective violence (Carl Schmitt said something similar decades beforehand but was for the collective violence).
EOTB
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Recency bias and our life expectancies give the illusion that post-1960 was a longer-lasting norm of wide-open acceptance of most nearly anything on all points of a spectrum
I don’t think that holds true. Historically speaking our experience is a blip, and what most people call fundamentalism (on all sides) were the social norm - whatever the dominant norm was, departing from it wasn’t allowed.
I suspect what we consider as possible forever, the experience of the past 60 years, is always and only possible as a temporary disruption; something that must return to a tight social norming if one form or another.
No ideology will content itself forever with “just the tip” - which is what the past 60 years has effectively been, for all of them.
The question is which one coalesces into dominance, and then there’s the unprecedented technology never before possessed to identify non-conformance, and then what reaction that identified non-conformance will receive
I don’t think that holds true. Historically speaking our experience is a blip, and what most people call fundamentalism (on all sides) were the social norm - whatever the dominant norm was, departing from it wasn’t allowed.
I suspect what we consider as possible forever, the experience of the past 60 years, is always and only possible as a temporary disruption; something that must return to a tight social norming if one form or another.
No ideology will content itself forever with “just the tip” - which is what the past 60 years has effectively been, for all of them.
The question is which one coalesces into dominance, and then there’s the unprecedented technology never before possessed to identify non-conformance, and then what reaction that identified non-conformance will receive
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
This. Period.
Melan
*eyeroll*
I will have to write this up in a more detailed manner, because I think it is a good way to look at game worlds that are internally consistent (sort of), yet full of puzzles and strange things. Don't want to distract you guys from the juicy politics, of course! Carry on! .)