City of Spiders
- Thread starter squeen
- Start date
A very good point I had perhaps not considered. "Meet me alone, near the hollow tree, one mile from the inn, at midnight, and thou shalt have thy reward warrior," does remain a classic.
Oh yeah I agree. I said attempt I so as to indicate the initial condition when the Giants were unalerted and you could scout around, stab some of them in their sleep, procure disguises and get the lay of things, after a while it fucking roxxx.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm going through it in a little depth (did a rough conversion of the monsters in the upper level to 4e last night) and I'm struck by how easy the encounters on the upper level are, outside of the main hall - keeping in mind that the pregen party is 9 characters with an average level of around 10-11. With a little brains and a little luck it is quite conceivable that you could not only make a serious dent the first night, but also have a decent chance of finding the upper level clue (or at least the room where it may be found).
I'm trying to imagine how I would approach this if I didn't already know what was inside. I would probably want to spend a day (and night) or two scouting it out, getting a sense of the exterior dimensions, and the dimensions of the stockaded area. I would probably end up on the roof, and maybe determine which chimneys were in use and which were not (and later be pissed off that the module doesn't call out the existence of the smoke hole in the main hall which clearly must exist one you realize there is a fire pit - the absence of which would prevent me from spying on the great hall in advance.
The main gate being fortified, the stockade is the obvious point of entry. (Note the staockade is 30' high but the adjacent buildings are only 16' high at the edges.) I would really want to throw poisoned meat to the dire wolves, but being D&D noone in the party is carrying poison, since only evil people use poison. Its probably why there are so many giant rats hanging about. I might see if the DM would allow the ranger to go off into the woods and locate poisonous plants; I suppose we would also have to have a discussion about the climbing ability of the non-thieves in the party, and who exactly could be clambering around on the roof.
I note there are three wizards capable of casting wizard eye, so a good chunk of the interior could be scouted/mapped before you tried to breach - and then when you finally did breach, you could pick an exterior room and use passwall. Although if you could poison the wolves, or find another way to kill them without having them alert the steading, you could save yourself the spell slot. Hmm, maybe on the night before you breached you could passwall the stockade, lure the wolves out, dispel the passwall, and kill them away from the steading, leaving the giants to wonder where the wolves had disappeared to.
I note that cloudkill won't work on the giants since they are all over 6 HD. Besides, I'm not seeing a practical method of sealing them into the hall; your best bet is wall of iron in the doorways (the halls are too high), but it would take four, they can't all be applied at once, and I expect the damage to the doorway would be noticed the first time you applied one (well, the second, one of the necessary doors isn't adjacent to the hall). It might be worth a shot, and then lighting the place up if you succeed, but otherwise you are probably best off resorting to guerilla/assassin tactics.
I'm trying to imagine how I would approach this if I didn't already know what was inside. I would probably want to spend a day (and night) or two scouting it out, getting a sense of the exterior dimensions, and the dimensions of the stockaded area. I would probably end up on the roof, and maybe determine which chimneys were in use and which were not (and later be pissed off that the module doesn't call out the existence of the smoke hole in the main hall which clearly must exist one you realize there is a fire pit - the absence of which would prevent me from spying on the great hall in advance.
The main gate being fortified, the stockade is the obvious point of entry. (Note the staockade is 30' high but the adjacent buildings are only 16' high at the edges.) I would really want to throw poisoned meat to the dire wolves, but being D&D noone in the party is carrying poison, since only evil people use poison. Its probably why there are so many giant rats hanging about. I might see if the DM would allow the ranger to go off into the woods and locate poisonous plants; I suppose we would also have to have a discussion about the climbing ability of the non-thieves in the party, and who exactly could be clambering around on the roof.
I note there are three wizards capable of casting wizard eye, so a good chunk of the interior could be scouted/mapped before you tried to breach - and then when you finally did breach, you could pick an exterior room and use passwall. Although if you could poison the wolves, or find another way to kill them without having them alert the steading, you could save yourself the spell slot. Hmm, maybe on the night before you breached you could passwall the stockade, lure the wolves out, dispel the passwall, and kill them away from the steading, leaving the giants to wonder where the wolves had disappeared to.
