City of Spiders

[squeen]

Over at Greyhawk Grognardia, Joseph Block has released a Fan-Fic expansion to D3 (Vault of the Drow) called D4 City of Spiders.

Joseph has posted several fascinating (to me) articles on his blog over the years trying to reconcile Gygax's original vision for T1-T4 with the G/D/Q series. He had an "aha!" moment last year, and this is the result. I haven't made it through everything yet, and some might be put-off by it's retro-design (even font!), but I think it's a valuable addition to the classic. The whole notion of the Elder Elemental God in a lost lower-level of the Temple of Elemental Evil---it's relationship to the rebel faction of Drow in the Giant series, and the mis-handling of both Q1 by Sutherland and T4 by Metzner (as well as apparent misdirection of Lloth as the party's "final enemy" in D3) is a whole lot of fun to excavate.

I wonder if Byrce would review this to shed some light (attention) on this fun fan-puzzle.

Check it out. It's free.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Oof, this bears a lot of usability issues (in fairness, it was a universal problem of old modules, from a time before best practices were adopted).

5 pages for an inn? So much extraneous detail given. As Bryce would say "we all know what's in a kitchen"... errr... an inn.
Does every single possible thing on a menu need listing (what's wrong with a sentence or two like "Meals range from plain to opulent, 6cp to 2gp in price. Spirits range from cheap giant-made gin to expensive drow wines."?). And anytime I see things like "See D3 VAULT OF THE DROW for details on encounter make-up (pp. 4-5 and 16)" alarm bells start to go off (cool, now I've got to involve a whole extra document in the process...)

This whole thing looks like it needs major highlighter treatment before it can be used (like most adventures of the era). I guess it does it's job in capturing the "old school feels", but honestly, is that really the main objective of OSR adventures? To just feel old? What happened to fun, easy-flowing play?

Ah who am I even talking to? I'm pretty sure I'm on squeen's ignore list - not that I could ever change his mind once he's formed an opinion anyway.

 

[Beoric]

Oof, this bears a lot of usability issues (in fairness, it was a universal problem of old modules, from a time before best practices were adopted).

5 pages for an inn? So much extraneous detail given. As Bryce would say "we all know what's in a kitchen"... errr... an inn.
Does every single possible thing on a menu need listing (what's wrong with a sentence or two like "Meals range from plain to opulent, 6cp to 2gp in price. Spirits range from cheap giant-made gin to expensive drow wines."?).

Bloch's site is mostly about slavish adherence to [his definition of] the old ways, so one shouldn't be surprised. I love his navel-gazing into the hidden meaning behind modules that were likely just thrown together to play and then cleaned up when they needed something to sell, but stopped following it a while back when he was posting more about his brand of politics than about actual gaming. I wonder if its safe to go back yet.

 

[squeen]

The "navel gazing" on ToEE was indeed the best. He's switched a lot of his posts to videos...meh. I don't love the format and style of his D4 --- would love to help him update and expand it even further. Maybe if I ever elevate my artistic chops sufficiently, I'll offer him some free artwork to include.

But seriously, I like a good mystery, and it's pretty cool that he's done this. The culmination of a lot of detective work over the years.

Makes me want to get off my duff and do something...

Hats off to Joe!

 

[rredmond]

Haven’t read it yet, but looking forward to it. Your artwork would be a good match for any old school product squeen.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

I like the mean girls kvetching this attempt at sharing enthusiasm for someone's fan product has provoked from some of you. Look at em all, I bet you could dance much better then Bloch if only you would get a chance.

That being said, does anyone know of a fan-sequel that is actually any good? Many Gates of the Gann or Hyqu ieous Vaults are fine examples of capturing the spirit and practice of old modules to make something new? Jeff Sparks's homage to B1 left a sour taste in the mouth for one.

 

[Beoric]

There was an alternate Q1 that Bryce reviewed that I quite liked. And Bloch's expansion of G1 was ok.

Not a fan-sequel, but I picked up Goodman Games' 5e conversion of B1 & B2 and am working my way through it. Plan to start running it over the holidays, if I can get any time off work. I have to say its pretty ballsy to include two copies of the originals with your rewrite and expansion, so that there is a readily available comparison.

