Design by Committee: Superhero Dungeon Edition
- Thread starter The1True
- Start date
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I like Roman numerals, but having enumerated stock types for a monster that is supposed to embody chaos adds nothing to the implied setting. Especially since Type VI-VI demons are supposed to have unique names, and only six Type VI demons are supposed to exist. If you absolutely have to have a class, make the Type I's "Charnel Feeders", the Type V's "Sisters of Glasya" and the Type VI's "Malevolence of Ash", and bake in variations in their appearance.
Numbering types of devils in hell's infernal bureaucracy, now that would make sense. All the devils in a class would look identical, and they would all have the same number of hit points.
EDIT: Alternate name for Type VI's, "Demons of Burning Hate".
Numbering types of devils in hell's infernal bureaucracy, now that would make sense. All the devils in a class would look identical, and they would all have the same number of hit points.
EDIT: Alternate name for Type VI's, "Demons of Burning Hate".
Two orcs
Officially better than you, according to PoN
That's not a legal way to write a roman number.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Oops! You're right.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Poor Pythagoras trying to find the square root of the hypotenuse!
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
All of the above! The two activities are not mutually exclusive to my mind.
I would put challenge escalation in order: First Social as the rot in society is uncovered, then Strategic as it explodes across the land and then Tactical as the adventurers seek the source of the devastation. Exploratory is the glue that brings it all together. Obviously there's room for a little of every type of challenge in each Act, but broad strokes...
It's possible that we're imagining two different kinds of product though. Perhaps you're seeing a product that would be the PC's just dealing with their problems at court or waging wars across the land or exploring the lair of their nemesis? And it's true, if the objective is to keep the page-count under control, such differentiations might have to be made...
I'm not locked into anything at the moment, I'd just like to collect solid ideas here to begin with. What I was also hoping for though was to poke holes in these ideas. The big problem with high level play is high level characters (particularly spellcasters) can do an end run around many of the conventional challenges DM's like to use as a crutch.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
If you make it so that a ruse directs the party to a far away location (e.g. your island), that uses up 2 teleport spells (there and back). Ends up the whole place is just a trap, and the McGuffin was just a lure.
Bad guy Tactic #1... (also exploratory)
I think the product would have to be marketed as "Dungeon Masterclasses" because it would expect a whole lot of skill on the DM's part to pull off. It could contain a number of fluid "scenarios" each with an intended purpose to hurt the PCs -B-U-T- in order to not be a railroad, the scenarios would instead be a smorgasbord of things you could throw at the party depending on how the "hidden rival" would react to their actions, and what fit the particular PCs modus operandi.
Probably too hard. This type of play is probably better suited for DMs who are already cooking their own campaign world and feel comfortable doing this kind of covert Machiavellian plotting.
If such a thing could be done, it might do well to present it as a teaching tool: "How toTake Down Challenge High-level Special Snowflakes Characters without Resorting to the Tarrasque".
Would need a lot of play testing, too.
Bad guy Tactic #1... (also exploratory)
I think the product would have to be marketed as "Dungeon Masterclasses" because it would expect a whole lot of skill on the DM's part to pull off. It could contain a number of fluid "scenarios" each with an intended purpose to hurt the PCs -B-U-T- in order to not be a railroad, the scenarios would instead be a smorgasbord of things you could throw at the party depending on how the "hidden rival" would react to their actions, and what fit the particular PCs modus operandi.
Probably too hard. This type of play is probably better suited for DMs who are already cooking their own campaign world and feel comfortable doing this kind of covert Machiavellian plotting.
If such a thing could be done, it might do well to present it as a teaching tool: "How to
Would need a lot of play testing, too.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Outline any of the player tactics you would place into this category and I bet I can come up with countermeasures implemented by the Evil Overlord that are not a gimp.
I think you would be prepping the situation, not scenarios. You could give examples of how the Evil Overlord would respond to typical activities, however, as well as what resources he has and what resources he will typically commit.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm a big fan of this technique. I tried to do that with Irradiated Paradox; provide a smorgasbord of situations (within situations) but got called out on abuse of If:Thens, which is fair and probably comes from my years of video game design. I'm not sure I'm entirely understanding why it's a sin. I'm assuming because it's something to do with imposing the digital limitations of video game problem solving on the fluid nature of tabletop gaming (?) but I'd love to read a more thorough explanation.
Maybe we should start from that instead? I've been wracking my brain for the worst high-level PC offences, but I'm ashamed to reveal how ineffective my own group is. We regularly make it to high level in our campaigns but rarely abuse the strategies I've seen online like all-day-every-day Detect Evil/Traps/Undead/Secret Doors etc. This latest campaign, my wizard has wrecked the DM's day by casting Anticipate Teleportation (and now Greater Anticipate Teleportation) which last 24 hrs and has absolutely ended our numerous factional enemies dropping in on us unannounced. (I feel like when your players start researching and deploying spells like this, it's time to try something else motherfucker.) Worth every penny. And sure, dungeon-buffed, my guy his hovering near a 50 AC, but he's always one good Greater Dispel or Antimagic Field away from terrifying nakedness.
Anyway, here are the major offenders shriveling the balls of DM's everywhere (that I can think of):
Teleport, Greater Teleport, Dimension Door, Planeshift, Gate, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness.
Passwall, Stoneshape, Gaseous Form, Phase Door.
Commune, Discern Location, Locate Object/Creature, Scrying, True Seeing, Vision, Find Traps, Find the Path.
Wish and Miracle (but honestly, for most groups I've played with the whole session grinds to a halt while everyone calls in their attorneys to get the wording just right and then argue their case before the judge so the only thing to fear here is the use of multiple wishes to brute-force a solution to an intractable problem, which absolutely can happen but kinda implies the DM has failed to offer alternative options.)
There are also serious abuses of Force Cage, Maze, Time Stop, Limited Wish, Clone, Simulacrum, Polymorph-Any, Temporal Stasis, Imprisonment, Shapechange, but what's good for the goose as they say...
And then over on the DM's side: You're never going to see PC's use Mordenkainen's ("Mages") Disjunction. That's just wanton destruction of future treasure! You want to make a high level PC cry like a baby; not even level-drain can touch the shear ugliness of disjoining their favourite magic items...
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I don't want to get trapped in the island idea...
but
This teleportation idea made me think... Why would anyone sit on an island while it sinks to the depths? But what if they were given a description of the place comprehensive enough to attempt a teleport like you suggest. They arrive and it's all lovely and sunny, but it's an illusion. The island has been in a bubble at the bottom of an abyssal trench the whole time and after some exploration and hijinks the bubble cracks bringing crushing pressure, freezing cold, impenetrable darkness, imminent drowning and the toothy dwellers of the depths crashing in all at once!
This scene or very small mini-dungeon/ruin crawl soaks up time, two teleports and throws in a savage deathtrap/horrifying combat to boot. The McGuffin should be real and at least semi mission-critical though.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
or they retrieved the artifact for the REAL villain...
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Or the artifact IS the real villain....duh duh duuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh!
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Because the reason they went there still exists.
Re: OP PCs, I forgot this was 3.5, which I don't know very well. Also that's quite a list and I'm not going to deal with every spell individually. My general response to "scry and die" is to read the scrying and teleportation entries very carefully and assess their limitations. How good a look does the scryer really get of the area, is it really good enough to teleport with accuracy? Is it enough to "visualize" an area for dimension door? How much time does the BBEG spend in his main rooms anyway, ie. when you scry him, what are the odds that he will still be there when you teleport? Can his central chambers - bedroom, dining room, war-room - be in a pocket dimension, like Mordenkainen's Mansion, to make scrying more difficult and greater teleport risky? Can he be in a room that is essentially featureless - at least within 10' of where he is likely to stand - or clouded the area with smoke or steam, making it harder to gain familiarity with the area? Can he have constructed several identical spaces that are filled with poison gas and traps so that it is likely that teleporters will end up in the deadly rooms?
Insulate rooms from passwall by having a cistern or other water hazard surrounding the room - the passwall opens a passage into the water instead of the room, flooding the area the PCs are casting the spell from.
Find traps requires a good hard look at defining a trap. Is appears to be limited to conventional traps that are detectable by "find trap" rolls, so I expect high level dungeon would just not include that sort of trap. Is a hallway full of gas a trap? Is the cistern mentioned above a trap? I don't think so under this definition. You can also make existence of the trap obvious, but the nature of it obscure, like the open, spiked pit that you try to jump over, only to hit an invisible wall mid-air.
The 3.5 version of Find the Path presents a conundrum. It is probably best addressed by ensuring that knowing the path does not help you - or ensuring there is no path to find. Knowing the best way to avoid a trap or hazard doesn't help you if there is no way to avoid the trap, such as something keyed to alignment. And what if there are two paths, both with different unavoidable hazards, one of which is not clearly more better or safer than the other? One can also ensure that the "shortest, most direct physical route" is the most dangerous with unavoidable hazards, and requires that only an indirect, convoluted route be taken to avoid them. Or use the spell against them; the quickest, shortest route requires actions that require the PCs to blow a bunch of spell slots - eg. traps that are are disabled if someone casts a specific spell, the exact spell doesn't matter, as long as it competes for slots with spells that are a problem.
Wind and water seriously mess up gaseous form. True seeing does not help with nonmagical effects. Vision only works if you ask the right question. Many of the divination spells only work if you know who is the target of your investigation, which suggest that the Evil Overlord will conceal his identity, or even existence, or act through a strawman. Or confuse the issue by using polymorph any object to create a bunch of genetically identical duplicates.
Basically, you can construct a whole adventure designed to eat up all of the PCs' divination and teleportation spell slots. Don't try to avoid them per se, just make them use them up. Or force them to fill their slots with other spells.
Re: Anticipate Teleportation, I note it is limited to a 5' radius per level, which does not prevent teleportation outside the radius. So send in assassins who are deposited outside of the area and infiltrate the PC's stronghold - doing significant damage to the PCs' retainers along the way. That included agents teleported above a castle, using some sort of mechanism to fly. If the stronghold is underground, polymorph the assassins into Xorn first.
And don't have the BBEG throw all of this resources into a single assault. Have him test their defences, and learn from them. After all, he doesn't care if his minions die in the assault. The minions die a particular way, ok, he knows you have that spell and how you are deploying it.
Also, if you prep your situation well, you don't need a bunch of if-then statements, because consequences of PC actions will be clear from the nature of the faction/NPC and the resources available to him.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
@The1True I noticed a couple more things.
Passwall is completely defeated by any thickness of metal or other material denser than stone.
You could test (Greater) Anticipate Teleportation by sending in several minions at difference places to figure out the exact diameter of the warded zone, and extrapolate from that the level of the caster. You could also make the caster seriously sleep deprived by sending in minions every half hour for days on end; eventually maintaining the spell would be untenable, especially since the wizard could not recover spells, and the PCs would have to come up with other tactics.
Passwall is completely defeated by any thickness of metal or other material denser than stone.
You could test (Greater) Anticipate Teleportation by sending in several minions at difference places to figure out the exact diameter of the warded zone, and extrapolate from that the level of the caster. You could also make the caster seriously sleep deprived by sending in minions every half hour for days on end; eventually maintaining the spell would be untenable, especially since the wizard could not recover spells, and the PCs would have to come up with other tactics.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
It's not a huge concern. I don't think the spell exists in other editions and it's from a supplement (do hardcovers count as 'splat books'?) I use it to curb my DM who was repeatedly dropping assassins on us in our city campaign (since our party has managed to piss off pretty much every evil faction in the game world). Also no more snowball encounters starting with one lonely demon turning into a three-day running battle with half the forces of the Abyss as they exponentially summon more help. The DM has since diversified into attacking our properties and hench-people and other more insidious challenges which is all good. (I mean; it's bad and it keeps us sweating, but it's good in that it's not the same old same old.)
I think a lot of the high-level abuses are direct responses to low-level DM abuses and that's why a lot of DM's are scared of high-level play. Which is why I think a high-level adventure should allow players to stomp all over things and enjoy their hard earned powers in equal measure to being challenged by bespoke threats like lead walls and villains with spy networks.
At least two of the demon lords in Rappan Athuk made the mistake of giving us enough information (either through ambushing us in person or sending close servants after us) so that we were able to scry them and teleport on top of them, weapons hot. They had almost no chance. That kind of thing will make a DM cry. You have to let it happen once or twice, but eventually the lead wall's gotta happen. That's not DM fiat, that's a supra-genius BBEG responding to the tactics of his enemies.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I'll buy that. Many DMs seem to reap what they sow.