I note that cloudkill won't work on the giants since they are all over 6 HD. Besides, I'm not seeing a practical method of sealing them into the hall; your best bet is wall of iron in the doorways (the halls are too high), but it would take four, they can't all be applied at once, and I expect the damage to the doorway would be noticed the first time you applied one (well, the second, one of the necessary doors isn't adjacent to the hall). It might be worth a shot, and then lighting the place up if you succeed, but otherwise you are probably best off resorting to guerilla/assassin tactics.
I like this idea. Perhaps liberal use of the Charm Animal spell might be employed to use some of them against the Giants, though it should be taken into account the fortress has a tower and the giant presumably has Infravision (I recall some edition of D&D has all monsters have it).
You are correct. I mistook Cloudkill for its 2e version, which deals d10 damage per round to creatures above 6 HD. However, Hold Portal and Wizard Lock could suffice for effectively barring the doors. They could break it down but this would take a turn (as opposed to merely stuck doors, which can be opened within a round with a high roll). I notice how much harder that encounter is to solve with 1e's limited spell palette. 2e Conjure Elementals blanket immunity to weapons of +2 or below would have allowed one to crater through that encounter, even if Cloudkill alone had not done the trick. Some combination of Fireball/Stinking Cloud and creating a bottleneck MAYBE works, with the cleric on the second rank running interference and only two giant attacks per round against the front row?
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
No druid in the party, so most animal related spells are not available. Charm monster might work, but any that made their save would probably start howling.
Not sure it takes a turn to open a door in 1e, Gygax refers to it as force being used "to switfy operate it." (DMG p. 97) But even a turn isn't very long, I expect that would give them plenty of time to escape. Although if might slow them down enough to cast a few walls of iron into the doorjams, which I think would work.
Not sure it takes a turn to open a door in 1e, Gygax refers to it as force being used "to switfy operate it." (DMG p. 97) But even a turn isn't very long, I expect that would give them plenty of time to escape. Although if might slow them down enough to cast a few walls of iron into the doorjams, which I think would work.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I always assumed 1 round to open a stuck door (with a successful str check). DMG p.97 says 1 turn for bashing one down (incures 3 random monster checks).
See @Beoric...the 1e DMG is wonderful!
My group is planning on playing this weekend. The party is returning (slowly) with a victorious army in tow. All this talk about G1 has me thinking I'll have the Hill Giants (whose troops they by-passed previously) take out the Dragonshead Ford, forcing a detour north through the Fens. I'm thinking now might be a good time to shove The Steadying in the way---requiring the party to trail blaze.
I also have a clear mental picture of a merging of two rivers and the ruins of two ancient towers (called unimaginatively "The Twins") at some sort of crossing. I'm not sure what's in there---probably maybe more Giants staging for war...whom/what else?? That's the follow-up to the Steadying.
There are (known) Frost Giants even further north, supposedly penned in their frozen mountain cirque by the great iron fortress of Utgard. But, the black-bearded dwarves jailors have become less vigilant/reliable. Once grateful to the humans for freeing them from the giants in the last war, their twisted hearts have slow been reverting to form and and they've begun making deals with the chaotic powers-that-be. It could be a small revelation that the Realm's ancient enemy has regrown and escaped it's shackles.
The Hill Giants in the Steadying would then just be an appetizer for the larger war to come. I see the Frost Giants much more like the titans of Greek or Norse mythology, and the hill giants as cloddish late-age descendants.
Using G1 will buy me some more time to prepare my mass combat aids---plus, it's a chance for my players to experience a classic module.
I hope they take the bait. Getting the hook right is going to be tough. Any thoughts?
See @Beoric...the 1e DMG is wonderful!
My group is planning on playing this weekend. The party is returning (slowly) with a victorious army in tow. All this talk about G1 has me thinking I'll have the Hill Giants (whose troops they by-passed previously) take out the Dragonshead Ford, forcing a detour north through the Fens. I'm thinking now might be a good time to shove The Steadying in the way---requiring the party to trail blaze.
I also have a clear mental picture of a merging of two rivers and the ruins of two ancient towers (called unimaginatively "The Twins") at some sort of crossing. I'm not sure what's in there---probably maybe more Giants staging for war...whom/what else?? That's the follow-up to the Steadying.
There are (known) Frost Giants even further north, supposedly penned in their frozen mountain cirque by the great iron fortress of Utgard. But, the black-bearded dwarves jailors have become less vigilant/reliable. Once grateful to the humans for freeing them from the giants in the last war, their twisted hearts have slow been reverting to form and and they've begun making deals with the chaotic powers-that-be. It could be a small revelation that the Realm's ancient enemy has regrown and escaped it's shackles.