Finished reading the conversion of B1. Mostly it includes the same text as the original, somewhat reordered. The reordering generally improves readability, but it would have improved it a while lot more if they had done the hard edit that B1 seriously needs. So far the new material varies between meh and poorly considered. Pretty sure they have never seen an arrow loop up close, since they seem to think a gnome or hobbit could squeeze through one.

 

[The1True]

I'd like to see a fan follow-up to S3...

 

[Beoric]

I'd like to see a fan follow-up to S3...

There will be new material in GG's conversion of S3 to 5e. May not be worth the sticker price just for that, though...

Have you seen Dyson's redraw of the maps, which he is undertaking again?

 

[rredmond]

Have you seen Dyson's redraw of the maps, which he is undertaking again?

Looks good. I think (once my Skype crew gets that far) I'm going to pop those circular-ish maps in a version of the USS Enterprise. Gonna be fun.

 

[Evard's Small Tentacle]

I find it a strange notion that a society living under the earth are pretty much the Sam’s culturally, architecturally and otherwise as surface societies (inns with food and wine?). Very much like Patrick Stuart’s take on the drow and the underdark for my campaign. The PCs are scared shitless by the alieness.

 

[squeen]

Bloch is not the creative visionary Stuart is, but what this product does is try to "fix" the inconsistencies that connect the T1-T4 with the G1-Q1 series and restore more of Gygax's original vision. That was the genesis.

Add to that the fact the D3, as written, did not suggest the proper play-style (i.e. reconnaissance in the Drow City and political intrigue) necessary to put all the puzzle pieces together.

I don't own Veins of the Earth, but have enjoyed the pieces I've peeked at. Does it translate well into something that is playable?

The D-series modules are definitely playable, and when originally written, were as wildly radical a concept as much of Patrick's stuff. The long chain of connections between the Elder Elemental God (trapped outside the world), Lolth Demon Queen of Spiders, the dark elves living in an underground city---ruled by women, and a rebel house trying to usurp power from the priesthood by aligning themselves with a banished God. .... this is heady stuff!

It's some of the best conceptual material ever produced by the hobby. Something ORIGINAL and not a Tolkien rehash---miles above any of the banal Hickman rubbish.

We were discussing in the "best non-dungeons" thread that the good published material tends to cover certain play elements well (e.g. the dungeon crawl) and struggles with others. This is a city---but a wonderful one that (like Beoric says is impossible for a normal city) has insane danger lurking around every corner and can be treated like a dungeon. Such fertile ground!

That why this topic is so fun to contemplate and toy with. Despite it's solid foundations, like much of Gygax's work it's an unpolished gem. That's why I am so pleased that Bloch has taken a crack at it. His theories on reconciling the disparate parts of 8(!) classic modules are the best I've heard thus far, but I don't think this book is closed.

This is the White Whale of Gygax's legacy.

 

[The1True]

Have you seen Dyson's redraw of the maps

I have indeed. Pretty cool the triangular hull concept.

 

[Evard's Small Tentacle]

Bloch is not the creative visionary Stuart is, but what this product does is try to "fix" the inconsistencies that connect the T1-T4 with the G1-Q1 series and restore more of Gygax's original vision. That was the genesis.

Add to that the fact the D3, as written, did not suggest the proper play-style (i.e. reconnaissance in the Drow City and political intrigue) necessary to put all the puzzle pieces together.

I don't own Veins of the Earth, but have enjoyed the pieces I've peeked at. Does it translate well into something that is playable?

The D-series modules are definitely playable, and when originally written, were as wildly radical a concept as much of Patrick's stuff. The long chain of connections between the Elder Elemental God (trapped outside the world), Lolth Demon Queen of Spiders, the dark elves living in an underground city---ruled by women, and a rebel house trying to usurp power from the priesthood by aligning themselves with a banished God. .... this is heady stuff!

It's some of the best conceptual material ever produced by the hobby. Something ORIGINAL and not a Tolkien rehash---miles above any of the banal Hickman rubbish.

