TerribleSorcery
Should be playing D&D instead
I did not! Please expand on that.
Isle of Dread
- Thread starter Mage Hand
- Start date
My wife did a volunteer gig teaching writing to homeless youth. Only two or three guys showed up most of the time. They werent doing so well in a lot of ways. Guy#1 had really bad Tourette's. The other guy, his friend, only spoke in weird sounds (though he wrote in English). "He's not really a human" explained guy #1, "hes a dragon. He just looks human. But he speaks draconic. Only I can understand him." This is a true story.
So I thought about this kid a lot, about the same time I started running Barrowmaze with all these kids in their 20s. They wanted to play new races I have no feeling for, like those giant nature dudes and whatever, and I concluded that the people in the tavern in Helix have no more of an idea who is an elf or a dragon born or a fallen celestial or whatever than My wife did with that guy in her class. But when they go into fantasy, like in the dungeon or forest, then it comes out.
So, I don't deny their abilities, i just don't make a big deal about it and the players don't care. Npcs treat the freaky tiefling chic like any other freaky chic.
It just put me off at first cause it was new.
Anyway...the tiefling chic's first big bad was her Hermaphroditic bad ex sex partner the giant slug person. So that showed her.
So I thought about this kid a lot, about the same time I started running Barrowmaze with all these kids in their 20s. They wanted to play new races I have no feeling for, like those giant nature dudes and whatever, and I concluded that the people in the tavern in Helix have no more of an idea who is an elf or a dragon born or a fallen celestial or whatever than My wife did with that guy in her class. But when they go into fantasy, like in the dungeon or forest, then it comes out.
So, I don't deny their abilities, i just don't make a big deal about it and the players don't care. Npcs treat the freaky tiefling chic like any other freaky chic.
It just put me off at first cause it was new.
Anyway...the tiefling chic's first big bad was her Hermaphroditic bad ex sex partner the giant slug person. So that showed her.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I've slowly come to the mindset that PC should probably just stick with humans, because that's how they inevitably end up playing their characters anyways. Also, "role playing" in D&D is a red herring...it's just a bit of icing, and not the core of the game by a long-shot. It probably would have been better at the get-go if D&D wasn't labeled an RPG, as it puts the focus in the wrong direction.
I felt the same way three years ago, but not any more. It must depend a lot on the players, of course.
I do agree 100% that they inevitably play their characters as human anyway, but they next step from there in my opinion is to let them play whatever they want and forget about it. Treat them like humans: they have friends, enemies, goals, etc etc. The people in the town don't notice or care unless they display some outlandish magical ability like growing wings or something like that. Something the players have to trigger on their own.
I think when I picked up this hobby I was playing two fantasy games. One was DND. The other one was trying to relive the early 1980's DnD except now with money, friends, and an attention span, all of which I lacked before. So I kept trying to get people to play with me in this 1E style, (that I didn't even follow myself when I played 1E when I was in my teens), but the players don't like it. The fact that an adventure is old, or classic, has no intrinsic value to them.
So now I have just started writing my own shit, based on what they seem to like, (which you, Squeen, encouraged me to do months ago) and it does work much better.
I do agree 100% that they inevitably play their characters as human anyway, but they next step from there in my opinion is to let them play whatever they want and forget about it. Treat them like humans: they have friends, enemies, goals, etc etc. The people in the town don't notice or care unless they display some outlandish magical ability like growing wings or something like that. Something the players have to trigger on their own.
I think when I picked up this hobby I was playing two fantasy games. One was DND. The other one was trying to relive the early 1980's DnD except now with money, friends, and an attention span, all of which I lacked before. So I kept trying to get people to play with me in this 1E style, (that I didn't even follow myself when I played 1E when I was in my teens), but the players don't like it. The fact that an adventure is old, or classic, has no intrinsic value to them.
So now I have just started writing my own shit, based on what they seem to like, (which you, Squeen, encouraged me to do months ago) and it does work much better.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Glad to hear that! Yeah, make it work. Whatever it takes.
