Design by Committee: Superhero Dungeon Edition

[The1True]

If the Megadungeon is the K2 where mighty bloggers go to find death and ruin (I've given up waiting for The Angry GM to wrap his up), then the High Level adventure is the Matterhorn, its majesty concealing an equally respectable death count. It seems to be a particularly nettlesome issue for older versions of the game. Anthony Huso has been tackling the subject adroitly in his blog for a while now and I put forward that it's time for the AD&R Design Committee to give it a shot! I propose we aim to lay down at least the framework for a minimum 16th lvl adventure!

I've got this old King Conan limited comic series where his kingdom gets invaded by minions of Set and he's forced to come out of retirement to lead his armies south to face Thulsa Doom once more. He personally leads his praetorian guard, a bunch of fighters obviously of name level across the river Styx and into a nightmare landscape of twisted undead abominations where most of the population of Stygia has been wiped out by unnamable horror. He has to fight hard to protect his crack troops and eventually only he is strong enough to hue his way to the heart of the evil and battle its otherworldly source. It is a template for an epic adventure if ever I saw one.

I think part of the problem for the old school is that so much of the fighting population caps out at 3rd lvl. It's hard to conceive how a city could have 9th level+ crack-troops or that an evil power consisting of tens or possibly hundreds of high-level monsters could gather without sweeping away everyone in the kingdom.

The other big problem is one of challenge. When high lvl spell casters can do an end run around almost anything, writing up monsters and obstacles gets pretty intimidating. With character balance out the window, the game can also become less fun for character classes with fewer abilities who may get sidelined while casters and rogues do all the work.

A lesser problem is one of motivation; but realistically, the players are here to play D&D. It shouldn't really take much to spur them out of comfortable domain play to put it all on the line once again.

I'm out of time for now, but I thought we could start by listing possible limitations and motivations for high lvl PC's. From there we could design some challenges (rooms, scenarios, mini-quests) which we could start to knit together into an adventure... Keep it little picture for now. I know people love blue-skying the big-picture plots'n themes here

 

[Beoric]

I think the first decision would have to be, is it going to be fundamentally the same as low level play, but with higher level combat challenges? Or will it be fundamentally different, with very few situations that can meaningfully be resolved by combat.

I find that most people who would prefer the first are already fine with high level play, their dungeons (or whatever) are just filled with balors (or similar challenges) instead of orcs, and enemy wizard abilities counter PC wizard shortcuts.

If you are the sort of person who thinks there is a problem with high level play, then you probably find the above unsatisfying. Which means high level play is going to have to be different in structure and assumptions from low level play. Which is a problem, because it means the DM and players have to let go of their assumptions about what default gameplay looks like.

Now, if you are writing a module to "fix" high level play and show that it can be done, then you probably don't fall into the first camp, because the people in the first camp don't see anything that needs to be fixed. And if you don't want to change gameplay in any serious away because you are happy with what you are doing then you probably aren't willing to do the things that need to be done to "fix" high level play.

So I guess what I am suggesting is that @The1True is suggesting requires a lot of out of the box thinking, and different approaches to the game. And I have a few thoughts.

* Constraints should not be on physical/magical power, but rather political/economic/social power. The king is not tougher than you, you could kill him and his entire bodyguard easily. The reason you might not kill the king is because of the consequences. You become an outlaw. Everywhere you go the town guard is called out, and you either have to run away constantly or slaughter village after village. Any property you hold which is not under your personal protection is seized. Your servants are imprisoned and maybe executed. Your lands are seized and your castle is razed, (including the wizard's library that he needs for spell research). No-one will accept your money or provide goods or services for fear of reprisals. If you leave the kingdom, the consequences follow you. Tensions arise with the duchy that you fled to as the kingdom demands that you be extradited, and accuses the duchy of orchestrating the assassination. The Duke is afraid of you and the duchy also becomes an unwelcoming place. You get the idea.

* Exploration should no longer be a significant pillar of play. It is too tied to the assumptions and procedures associated with taking things' stuff and killing them if it is necessary to acquire said stuff. You don't fix the "problem" of high level play by making higher level dungeons, more dangerous wildernesses, or uppling the level of city encounters.

* Keep the game on the prime material plane. Extraplanar adventures tend to be just outdoor dungeons.

* Pick the simplest, or most widely available, mass combat system you can think of, and pick it early, because you may be building around it.

* Avoid making it gonzo or exotic, at least at the early stages. You are asking DMs and players to accept a whole new mode of play, let them keep familiar touchstones while they are sorting it out. They need to be able to make assumptions about how the world works, so make the world as familiar as possible. That thought-experiment living castle I discussed a while back when we were talking about domain play? In retrospect, probably not a good idea.