We were discussing in the "best non-dungeons" thread that the good published material tends to cover certain play elements well (e.g. the dungeon crawl) and struggles with others. This is a city---but a wonderful one that (like Beoric says is impossible for a normal city) has insane danger lurking around every corner and can be treated like a dungeon. Such fertile ground!

That why this topic is so fun to contemplate and toy with. Despite it's solid foundations, like much of Gygax's work, it's an unpolished gem. That's why I am so pleased that Bloch has taken a crack at it. His theories on reconciling the disparate parts of 8(!) classic modules are the best I've heard thus far, but I don't think this book is closed.

This is the White Whale of Gygax's legacy.

Completely agree here. I think Gary ran into the Martin syndrome of not really knowing where to go with things and to tie all the easter eggs he planted throughout, and to run the D series as written is not plausible. I am glad that Bloch and others are taking a crack at it as well, and am sure it is a worthwhile exercise to read through at least. I have picked up Queen of Spiders a few times thinking of running it, but put it down due to it's fatal flaws (and the grindy nature of Against the Giants which is just one long combat slog fest and only has one way to play it out, though the tactical elements are good).

Veins of the Earth is very inspired; elements of it i would grock, and the monsters are inspired as always. His take on the drow (it's somewhere in his blog posts) are totally inspired and named changed to the Aelf-Adal. Some of his concepts are a bit above my imagination (i.e., light as a living thing, and currency) and hard to reconcile at times when you are used to a normative fantasy paradigm.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Veins of the Earth is very inspired; elements of it i would grock, and the monsters are inspired as always. His take on the drow (it's somewhere in his blog posts) are totally inspired and named changed to the Aelf-Adal. Some of his concepts are a bit above my imagination (i.e., light as a living thing, and currency) and hard to reconcile at times when you are used to a normative fantasy paradigm.

The Veins bestiary is brilliant but everything after that came across as kind of meh. Light as currency was a great idea but its implementation left something to be desired, and the darkness as a living thing was just interesting fluff.

I have picked up Queen of Spiders a few times thinking of running it, but put it down due to it's fatal flaws (and the grindy nature of Against the Giants which is just one long combat slog fest and only has one way to play it out, though the tactical elements are good).

Isn't there at least at the beginning, a sort of infiltration-commando style component to G1 that renders it immune from these charges?

 

[squeen]

Isn't there at least at the beginning, a sort of infiltration-commando style component to G1 that at least renders it immune from these charges?

I concur.

Also, @PrinceofNothing I enjoyed you Veins review.

 

[Evard's Small Tentacle]

Those are the tactical elements I mentioned. It can be fun, but once you get into the teleport, here is a cave for you to have as a home base, kill more (type) giants and free prisoners dynamic, it starts to become very grindy the deeper you go into G2 and G3. Having factions and creating a more dynamic and active environment is definitely needed.

Agree on Veins. I also am not a fan of Scrap Princess’s art as it doesn’t really help me conceptualize like I think art for gaming products should (just a personal preference).

Check out Journey to the Center of the Aereth and Lost City of Barako for DCC by Harley Stroh for a couple of my more recent favorite takes on the Underdark.

 

[squeen]

Lost City of Barako preview looks slick!

 

[Beoric]

Those are the tactical elements I mentioned. It can be fun, but once you get into the teleport, here is a cave for you to have as a home base, kill more (type) giants and free prisoners dynamic, it starts to become very grindy the deeper you go into G2 and G3. Having factions and creating a more dynamic and active environment is definitely needed.

Agree on Veins. I also am not a fan of Scrap Princess’s art as it doesn’t really help me conceptualize like I think art for gaming products should (just a personal preference).

Check out Journey to the Center of the Aereth and Lost City of Barako for DCC by Harley Stroh for a couple of my more recent favorite takes on the Underdark.

I thought the standard tactic for G1 was to seal the doors of the great hall and light it on fire.

 

[squeen]

I thought the standard tactic for G1 was to seal the doors of the great hall and light it on fire.

No, it's pretty specific about the lodge being too wet to ignite.