DangerousPuhson
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Ooof bud, yeah that's not a universal quality of the game so much as it is specific to a particular group dynamic. It's a shame really; there's very much fun to be had with the whole "play-acting" component of the game. It adds a real visceral layer to the fun that you just can't get with nice descriptions or pretty pictures.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
We've always been pretty light on the role-playing, but the visceral is there nevertheless. Players identifiy with their character's actions. It's unavoidable. The "RP" in RPG also strikes me as forced...usually coming out only after all the real action has died down. Not that I mind players acting goofy and taking silly risks. That's part of the fun too....they just do it --- no Halloween costume required.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Emphasis added.
If you mean what I think you mean, I think that is roleplaying. It's not acting, it's making decisions in character, and reacting to things the way your character would react to them. Almost nobody I have ever played with used goofy voices, but a lot of them, including myself, stay in-character with respect to decision making.
For instance, I have a player whose character, Koln, a neutral half-orc fighter who was disinherited by his human parent, makes very different decisions from another character of his, Larenthian, who is a paladin who grew up in the aristocracy. And he is attached to them; those characters were originally AD&D characters in the 80s, but the player asked me to reboot them for my 4d campaign now.
To me D&D is a narrative game, so PC and NPC activities and dialogue are narrated, not acted. I have mentioned before that I like to run a serious game that is character driven, and nothing would ruin the mood like me acting out the role of a female character in falsetto, for instance. But I do love running NPCs with distinct personalities that the PCs are able to get to know well enough to be able to predict their behaviour.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I have no quibble about what you've said. To me, PC's staying "in character" is a very light framework that takes backseat to the environmental drama/desire to "win" vs. the world. Avatarism only gets distasteful when it starts to dominate the game ("Let me tell you about MY paladin..." Coincidentally, all of my players have tried to create backstories that put them firmly in the aristocracy. I say: not allowed. It makes the climb from nobody to somebody more rewarding. You are akin to dirt+staring-gold at roll-up. Fresh off the boat. Dig. Work for it.). That's why I prefer to de-emphasize role-playing. Folks can mistakenly latch on to that, and miss the heart/point of the game. Colorful NPC's are a MUST---but that's all environment. The world plays the straight-man. The PC's effectively bring a (restrained) version of their 21st Century selves. The player's character is just a conduit for action. PC race should be largly irrelevant to play.
Furthermore, when designing a world for challenging play, I am starting to think it might be better if the vast majority of PCs were human. Then all the darkvision crap goes away, age/time make sense, elves don't become bumbling fools, and dwarves a rediculopus caricature. Everything alien preserves it mystique. But you've heard all of this from me before...I repeat myself.
(I have spoken.
)
Furthermore, when designing a world for challenging play, I am starting to think it might be better if the vast majority of PCs were human. Then all the darkvision crap goes away, age/time make sense, elves don't become bumbling fools, and dwarves a rediculopus caricature. Everything alien preserves it mystique. But you've heard all of this from me before...I repeat myself.
(I have spoken.
)
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The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
This is my new favourite word!
I've got a buddy who refuses to play standard races. He wants to step out of himself and be something new and weird and alien in each campaign.
I find taking a non-standard race informs role play. It leads to interesting decision making as @Beoric mentioned and it helps everybody shed their weekday skins and step into something else for a few hours every week.
We're definitely not Rrrrrrroleplaying. We had a guy in our group who was a (very) minor local celebrity picking up bit-parts and tv-ads and he got really frustrated at the lack of high draHma in our game sessions, so I know we're not at that end of the spectrum; but several of us definitely like to be exceptional; to be other, and we stick to that role at the table. It's definitely part of the game and what separated ODD from Chainmail in my opinion.
I think that rolling with weird shit is one of the cool challenges to player skill. Especially for the DM, but players too. Put a twist on things... But hopefully not stupid ones. Roll dice. Roll with the results. Otherwise why not play Total War?
I'm experimenting with awkward social situations in the game. Players seem to like them too.
Next week they Will probably run into the villains wife. He's a goblin. She a hill giant. But she is friendly and very nice. Unless they make her mad. I think they will just murder her but maybe not.
Gotta go.
I'm experimenting with awkward social situations in the game. Players seem to like them too.
Next week they Will probably run into the villains wife. He's a goblin. She a hill giant. But she is friendly and very nice. Unless they make her mad. I think they will just murder her but maybe not.
Gotta go.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I let my players run whatever the hell they want, with whatever personality they want (as long as it does not sabotage the party). If you want to play something over the top that's fine - as long as you are prepared to accept the consequences. Your aristocrat comes with family obligations and may be forced to deal with a certain amount of intrigue, and if your bladeling warlock looks like a monster you shouldn't be surprised if people treat him like a monster.
And if they want to play a character which has the player's exact personality that's fine too. My current thing as a player starting at first level is a character who used to be higher level but gave it up for a day job and a family, and is now out of shape with atrophied skills. I seem to relate to that better than playing a 16 y.o. for some reason.
And if they want to play a character which has the player's exact personality that's fine too. My current thing as a player starting at first level is a character who used to be higher level but gave it up for a day job and a family, and is now out of shape with atrophied skills. I seem to relate to that better than playing a 16 y.o. for some reason.
Ok guys. In the latest dungeon (sea caves) the players did not engage with either faction very much. So, they ended up fighting both factions at about the same time. So, after several hours of boss fight they run for the exit- a darkened tunnel. It looked ok from far away. However, when they get to the cave mouth, with the earth shaking and rocks falling etc, it is blocked by a locked iron gate. I imagined that the key is on a hook 5 or 6 feet away on the other side of the gate. Lots of chances to bend the bars , use magic to get the key with the bad guys catching up, whatever. But they dont even look. They just turn around and run for the long way out.
This is fine with me. My question is: should I have told them they key was there when they didnt even look at all? Because it would have been fun if they had found it. Or, not? I chose not, but have doubts.
I always feel like I am either too generous with clues or too chintzy.
I know if we had fun it was good but rules of thumb make me happy if you all have any.
Thanks.
This is fine with me. My question is: should I have told them they key was there when they didnt even look at all? Because it would have been fun if they had found it. Or, not? I chose not, but have doubts.
I always feel like I am either too generous with clues or too chintzy.
I know if we had fun it was good but rules of thumb make me happy if you all have any.
Thanks.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Hmm. I struggle with that too. I think you did it right.
That's challenging the player to always be thinking, and not panic.
If it was critical to the adventure, the Alexandrian blog suggests 3 clues per element.
When I was a player, we used to laugh (after the fact) at our own stupidity. Takes a healthy mental attitude to accept failure and roll with the punches. If you spoon feed the players to keep the narrative beneficial, I think long-term it's harmful. The game loses validity. Unsolved Puzzles/Challenges add mystery and grit to the world. The PCs may still surprise you and return some day to find out what's beyond that gate.
I strive (and fail) to be the neutral interpreter of the world. That's my beef with improv (e.g. unprepared content)---it leaves too much up in the air for me to real-time judge. I am a more impartial judge in my quiet pre-game moments. Then, it's just (mostly) interpretation of content-as-written. A sort of object permanence vs. "let's pretend". If you had written the key was 3' on the other-side of the gate---then that's where it is...can't be helped. In those situations, I just look at my players and shrug as if to say "Whatcha want me to do? My hands are tied. It's written right here."
But we can't prep everything....which is both good and bad---because good players love doing the unexpected, and a good DM loves that too. My default is usually now, as EOTB says, "Let the players win." (i.e. reward creative thinking or expenditure of resources). Sometimes I botch that---and that's when I am mostly likely to post a similar me a culpa here too.
In your example, they weren't being good/smart players. So, no candy for them.
That's challenging the player to always be thinking, and not panic.
If it was critical to the adventure, the Alexandrian blog suggests 3 clues per element.
When I was a player, we used to laugh (after the fact) at our own stupidity. Takes a healthy mental attitude to accept failure and roll with the punches. If you spoon feed the players to keep the narrative beneficial, I think long-term it's harmful. The game loses validity. Unsolved Puzzles/Challenges add mystery and grit to the world. The PCs may still surprise you and return some day to find out what's beyond that gate.
I strive (and fail) to be the neutral interpreter of the world. That's my beef with improv (e.g. unprepared content)---it leaves too much up in the air for me to real-time judge. I am a more impartial judge in my quiet pre-game moments. Then, it's just (mostly) interpretation of content-as-written. A sort of object permanence vs. "let's pretend". If you had written the key was 3' on the other-side of the gate---then that's where it is...can't be helped. In those situations, I just look at my players and shrug as if to say "Whatcha want me to do? My hands are tied. It's written right here."
But we can't prep everything....which is both good and bad---because good players love doing the unexpected, and a good DM loves that too. My default is usually now, as EOTB says, "Let the players win." (i.e. reward creative thinking or expenditure of resources). Sometimes I botch that---and that's when I am mostly likely to post a similar me a culpa here too.
In your example, they weren't being good/smart players. So, no candy for them.
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The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I think you should have mentioned the keys. Hack & Slash summed it up neatly:
"Remember. . . is designed to avoid real world frustration. You are sitting in a room with real people who are friends. It is not your job to make those people jump through hoops. Player skill is about making informed choices, not recalling something they may not have even noted in the first place. What this tool does is skip past the bewilderment of a player to quickly get back to the interesting parts of the game. "
He gets a little deeper into informed decisions here.
It sounds a bit like the PC's reacted too quickly for you to get a chance to properly describe their surroundings/options though? If the PC's are going to cut off my dramatic villain monologue then it's not DM fiat that they didn't know the floor that they're charging across is a minefield of glyphs...
"Remember. . . is designed to avoid real world frustration. You are sitting in a room with real people who are friends. It is not your job to make those people jump through hoops. Player skill is about making informed choices, not recalling something they may not have even noted in the first place. What this tool does is skip past the bewilderment of a player to quickly get back to the interesting parts of the game. "
He gets a little deeper into informed decisions here.
It sounds a bit like the PC's reacted too quickly for you to get a chance to properly describe their surroundings/options though? If the PC's are going to cut off my dramatic villain monologue then it's not DM fiat that they didn't know the floor that they're charging across is a minefield of glyphs...
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
If I am understanding your description properly, I think that, having made up the keys on the spot, you should have mentioned them. I wouldn't feel too bad though; you were doing your players a favour on the spur of the moment after they had already screwed up colossally. First, they default to fighting instead of talking. They end up picking a fight on two fronts at the same time. And they do so without a known path of retreat. And then faced with a non-necessarily impenetrable barrier they don't try to penetrate it. So having the key there at all was turning the dial half a click toward "easy".
What you could have done is remind them of their options, and more importantly in this situation tell them how long it takes to attempt them. They may not know whether their DM thinks it takes a round or a minute (if a round doesn't equal a minute) or 10 minutes to try to pick a lock, force a gate or bend the bars. Maybe give them a hint as to how hard it would be, it that is obvious enough to be taken in at a glance. When they panic the players may make assumptions about how the world works (i.e. how the DM will rule), whereas the characters who live in the world and understand its physics would know that information. IMO you should always provide the players with information that their characters would automatically know without them having to ask for it.
Players also need to be trained under conditions where they are not panicking to ask questions about their environment. The best way to do that is to provide vaguely described shiny things in the environment, and reward them for asking questions about it. This can be literal; if they see a glint of metal and ask about it they can find gold, even if that gold is tempting them toward some sort of risk. They also need to be trained to talk to monsters; the best way to do this is to have monsters talk to them.
What you could have done is remind them of their options, and more importantly in this situation tell them how long it takes to attempt them. They may not know whether their DM thinks it takes a round or a minute (if a round doesn't equal a minute) or 10 minutes to try to pick a lock, force a gate or bend the bars. Maybe give them a hint as to how hard it would be, it that is obvious enough to be taken in at a glance. When they panic the players may make assumptions about how the world works (i.e. how the DM will rule), whereas the characters who live in the world and understand its physics would know that information. IMO you should always provide the players with information that their characters would automatically know without them having to ask for it.
Players also need to be trained under conditions where they are not panicking to ask questions about their environment. The best way to do that is to provide vaguely described shiny things in the environment, and reward them for asking questions about it. This can be literal; if they see a glint of metal and ask about it they can find gold, even if that gold is tempting them toward some sort of risk. They also need to be trained to talk to monsters; the best way to do this is to have monsters talk to them.