The Hill Giants in the Steadying would then just be an appetizer for the larger war to come. I see the Frost Giants much more like the titans of Greek or Norse mythology, and the hill giants as cloddish late-age descendants.
Using G1 will buy me some more time to prepare my mass combat aids---plus, it's a chance for my players to experience a classic module.
I hope they take the bait. Getting the hook right is going to be tough. Any thoughts?
Last edited:
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Got Giants on my brain.
This evening's quick-sketch with a very dull pencil:
The Ogre and the Nymph
Seems Greek Fable-like---but, really it's any excuse to practice muscle-placement on a figure.
Meh.
She's got some movement, but he's standing a little stiff (no pun intended).
EDIT: Maybe it just looks that way to me, but it reminds me of a too-close photo of two D&D figurines. I wonder why...dorky pose plus a monotoned blurry background? (added some fog)
This evening's quick-sketch with a very dull pencil:
The Ogre and the Nymph
Seems Greek Fable-like---but, really it's any excuse to practice muscle-placement on a figure.
Meh.
She's got some movement, but he's standing a little stiff (no pun intended).
EDIT: Maybe it just looks that way to me, but it reminds me of a too-close photo of two D&D figurines. I wonder why...dorky pose plus a monotoned blurry background? (added some fog)
Last edited:
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Right, no point in actually stating the time for a door that is only stuck, or using a table of times like the one used for searches at the top of the page. Or even <gasp> including them all on one easy-to-find table, since they are already on the same page.
jk, I love the DMG, just not its organization. Or initiative rules.
I also assumed forcing a stuck door took a round.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
It's one of those little considerations that only matter to purist rules-lawyers anyways, I think.
What's more egregious in a game:
1) it takes X-number of rounds to open the stuck door; or
2) The time to open the door doesn't match the sub-rule nestled inside the DM-only guidelines?
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Well, it matters in the case of this discussion because you want to know how long the giants will be trapped. They are the ones making the check.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Why would giants take the same amount of time as humans to breach a stuck wooden door?
Why not have "giants will burst through door, attacking all" and leave the timing to when it would fit naturally for the DM to inject an encounter?
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Well, it's a giant sized door made by giants to survive daily wear and tear by giants. Which has been held and wizard locked. AND it relates to a specific plan to burn the giants in the G1 module; the PCs have already initiated an encounter by sealing them in and setting the place on fire.
I wouldn't say so. That is better, but the bigger problem is the placement of her left leg in relation to her keister.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
@Beoric: So right! You'd think I'd never seen a human being before. Thanks.
Just proves again these important truths:
1) there is no substitutes for a fresh set of eyes
2) legs are my nemesis
3) art is only as good as its worst element
The situation is easily correctable in this era of digital art...but doing so reveals the lie of the "quick sketch"---art wants to be fixed...endlessly. I'm not sure where you learn more: in the first attempt or all the subsequent corrections?
One last try, then I resolve to walk away. The composition is not worth more of anyone's time.
Moved the leg and shrunk the Nymph too...nows he's looking more gigantic, me thinks.
Ugh. A Marvel artist once said that you should take the time to learn to draw hands...most people have two.
Applies to legs and arms in my case (as well)...but at least he's not a bubble-man!
Just proves again these important truths:
1) there is no substitutes for a fresh set of eyes
2) legs are my nemesis
3) art is only as good as its worst element
The situation is easily correctable in this era of digital art...but doing so reveals the lie of the "quick sketch"---art wants to be fixed...endlessly. I'm not sure where you learn more: in the first attempt or all the subsequent corrections?
One last try, then I resolve to walk away. The composition is not worth more of anyone's time.
Moved the leg and shrunk the Nymph too...nows he's looking more gigantic, me thinks.
Ugh. A Marvel artist once said that you should take the time to learn to draw hands...most people have two.
Applies to legs and arms in my case (as well)...but at least he's not a bubble-man!
Last edited:
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I think you are right again. There is too much separation between the characters now. In order for him to appear threatening, he needs to invade her personal space.
Sometimes, when you mess around too much digitally you lose some of the original charm and texture of the pencil work. I try to keep a series of copies for undo's (just in case)...but one of the fears I have to overcome with art is the fear of making it worse but erasing and trying again. I'd guess 75% of the time it does get better if you put some more work into a particular aspect. As a student of figure drawing, everything I produce is throw away---I shouldn't hesitate to experiment (and fail).
