Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
That sounds interesting. In addition, you could do a 'funhouse' adventure where the location continually shifts between the 2 parallel worlds..maybe everytime they open a door.
Foundations: Defining the Baseline
- Thread starter Grützi
- Start date
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I had the exact same thought. You obviously stole it from me with your psychic tendrils, you monster!
This all sounds like we are getting way too far ahead of ourselves though - instead of designing a few well-calibrated adventures, we are trying to build literally two entire worlds here...
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
Ok, so would everyone please keep their psychic tendrils out of others heads? That'd be awesome.DangerousPuhson said:
The parallel world thing sounds cool. Gives us a lot more freedom to explore different ideas. Doesn't work in normal world, put the idea into eldritch world.
DP is right though ... designing two worlds is a hell of a lot more work than just one.
The goal of this thread is still to get an overview of what everyone wants and doesn't want and extrapolate from there until we have the basics together so that everyone can live with that.
To be fair ... I would love to worldbuild a kind of "stranger things" parallel dimension thingy and am prepared to put some serious work into it
Still getting a common baseline together should be the primary goal right now ... then we can choose a system and get the first basics of a setting together. All of this of course influences everything else ... kind of like a feedback loop ... so we need to go a bit with the flow here and don't get hung up on too many details right now
From what I gather things that everyone wants or can agree on are:
Free-Form Sandbox Hexcrawl
A world that breathes and doesn't just wait on the PCs
at least on big dungeoncrawl
at least 3 different (thematically, alignement, style, advantages/disadvantages) starting locations
complex and interesting NPCS and monsters that are "realistic"
A setting that changes and reacts to PCs actions
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Slick
*eyeroll*
Well, not necessarily two entire worlds, just two versions of a small-ish hex region, but I'll wait for further input from everyone else. Do we even have a final headcount for who's in?
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DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Point of contention: hexcrawl, or pointcrawl? Hexcrawl kinda implies exploration of the unknown, whereas a pointcrawl is more about travelling to specific destinations. I don't prefer one over the other, but I would like to clarify, as they are two very different style of games which will require two different approaches, even if they're both considered sandboxes. A hexcrawl is much more "scattershot" when it comes to plots.
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
List of Participants
Beoric
Commodore
DangerousPuhson
Grützi
Ice
Malrex
The1True
Slick
Thats the current list.
Bold ones have given their preferences, must haves and do nots already ... normal ones may have taken part in this thread but didn't give their preferences in the given format.
Edit:
I think it was never the goal (and probably shouldn't be at this stage) to design entire worlds. A little setting, just enough to make it interesting and have a background for our adventures and modules to take place in. That'll all grow of course ... but at the beginning the basics will do.
I'm on the side of hexcrawls ... but just because I really never really ran a pointcrawl. Love the exploration of a hexcrawl though and feel this should be a big part of our work.
Beoric
Commodore
DangerousPuhson
Grützi
Ice
Malrex
The1True
Slick
Thats the current list.
Bold ones have given their preferences, must haves and do nots already ... normal ones may have taken part in this thread but didn't give their preferences in the given format.
Edit:
Ice said:
Beoric said:
I think it was never the goal (and probably shouldn't be at this stage) to design entire worlds. A little setting, just enough to make it interesting and have a background for our adventures and modules to take place in. That'll all grow of course ... but at the beginning the basics will do.
I'm on the side of hexcrawls ... but just because I really never really ran a pointcrawl. Love the exploration of a hexcrawl though and feel this should be a big part of our work.
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Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
It's ok to have a BIG picture. You just need to focus on the small stuff first to actually get something done--and you can always hint at the bigger picture. But yeah, things can blow up quick...which is fun..but can be paralyzing too.
I think Grutzi sums it up pretty good. I think my vote would be more Point-Crawl then Hexcrawl for the sandbox area as after reading the hex crawl thread, I realized that I don't understand hex crawls at all. But if people want a hex crawl, I'm happy to fill in wherever.
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
Hexcrawls vs. pointcrawls
Nice post on the hill cantons blog about the differences of hex- vs. pointcrawl.