 

[Beoric]

Possible motivations:

Fighter: The king is prepared to grant you a castle, lands and in the borderlands, provided that you are prepared to defend it from the humanoids in the hills. The humanoids are not high level, but there are many of them. Within reason, any expansion of the kingdom into the humanoid lands will be added to the fief (with commensurate increase in feudal obligations, of course). According to legend the Battle of Pegicor took place in the area, where the hero Relnor fell in battle. Stories of Relnor speak of his great strength, his prowess with a hammer of legend, and his mastery of lightning. His panoply was lost in the battle and never recovered. Note finding the panoply is an investigation problem, not primarily an exploration problem.

Cleric: For reasons that are not known to you, the arch-hierophant of your order has turned against you, publicly questioning your faith and commitment to the church. Other priests now avoid you, and you are generally unwelcome on church property. Your remaining friends in the church have suggested that a period of atonement, in the country and out of sight of the arch-hierophant, might help you weather the storm. There is a monastic order in the hills which will is in need of an abbot; although its fortunes have also fallen, you may gain status if you can turn them around; and the position allows you an excuse to return to the city from time to time to get to the bottom of the arch-hierophant’s grievance. Alternately, if the fighter accepts the king’s offer he will have a right of appointment over the clergy of the churches and chapels in his demesne.

Thief: The grandmaster in the city is sure his lieutenants are plotting his death, and offers to take you under his wing as his heir, pupil – and bodyguard. You are free to practice your trade, but you will also gain a piece of all illegal activity sanctioned by the guild, influence with the various “protected” businesses and mercantile guilds, and access to a partial network of disgruntled domestic servants from wealthy households. However, the grandmaster soon falls ill, possibly poisoned, and you have to fend off plays for power from your rivals; and the attention of the captain of the watch who has taken an interest in your activities.

Wizard: There is, in the hills, not far from the fighter’s lands, a place where the walls are thin between another plane of existence and our own. Accounts are not clear as to which plane it is, but it should be possible to increase your own power when in the vicinity of the place, at least in respect of the magic that is influenced by that plane. Moreover in that last library you raided you found partial plans for the construction of a tower which, if located in such a place and properly configured, could be of great assistance in the manufacture of all manner of magic items.

 

[Malrex]

I might have to sideline this as I'm swamped until January...but I'd love to see this progress.
Some odd ball, random ideas to be vomited forth--

Don't limit the magic/abilities...but perhaps use it against them. An effect where everything is doubled. Fireballs increase in AOE and damage. Magic resistance expands and you can't even be healed by friends, etc. You can fly...but it works so well you keep having to concentrate, otherwise you just keep levitating up to the heavens, etc.

I still think there should be a little bit of exploration--perhaps a side quest or small dungeon.

There needs to be choices...lots of choices...so that you use up resources. You can't be in 2 places at once--oh wait, you got teleport? ok...sure...but you really need to be in 4 places at once or something bad is going to happen--use your resources to get there to win, etc.

Political/Social/Economic power....characters can be tough to kill--but not their followers and people...make the threat against them. Losing your people will be a lose overall.

Some type of creature that absorbs or eats magic. So you can cast all the spells you want, but it just eats it and gets more powerful--so maybe more focus on versatile spells (like Dig) rather than damaging ones.

I keep thinking invasion...something extra-planar comes down to the Prime. Invading armies of strange creatures. Negotiators disappeared--PCs need to go find out what happened to them (King's son is involved or something) AND/OR lead their troops against these strange aliens AND/OR try to get small towns/establishments to safety before the onslaught AND/OR find the sage that knows about these creatures and can provide input, AND/OR even more choices to dwindle the PCs resources and spells--make them use all their glorious spells and magic items.

Exploratory part comes near the end where they enter the crashed spaceship and explore and conquer. Everything is enhanced inside...spells become so powerful that maybe they become useless in certain situations, etc.

 

[The1True]

I see I'm on a similar wavelength with @Malrex ! Here are some of the ideas I didn't get down last night:

The characters should be at the top of their game: At least one of them is a monarch or high nobility by this point. The priest is the hierophant/pope/high-priest/demigod, the rogue is a guild master, the wizard is court-wizard or an enigmatic recluse. Some or all of them working now towards apotheosis. Ambitions should be frustrated by the question "Where do we go from here?".

The characters' legend has grown. Even if they have destroyed their enemies and carefully curated their image, by this point they have been the source of documentation and there are those who know that the wizard specializes in fire magic, that the fighter doesn't go anywhere without his trusty vorpal sword, that the priest hates spiders etc. It is reasonable for a powerful foe to prepare themselves specifically to deal with these superheroes.

Honestly, it helps at this level to put our mindsets in a comic book superhero framework. Superman is a living god, but somehow there are fresh challenges for him every month.

By this point, the PC's have probably gone to some effort to train and equip their favourite henchmen. They may even have put some effort into managing their domains. Good/Bad/Neutral, one way or the other, they'd probably prefer to not experience casualties among their (demi)human resources/infrastructure.

Summoned/spawned armies explain how a powerful challenge could suddenly pour across the land. The ravaging horde should be overwhelmingly large and possess trait or traits that make them a real prick to fight. The PC's can fight them, but there's got to be a better solution.

Mass combat is a different game from D&D entirely. It should be tremendously simplified or pushed into the background in order to focus on the PC's actions.

Exploration is still fun at high level. It should not be hampered by the overuse of lead walls/teleport shields/extra-dimensional spaces. (Though it's not unfair to use these tricks to protect vaults/throne rooms/hidden secrets etc. The BBEG didn't get to CR 20+ by playing fair.)

Traveling to the Planes is too easy. I'm not against some extra-planar action, but it shouldn't be the main setting of the adventure.

 

[The1True]

is it going to be fundamentally the same as low level play, but with higher level combat challenges?

Definitely, one of my frustrations is digging through the MM looking at all these awesome monsters I'll never get to fight because they're CR 12+. So yeah, monster encounters are key here. The dungeon full of Balors is obviously exaggerated, but this is still an opportunity for some truly cinematic encounters. The technical challenge of high-level monsters leads to slower combat rounds (even in the older editions), but it's fun to employ the full toolkit of an end-game character build.

And on the other side, this is also a chance to let the PC's show their heroic stuff; wading through foes, laying waste to great swathes of enemies, shrugging off hundreds of feeble blows etc. The relative impunity gets boring fast, but it's fun to see how your abilities affect low level maggots; to feel like a god amongst men.

I think what we have to wrap our heads around here is that a high level PC is a demigod. By their nature, they are transcending reality. I think this is a particularly difficult concept for low-magic campaigns where the threats are mostly human and combat is extremely lethal. A character who strikes with superhuman speed and shrugs off weapon damage (much less a character who can topple buildings with a word) stretches that gritty reality to a breaking point. I suggest in a world such as that, the villains have risen to match the threat of these exceptional heroes. The answer to the question of where was this kingdom of demonic, undead illithids while the low-level PC's were plundering grimdark, medieval pseudo-Lombardy is; it wasn't. It has arisen as a response to the characters' meteoric ascent. The PC's godlike presence in the world has brought about apocalyptic crisis.

 

[The1True]

so what I suggest is we break things down and clearly label ideas (so we can easily come back and harvest anything worthwhile) under a couple of categories:

SOCIAL CHALLENGES: Challenges to Reputation, Rank, Relationships (business networks/powerful factions/the common people).

STRATEGIC CHALLENGES: Challenges to Resources, Infrastructure, Population, Environment, Economy.

EXPLORATORY CHALLENGES: Challenges to Movement, Discovery, Investigation, Research/Knowledge.

TACTICAL CHALLENGES: Challenges to Tactical Movement and Combat Capabilities.

ALL of these categories should include PC skills and powers that should be considered as possible foils to these challenges.

 

[squeen]

I am reminded of on of the early Moore Mircleman comic. Mircleman was a UK version of Captain Marvel (Shazam!). An agent with a gun, who knows MM's secret identity gets into an elevator with Mircleman's human identity. There's a woman with a baby in the crowded elevator, and the assassin says -- "Go ahead. Say your secret word and incinerate everyone in this elevator."

This is an example of taking higher level characters down by treachery. In the second Dune book, that's how they get Maud'dib as emporer. In the Cerebus comics, he could out fight anyone, but couldn't navigate High Society with it's political machinations.

All your strength is useless if you can't see your real enemy. --- but maybe that's more of a home-brewed campaign solution than a stand-alone adventure.

More rando thoughts:

• go to the planes --- that's why they exist. Huso agrees. That was my big revealation with the Ethereal Plane side-trip my players took. You guys loved that Planescape stuff---try making one adventure that works. Another option is deep subterranian civilizations. Those achieve the same effect.
• combat is not one big baddie, it's waves and waves (Huso).
• even at very high level (in the early editions at least) the PC's are far from invulnerable. Doubt any would even have 100-hp. It's their magic items that make them strong. Target those. Don't gimp then, have an adversary target them specifically. (steal/neutralize). Lure the wizard away and then steal his spell book. Create a counter-weapon to the fighters sword. etc. (or just dump them in a plane where they don't work---make them travel underwater!). A 20th-level fighter with only a dagger can certainly be killed (heh, gapple/overbear!!).
• I have discovered my players do not like domain play (mass combat). I'm not looking towards that as a solution to help me. In fact, I'm looking to computerize the mass combat so that it takes 15-20 minutes, while still allowing them some small amount of control/input.
• before the drow were utterly wrecked by players co-opt-ing their exotic power as a class....they were the epitome of a classy/crafty villain with HUGE resources (like the old Romulans, before they were ruined...). Very difficult to overcome a true Empire of Evil. Show up in the drow city and start blasting, and you won't last very long. Generate a situation that requires subterfuge.
• Exploration is still viable at high levels. Resource management is just one aspect of exploration. Make them work to find things.

 

[squeen]

Oh yeah. An opponent that can teleport (at will, like a demon). How is that not almost impossible to beat? They can hit you where it hurts and escape if you can't kill them with surprise.

Don't forget they can also teleport: you, your weapon, your allies, etc. during combat.

Two words: "knockout gas"

 

[The1True]

Social Challenge: It's All Fake News Folks

An adversary at court tricks PC's into using illusion or enchantment in public. Later, when the PC's try to prove the adversary's guilt in another matter he claims it's all a sham based on the PC's very public previous performance.

OR

An adversary has kompromat on the PC's. When they attempt to compel testimony from her in another matter using Zone of Truth etc. she divulges the now-incontrovertible kompromat instead.

 

[The1True]

Strategic Challenge: The Animatrix

I keep imagining this apocalyptic battle with hordes of 1st lvl maggots with ONE (to be determined) frustrating upgrade (immune to magic springs to mind) mobbed around Sz Huge living tanks (1:100 maggots) and Sz Titanic (200-300') empty-eyed, undead constructs (1:1000) stretching to the horizon, leaving behind a blackened and ruined land.

How will the PC's figure out what the most serious threat is/where there skills are most needed?
What sacrifices are they willing to make to achieve a positive outcome?
Is this a no-win or a no-fail scenario?
At what point do the PC's break off in search of the source of the trouble?

 

[The1True]

Misc. Challenge: Time

Not even walking gods are immune to the march of time. The PC's can't be everywhere; their choices to concentrate in one area of the scenario will have repercussions elsewhere, as will taking time to rest and rememorize.

 

[Malrex]

If not the planes or deep underground....how about deep underwater in the seas...?

Sure, they can have underwater gadgets and spells, but dispel magic may be able to cause some mayhem...being attacked from ALL sides can make things a little tougher. Add in water pressure, etc.
I like the idea of a major battle happening--in the background. Maybe play it like the boardgame RISK except on your own map. You roll a few dice for 5 min every hour, then switch back to the main adventure.

 

[squeen]

How about this?: a decoy battle easily designed to be disposed of using spells...plus a simultaneous attack against their stronghold while they are away. Both are fients: follow up is the true attack on the spell-caster's tower THAT NIGHT. No time to re-memorize spells.

 

[squeen]

Oh! The first stronghold attack is by a group of patsies that have never met the true baddie face-to-face, hired to do a job...etc.. The think they are suppose to steal something, but they are really there to PLANT something or some-things. The installed device allows the real threat to open a portal/teleport directly into the stronghold, spy, etc....maybe something(s) else explode to cause distractions.

I guess at its core, it's about fighting an agressive, strategic villian with deep resources. You are not battling 5 Balrogs (I don't know what a Balor is...), you are fighting a hidden Moriarty. His goal is not wealth or power --- it's just to take you down (with style).

Lures to traps. Feints. Targeting weakness. Diversions. Kidnappings. Attrition of resources. Public humiliation. Etc.

Your precious high-level PCs are gonna burn!

 

[The1True]

If not the planes or deep underground....how about deep underwater in the seas...?

I'm for all of these things just as long as we don't limit the adventure to one setting. I don't want to make an Abyss adventure or an Underdark adventure. If the PC's have to leave the world entirely to find challenge then I feel like we're failing at this exercise.

Like send the PC's to find a piece of the puzzle in a city of pure evil on another plane. They have to keep their cool or face the wrath of an entire plane.
Send the PC's to find another piece in a funeral barge sunk in the deepest trench of the ocean.

I make it sound like Rod of Seven Parts, but different pieces might be different things; information, relics, lost heroes, dead gods etc.

 

[The1True]

I don't know what a Balor is

Type VI Demon

 

[squeen]

Roger. I was feigning obstinate ignorance.

 

[The1True]

That deep sea thing sparked a total segue:

A lost island far from land. Blackened and silty and dotted with slimy, warn-down ruins. A medium ocean-going threat inhabits the desolation.
Fighting the beast triggers ancient machinery (or time just expires) and the island sinks back into the depths of the deepest trench. The PC's stay onboard because (?)
The PC's face threats at surface and pelagic depths before finally coming to rest in crushing abyssal darkness.
At which point the island's drowned inhabitants awaken...

 

[The1True]

Roger. I was feigning obstinate ignorance.

I hate calling them Balor as well. Balor is just one of their names. Ditto for all the other true demons. Product of that big mid-80's, satanic-panic wuss-out. It was super trippy reading that old Lovecraft story where the guy's black-cat familiar was called Balor...