The original sketch was me toying with (the giant's) stance---which has since been obscured in mist! The nymph was an afterthought---shoving something into the space before his grasping hand. Unsatisfied with the static appearance of the giant's pose, I pushed her movement up a few notches (which I liked...especially the hair). Still, if I were to redo it again---with a final scene clearly in mind---I think the viewpoint and placement of characters could be much better (more dynamic).
Oh well. I have no more time for this. The pros recommend quick-sketch as a means for iterative improvement...but it's getting to the point were I am afraid to scribble anything for fear of wanting to tinker with it far beyond the time slot I had available. Hopefully, some lesson has been internalized by this little exercise (like the enigma of the female pelvis!). And I really do appreciate your feedback and help.
Sometimes, when you mess around too much digitally you lose some of the original charm and texture of the pencil work. I try to keep a series of copies for undo's (just in case)...but one of the fears I have to overcome with art is the fear of making it worse but erasing and trying again. I'd guess 75% of the time it does get better if you put some more work into a particular aspect. As a student of figure drawing, everything I produce is throw away---I shouldn't hesitate to experiment (and fail).
The original sketch was me toying with (the giant's) stance---which has since been obscured in mist! The nymph was an afterthought---shoving something into the space before his grasping hand. Unsatisfied with the static appearance of the giant's pose, I pushed her movement up a few notches (which I liked...especially the hair). Still, if I were to redo it again---with a final scene clearly in mind---I think the viewpoint and placement of characters could be much better (more dynamic).
Oh well. I have no more time for this. The pros recommend quick-sketch as a means for iterative improvement...but it's getting to the point were I am afraid to scribble anything for fear of wanting to tinker with it far beyond the time slot I had available. Hopefully, some lesson has been internalized by this little exercise (like the enigma of the female pelvis!). And I really do appreciate your feedback and help.
Last edited:
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Aw poop! I couldn't resist. I made her a bit bigger/closer (split the difference).
FINAL VERSION!
(...and I always like looking back at the original photo of the 10-minute pencil-sketch to see how it morphed.)
If I were to get serious for a moment, I'd draw a meaningful analogy here to Adventure Design.
Stopping at the pencils, without going through the monotonous, time-consuming, and far-less-fun (!) clean-up process is like publishing your adventure without serious editing or play-testing.
There is a noticeable difference in quality.
@bryce0lynch : I hear-by donate this art-analogy (before/after) examplar to your future book. Let me know if you want a hires (or better) version. It goes without saying you should feel free to decline too if it's not your cup of tea.
FINAL VERSION!
(...and I always like looking back at the original photo of the 10-minute pencil-sketch to see how it morphed.)
If I were to get serious for a moment, I'd draw a meaningful analogy here to Adventure Design.
Stopping at the pencils, without going through the monotonous, time-consuming, and far-less-fun (!) clean-up process is like publishing your adventure without serious editing or play-testing.
There is a noticeable difference in quality.
@bryce0lynch : I hear-by donate this art-analogy (before/after) examplar to your future book. Let me know if you want a hires (or better) version. It goes without saying you should feel free to decline too if it's not your cup of tea.
Last edited:
It's organized terribly, but eventually I managed to discern that opening a stuck door takes a round, but opening a locked door by either picking it or battering it down takes a turn, so 10 combat rounds. 10 rounds affords one enough time to unload the multiple fireball spells that would be required to annihilate the buggers.
The original Giants from the Edda were always more akin to Demons or Gods then just big, stupid assholes. Thialfi or Utgard Loki could shapechange, wield illusions and commanded all manner of terrible creatures, and the race of the Giants also descends from Ymir. And that's excluding Surt, who is older and more terrible then the gods. But yeah, Frost Giants are pretty dope. I'm reading G2 now.
Looks good.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
This is where I want to get back to for the Giants for my home campaign. I like the myths where one of the gods is fooled by the magic of a shape changing giant while a guest at his house, or challenged to an impossible wrestling contest where the giant cheats.
Giants painted generally as beings of enchantment, left over from the first-age of the world---angry that humans and the New Gods have surplanted their domiance of the Earth.
Good news! I got my players to take the hook.
We are going to The Steadying!