Thanks all.
with a few more days, I think I should have mentioned the keys; though in an indirect way: "the tunnel is blocked by a locked iron gate. Just on the other side of the gate is a torch bracket with a small chain or something hanging from it." Something like that.
Hack and Slash Blog is my single favorite blog. I have read it all mostly twice. Of course, try to keep it all in your head in the heat of the moment.
For a big set piece battle it was pretty fun, but I know I can do better.
My next plan is to work out a format for my own notes so that I forget fewer details and do more thorough and efficient prep. Sometimes I spend way too much time on the same details ( two orcs? three orcs? two orcs?) without planning other things that are just as important. This might be worth a different thread. But if anyone has a notes template for encounters or adventures they write for themselves then I would love to see it. I would probably buy something like that from Drive through RPG or whatever if it was 5 bucks or less.
You guys are helping to keep me in this game, so thanks.
B
with a few more days, I think I should have mentioned the keys; though in an indirect way: "the tunnel is blocked by a locked iron gate. Just on the other side of the gate is a torch bracket with a small chain or something hanging from it." Something like that.
Hack and Slash Blog is my single favorite blog. I have read it all mostly twice. Of course, try to keep it all in your head in the heat of the moment.
For a big set piece battle it was pretty fun, but I know I can do better.
My next plan is to work out a format for my own notes so that I forget fewer details and do more thorough and efficient prep. Sometimes I spend way too much time on the same details ( two orcs? three orcs? two orcs?) without planning other things that are just as important. This might be worth a different thread. But if anyone has a notes template for encounters or adventures they write for themselves then I would love to see it. I would probably buy something like that from Drive through RPG or whatever if it was 5 bucks or less.
You guys are helping to keep me in this game, so thanks.
B
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Right?! I dream of effectively following the Alexandrian's procedures as well. That node design technique requires a strongly organizational personality...
btw. The Alexandrian has a ton of kickass cheat-sheets for free.
I have not been on these boards for almost three years, but have played a lot of dnd. We all switched to OSE. I have run a game now since May 2021 which is the longest I ever ran. Long story short: Black Wyrm of Brandonsford, Hole in Oak, Incandescent Grottos- Fun. Forbidden Caverns of Archaia- Not Fun, (except for the Deck of Many Things).
Now, they have made it to the third level dungeon that I added to the Grottoes. They found the labs they have been seeking, and the key. I have to design the lab with secrets, treasures, gizmos, traps etc, but not really combat. Our sessions, on Zoom, are like 2-2.5 hours so combat has to have real stakes or it doesn't work. (Also they will have an encounter to get in, and probably a big combat encounter to get out of the complex.) So, my question is, what is fun when players enter a space to search for things? I'm hoping for more interactivity and more ups and downs then just searching some shelves, finding some shit, writing it on their character sheets, and moving on. It should last about an hour or 90 minutes. Opening containers, secret compartments, needle traps, moving from a bright place to a dim place or a hot place to a cold place, reaching under a bed, just writing this is helping me but this seems like the place where people think about stuff like this. So, thanks in advance.
Now, they have made it to the third level dungeon that I added to the Grottoes. They found the labs they have been seeking, and the key. I have to design the lab with secrets, treasures, gizmos, traps etc, but not really combat. Our sessions, on Zoom, are like 2-2.5 hours so combat has to have real stakes or it doesn't work. (Also they will have an encounter to get in, and probably a big combat encounter to get out of the complex.) So, my question is, what is fun when players enter a space to search for things? I'm hoping for more interactivity and more ups and downs then just searching some shelves, finding some shit, writing it on their character sheets, and moving on. It should last about an hour or 90 minutes. Opening containers, secret compartments, needle traps, moving from a bright place to a dim place or a hot place to a cold place, reaching under a bed, just writing this is helping me but this seems like the place where people think about stuff like this. So, thanks in advance.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Mechanism with weird levers that do things to the PCs (switch minds/abilities/etc.) Apparatus of K'walish type gizmos with quirky effects.
Pools like those in B1. Do you drink?
Machines that vend quirky, un-balanced magic that is just as wildly dangerous as it is beneficial.
Welcome back!
Pools like those in B1. Do you drink?
Machines that vend quirky, un-balanced magic that is just as wildly dangerous as it is beneficial.
Welcome back!
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