Might be a good read for those of us who aren't sure what to vote or who have not much experience with one or both of the concepts.
Nice post on the hill cantons blog about the differences of hex- vs. pointcrawl.
Might be a good read for those of us who aren't sure what to vote or who have not much experience with one or both of the concepts.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Point crawls are for civilized areas. Hexcrawls are for wilderness, or clearing a territory.
I have a couple of questions, the answers to which would heavily influence my opinions on genre/themes/must have/do not. Is there an intended audience, or is this strictly for the amusement of the creators? And if there is an intended audience, who is it?
I have a couple of questions, the answers to which would heavily influence my opinions on genre/themes/must have/do not. Is there an intended audience, or is this strictly for the amusement of the creators? And if there is an intended audience, who is it?
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
The amusement we derive from it will be in "the grand experiment" of it all - to see if we can combine our heads to come up with the best adventures possible by using what we learn and accept as axioms of good adventure design. The fun of it is in uncovering what those axioms are together, as well as the bests applications for them in new, creative ways. This is the benefit of collaboration: not the fun of a group project for the sake of having a bunch of hands doing the same work (anyone who has been forced to do group projects in school can attest that sucks), but rather having a bunch of different minds investing into the same project.
In a way, the audience is whomever would appreciate something that's been assembled with the collaborative end in mind - the folks who want to try out what "the lab" has formulated for their enjoyment.
Commodore
*eyeroll*
Going full-up alternate dimensions seems...excessive, at least for a fairly introductory and presumably low-level (we do want this to be played, so it's gotta start level one) adventure. If we like the high mountain(s) setting, there's a natural dynamic that could be done with earthquakes/eruptions. I am a big fan of "oops, we woke up the mountain" as a player consequence that can lead to a lot of map changes and plenty of intrigue.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
The mountain setting could work, insofar as the mountain is absolutely huge, so much that it has spawned civilizations and has different biomes and such (forests growing on cliff plateaus, lost valleys, big-ass cave networks, and the massive snow-covered peak). Also provides a good reason for why the adventurers can't just wander away from it.
We'll have to devise a few movement rules for getting around though - it would suck to need to make 50 Climb checks just to get from one place to the other, so I see it as more in the same way Veins of the Earth works, except mountaineering instead of spelunking. Also, maybe the thing is a volcano or imprisons an Earth God or something, so there's room for the ticking clock element that I like.
Not sure how it can be hex-mapped though (many different axis to map out)...
We'll have to devise a few movement rules for getting around though - it would suck to need to make 50 Climb checks just to get from one place to the other, so I see it as more in the same way Veins of the Earth works, except mountaineering instead of spelunking. Also, maybe the thing is a volcano or imprisons an Earth God or something, so there's room for the ticking clock element that I like.
Not sure how it can be hex-mapped though (many different axis to map out)...
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
Alternate dimension:
I don't think the level of the party should have anything to do with the alternate dimension and it's playability.
Yes of course there are things like dimension door spells and the like ... but if we can always just design the whole thing for low level.
The party doesn't need fancy spells to change the planes ... it's just something you can do at certain places or at certain time. (Full moon, At graveyards, in the deep forrest, in the first light of the day,...)
Monsters and NPCS from other dimension also don't need to be more powerful than the things from the "home dimension" ... they are different sure, but not stronger. They have different weaknesses, are immun to some sources of damage, but take greater damage from other sources and so on. The party would need to "explore" these Monsters and NPCS the same way they would a normal setting.
That way even a beginners group of level 1 chars can "enjoy" the setting without getting wiped out first chance a portal opens or getting stranded in the dark dimension.
Mountain Setting:
Maybe the mountain is the Earth God .. or at least its corporal component. Could easily explain why the thing is so fucking big ... maybe it's even bigger on the inside ... spatial warping and changing landscapes could be explained by the grand divine energy flowing trough that place.
In this specific case I would recommend a point crawl ... Like DP said a hexmap doesn't translate well onto a heavily 3 dimensional landscape like a mountain range.
I don't think the level of the party should have anything to do with the alternate dimension and it's playability.
Yes of course there are things like dimension door spells and the like ... but if we can always just design the whole thing for low level.
The party doesn't need fancy spells to change the planes ... it's just something you can do at certain places or at certain time. (Full moon, At graveyards, in the deep forrest, in the first light of the day,...)
Monsters and NPCS from other dimension also don't need to be more powerful than the things from the "home dimension" ... they are different sure, but not stronger. They have different weaknesses, are immun to some sources of damage, but take greater damage from other sources and so on. The party would need to "explore" these Monsters and NPCS the same way they would a normal setting.
That way even a beginners group of level 1 chars can "enjoy" the setting without getting wiped out first chance a portal opens or getting stranded in the dark dimension.
Mountain Setting:
Maybe the mountain is the Earth God .. or at least its corporal component. Could easily explain why the thing is so fucking big ... maybe it's even bigger on the inside ... spatial warping and changing landscapes could be explained by the grand divine energy flowing trough that place.
In this specific case I would recommend a point crawl ... Like DP said a hexmap doesn't translate well onto a heavily 3 dimensional landscape like a mountain range.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
You guys are committing to making a lot of setting for this. Can I suggest something smaller?
One project that I started and never finished (and I’m not suggesting you use the project, just the structure) is something I call “Six days in Rhukaan Draal”. The ruler of a city has left for some purpose and left a weak lieutenant in charge. Soon after, there is an assassination attempt on a popular figure.
Whether the attempt fails or succeeds, several factions blame each other for the assassination attempt, and over the course of days tensions rise and eventually they start staging raids on each other and the city divides into armed camps. Each day the DM randomly selects factions to take actions against other factions, and the chaos level in the city increases, sort of like the Chaos Index in Fever Dreaming Marlinko. Depending on what the players do they can increase or decrease the chaos level.
There are three defined potential adventures. There is an investigation adventure where the PCs try to unravel the assassination plot. There is a lair assault where they are recruited for a lair assault/heist/rescue against one of the factions (slavers in my campaign, with a lair that looked a lot like A1 for reasons that will become clear). Or they can ignore everything going on around them and explore a dungeon below the city. Trying to keep the peace, or siding with one of the factions (all of which will be trying to recruit the PCs if they gain any notoriety), are other options.
Also, it starts to rain. Once enough actions are taken against one of the factions, the sewers back up; eventually this will flood both the dungeon and the slave pits, which makes those adventures time limited. And eventually the city’s ruler will return and restore order, making the other adventures time limited.
So you have a city sandbox with a bunch of potential adventures, none of which have to be that big because of the time limits. They range from investigations to intrigue to investigation to dungeon crawl to heist/rescue/lair assault (depending on the players’ approach to the slaver compound). With a potential social component because of the factions. And the city changes over time, both because of the rising tensions between the factions, and the rising floodwaters in the slave pits and the dungeon.
And instead of a city you could use a region. And instead of factions you could use a number of bordering fiefs, with an absent overlord. And instead of a flood you could use a famine, as conscripted peasants are not tending crops. For that matter, the rising tensions could draw the region closer to The Plane of Eternal War, and bizarre and violent phenomena could bleed into the world.
And one of the adventures could include a hexcrawl through the wilderness, and another could include a pointcrawl amongst farms, villages, castles and other landmarks. For that matter, you could introduce some of the elements of domain play.
And by the time the overlord returns to restore order, the players will be familiar with this seething mess of a sandbox and a lot of the people in it. And if their actions please the overlord, perhaps one will receive a small manor. While their jealous neighbours plot against them.
Well, at least the maps would be smaller.
Also, has anyone else ever noticed that they tend to DM the game they wish they were playing in?
One project that I started and never finished (and I’m not suggesting you use the project, just the structure) is something I call “Six days in Rhukaan Draal”. The ruler of a city has left for some purpose and left a weak lieutenant in charge. Soon after, there is an assassination attempt on a popular figure.
Whether the attempt fails or succeeds, several factions blame each other for the assassination attempt, and over the course of days tensions rise and eventually they start staging raids on each other and the city divides into armed camps. Each day the DM randomly selects factions to take actions against other factions, and the chaos level in the city increases, sort of like the Chaos Index in Fever Dreaming Marlinko. Depending on what the players do they can increase or decrease the chaos level.
There are three defined potential adventures. There is an investigation adventure where the PCs try to unravel the assassination plot. There is a lair assault where they are recruited for a lair assault/heist/rescue against one of the factions (slavers in my campaign, with a lair that looked a lot like A1 for reasons that will become clear). Or they can ignore everything going on around them and explore a dungeon below the city. Trying to keep the peace, or siding with one of the factions (all of which will be trying to recruit the PCs if they gain any notoriety), are other options.
Also, it starts to rain. Once enough actions are taken against one of the factions, the sewers back up; eventually this will flood both the dungeon and the slave pits, which makes those adventures time limited. And eventually the city’s ruler will return and restore order, making the other adventures time limited.
So you have a city sandbox with a bunch of potential adventures, none of which have to be that big because of the time limits. They range from investigations to intrigue to investigation to dungeon crawl to heist/rescue/lair assault (depending on the players’ approach to the slaver compound). With a potential social component because of the factions. And the city changes over time, both because of the rising tensions between the factions, and the rising floodwaters in the slave pits and the dungeon.
And instead of a city you could use a region. And instead of factions you could use a number of bordering fiefs, with an absent overlord. And instead of a flood you could use a famine, as conscripted peasants are not tending crops. For that matter, the rising tensions could draw the region closer to The Plane of Eternal War, and bizarre and violent phenomena could bleed into the world.
And one of the adventures could include a hexcrawl through the wilderness, and another could include a pointcrawl amongst farms, villages, castles and other landmarks. For that matter, you could introduce some of the elements of domain play.
And by the time the overlord returns to restore order, the players will be familiar with this seething mess of a sandbox and a lot of the people in it. And if their actions please the overlord, perhaps one will receive a small manor. While their jealous neighbours plot against them.
Well, at least the maps would be smaller.
Also, has anyone else ever noticed that they tend to DM the game they wish they were playing in?
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
As most of us have given their preferences, themes, must haves and do nots I have put them together into a single file, looked over them and sorted them in a (hopefully) sensible manner.
Our big main themes are Exploration and a certain gritty realism in the setting. As a small extra we would obviously love us some ancient, lost civilization. Some things overlap, I tried to model that in the graph.
The big thing everyone wants is a living, realistic, interesting world. Most of us also want at least one big dungeon in the setting
Interesting NPCs and Monsters are also mentioned quite often, so I put them in there as a subsection of a living world.
The Do Nots are pretty straightforward. We don't want stupid or boring NPCs, Monsters or Antagonists.
The rest are all things I put under general style as you see. I think that graph is pretty self explanatory
What do you say? Can we work with this? Is this a good baseline to get some things done?
If yes then I suppose we could move towards settling on a system and getting the first basics for the setting done.
Would also help a great deal with Puhsons Tasks in the other thread.
@Beoric:
I read your post and will try to reply later... had kind of a hard day :/
Our big main themes are Exploration and a certain gritty realism in the setting. As a small extra we would obviously love us some ancient, lost civilization. Some things overlap, I tried to model that in the graph.
The big thing everyone wants is a living, realistic, interesting world. Most of us also want at least one big dungeon in the setting
Interesting NPCs and Monsters are also mentioned quite often, so I put them in there as a subsection of a living world.
The Do Nots are pretty straightforward. We don't want stupid or boring NPCs, Monsters or Antagonists.
The rest are all things I put under general style as you see. I think that graph is pretty self explanatory
What do you say? Can we work with this? Is this a good baseline to get some things done?
If yes then I suppose we could move towards settling on a system and getting the first basics for the setting done.
Would also help a great deal with Puhsons Tasks in the other thread.
@Beoric:
I read your post and will try to reply later... had kind of a hard day :/
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Great Venn diagram.
This is looks like a excellent start!
Thanks for staying on top of this.
One question though, when we say "re-skinned humanoids" and "Demi-humans" what do we mean? I assume most of us are pretty sick of Orcs, Goblins and Kobolds.
Maybe bird headed people, or jackal people, or humans with silver skin. I am just brainstorming here.