(...unless they change their minds half-way)
I haven't got time for a complete post---one to expunging all the thoughts swirling in my head...I am going to start a separate thread later this week to get it all out (and make a DM's confessional to my peers for some Sandbox Crimes).
But since I am not very good at containing enthusiasm, here's a sneak peek at a map I whipped up yesterday evening before the game using the same methods I've been using for figure drawings (i.e. pencil quick-sketch -> phone-photo -> GIMP).
Call it "G0", a prelude to G1(intend to be shared, used and abused). More later on this later.
It feels good, like I'm off to the races!
Work In Progress:
Last edited:
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I think I am going to bend the ravine leading to the Spire of Iron and Crystal (an early Matt Finch dungeon I want my players to notice) around to the east a bit more...I'm also on the fence a bit about what style to draw the mountains (more on that some other time). Lastly, I got massively lazy (compounded with uncertainty about the approach), and didn't put in all the Gnarlwood trees yet---still...I used to dread forests, but this style is super, super, easy and I'm reasonably happy with it --- especially how the Jarlwood came out. Dunno why that one in particular looks best to my eye...maybe there's a serendipitous lesson hidden in there---tops of tree reflecting more light? loose interior subsections? Something to toy with going forward...
The primary colors are giving me a serious Mike Schley vibe---and I've not always been a great fan of his (outdoor) products. Sometimes they are too busy to my eye. I'm thinking of this one in particular, but here's another from his web site. Still, a pretty (vs. strictly functional) map gets my creative juices going.
This maps is 2520 square-miles or 1/12th the size of Scotland. If I doubled the scale---to the standard 6-miles hexes---it would be 1/3 the areas of Scotland. Here it is again, roughly marked on my original outdoor campaign map (circa 2015---needs updating!) that I posted previously in another thread. The Fens were previously Terra incognito---most the adventuring was to the south or west.
Something to ponder about size. Clearly, since this is only about 1/4 the continental world-map, the totality must surely be on the scale of Western Europe. Would one want to quadrupedal that? I constantly agonize about scale/travel-times.
Lastly, I am on the fence about hex-style too. Poop. Truth is, I've got so much I'd like to discuss: a community collaboration opportunity, color intensity as a travel difficulty/topographic indicator, map classifications, satellite-photo vs. perspective, wilderness barriers as pseudo-dunegon, play-testing-by-wire, mass combat, etc.
Never enough time.
Next thread? Next week? Next life?
In other news...
All that color mapping got me wondering if anything is gained/lost by painting over the sketch in GIMP's color-layer instead of the cepia-wash I've been using. WARNING: I am color-blind/stupid which is why I feel more comfortable in B&W. Heck, these many not even be proper flesh tones.
My conclusion: I am not good colorist or painter. This looks like I used colored pencils. Clearly not the proper way to digitally paint.
The primary colors are giving me a serious Mike Schley vibe---and I've not always been a great fan of his (outdoor) products. Sometimes they are too busy to my eye. I'm thinking of this one in particular, but here's another from his web site. Still, a pretty (vs. strictly functional) map gets my creative juices going.
This maps is 2520 square-miles or 1/12th the size of Scotland. If I doubled the scale---to the standard 6-miles hexes---it would be 1/3 the areas of Scotland. Here it is again, roughly marked on my original outdoor campaign map (circa 2015---needs updating!) that I posted previously in another thread. The Fens were previously Terra incognito---most the adventuring was to the south or west.
Something to ponder about size. Clearly, since this is only about 1/4 the continental world-map, the totality must surely be on the scale of Western Europe. Would one want to quadrupedal that? I constantly agonize about scale/travel-times.
Lastly, I am on the fence about hex-style too. Poop. Truth is, I've got so much I'd like to discuss: a community collaboration opportunity, color intensity as a travel difficulty/topographic indicator, map classifications, satellite-photo vs. perspective, wilderness barriers as pseudo-dunegon, play-testing-by-wire, mass combat, etc.
Never enough time.
Next thread? Next week? Next life?
In other news...
All that color mapping got me wondering if anything is gained/lost by painting over the sketch in GIMP's color-layer instead of the cepia-wash I've been using. WARNING: I am color-blind/stupid which is why I feel more comfortable in B&W. Heck, these many not even be proper flesh tones.
My conclusion: I am not good colorist or painter. This looks like I used colored pencils. Clearly not the proper way to digitally paint.
Last edited: