Ask Melan

[squeen]

When I was a player, we went through magic items fairly regularly. In certain dungeons it was easy come, easy go. But at all times, things got wrecked whether you used them up or squirreled them away. It was rare you got a leg-up on the world and it stayed that way. We constantly felt like the underdogs...and I loved it.

I've tried to impress this upon my players: Things break...and they are there to be used.

@The1True : I think you'd hate my dungeons, even though I can be a push-over. By design, at least, things are not supposed to go the player's way entirely---even though they still mostly "win", there's always (suppose to be) a cost. You are always intended to be 40% frustrated as aplayer. For a 9th level spell, that Disjunction sound appropriate. No worse than a wish. (If 9th level magic is uber-rare, of course). Set-backs should, IMO, be common.

 

[The1True]

It's a crappy spell because only a maniac PC will ever use it. That's your LOOT you're destroying. Unless you absolutely know that most of your opponent's equipment is unusable, evil-aligned or cursed, there's no return on hitting him with a disjunction.

Meanwhile on the PC side, even with easy-come, easy-go, you're going to have a favourite sword or trusty wand that's gotten you through more than a few levels. One of those low-enchantment items with a really neat utility effect or a little bit of character to it that has rendered it indispensable for much longer than the usual lifespan of a magic item.
Or if you're at the end of a crawl hauling an absolute bagful of magical loot back to civilization? It's catastrophic. That would be a key example actually, of a DM failing to exercise fiat.

 

[squeen]

Agreed. I would need to go back to Unearthed Arcana and re-read the spell. I would probably limit it's strength, and after X-levels of energy were negated, it would poop out. That way the PC would have a chance to be left with something.

Magic items do have a nasty way of accumulating.

That said, all my favorite PC items blew up eventually...and so did the PCs! Nobody ever made it out to pasture.

 

[Beoric]

I believe each item gets a save (which can be tedious for a high level party). I think it was the same at dispel magic in 1e, so base 50% chance for each item, excluding artifacts. Basically a "lose half your magic items" spell.

Not expressly called out, but as described, and as spellbooks are described, it probably apples to spellbooks. Now that's a real ouch!

 

[The1True]

it probably apples to spellbooks. Now that's a real ouch!

That'd be a table-flipper for sure.

 

[squeen]

Bringing spellbook along with you on an adventure was a BIG no-no for us. Almost always they went up in flames. I learned pretty quickly not to do that---build a wizard's tower for your library and cast all those protective wards...it doesn't belong on your back!

It was the high-level wizard's Achilles's Heel.

@Beoric : AD&D has dispel magic only last a round! ...but that's not how we played it. It also tended to scramble magic items powers.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

I mean, item saving throws alone mean that a punch from a fire giant, or a fireball from an 8th-level NPC wizard could cost you your spellbook, magic armour or plenty of other well-loved treasures just as easily as that 9th-level spell, right?

 

[PrinceofNothing]

A thousand thousand times worse than that though is the dreaded Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Fuck that NPC spell and fuck the DM who thinks it's no big deal to whip it out.

How many 17th level Wizards do y'all run into in your DnD games on an average day?

 

[EOTB]

Are we playing in the Forgotten Realms?

 

[Beoric]

@Beoric : AD&D has dispel magic only last a round! ...but that's not how we played it. It also tended to scramble magic items powers.

No, I meant the save was the same as dispel magic.

Are we playing in the Forgotten Realms?

Elminster eats 17th level wizards for breakfast.

 

[squeen]

No, I meant the save was the same as dispel magic.

Yes. I understood what you were saying, I was just blathering on a tangent.

With regards to 17th wizards and all that, I think there is an undercurrent to the joking. The notion that if you don't keep tight reins on your campaign it does tend to drift into the absurd---although I appreciate some folks feel constrained by that, preferring a more gonzo experience. To each his own, but be aware that the latter burns twice as bright, for only half as long.

Right now my players are holding on to effectively four of the artifact-class magic items in the world---three of which have definite expiration dates in which to be returned/forfeited (one is a bag of holding they just obtained...with it's own strings attached). They are trying to get as much mileage in terms of moving the world's levers as possible, but know the clock is ticking. I bring this up because as a DM I see how incredibly difficult it can be to challenge them with so many options at their disposal. From all those years of being under-powered pip-squeaks, they play a very cautions and team-organized game, so while they are only 8th level discovered magic inflates that a lot. I think item saving throws, negation, etc. are essential game elements to keep things balanced for the long-game.

Mom and Apple Pie. I know.

 

[The1True]

How many 17th level Wizards do y'all run into in your DnD games on an average day?

A surprisingly large amount. As mentioned in the past; all our campaigns tend to make it to epic level. We're lvl 19 in our current one. I've weathered two Disjunctions in the last year alone.

 

[The1True]

Mom and Apple Pie. I know.

Hey man, I don't hate this. You do you and all that! I think it could be a lot of fun - although as stated exhaustively in the past, I do have reservations about character limitations and DM-as-god which I think you might maybe might have a lot harder time pulling off with veteran adult players. I could be wrong.

I think what's happening is that for a lot of us, if we put an easy 80 hrs into the latest Baldur's game or whatever, we'll end up with a fully tricked out, epic-level, monster OP character and there's very little the AI can do to stop it from happening. A lot of those expectations, including planning out the character's level progression gets brought to the table. Unless we're total turds, we're going to accept the DM's campaign limitations but there's going to be pushback if the interference is too much.

Basically, Players shouldn't be allowed to break the DM's campaign with min/maxing and setting-inappropriate classes/races, however the DM should be doing what he can to not stifle the players' creativity in the process.

We've tried to start at least three medieval-vanilla campaigns in the last 8 years. They've all ended up, not monty hall, but definitely full 3e magi-tech gonzo. I guess I could blame the edition at this point. The extra features just creep in. You say "okay, only PHB races, classes, feats, equipment etc" and it's all good except for that one guy who can't stand being a basic bitch race, so fine, he's an aasimar or a half-ogre or something. Moving on. Then someone else wants that one spell or feat from one of the splat books. It should've been in the PHB to begin with really... And so it snowballs. In this latest campaign, I got sick of the weak-ass magic items, so I started crafting my own. Found some beardy workaround for XP expenditure and now I sell everything I get because it's not nearly as cool or class-specific as what I can build myself. I know that's been pissing the DM off, but I'll fight (and have fought) to the death to defend it. I guess that's just how we like the game. Pretty sure we're not alone.

 

[Beoric]

Yes. I understood what you were saying, I was just blathering on a tangent.

With regards to 17th wizards and all that, I think there is an undercurrent to the joking. The notion that if you don't keep tight reins on your campaign it does tend to drift into the absurd---although I appreciate some folks feel constrained by that, preferring a more gonzo experience. To each his own, but be aware that the latter burns twice as bright, for only half as long.

Right now my players are holding on to effectively four of the artifact-class magic items in the world---three of which have definite expiration dates in which to be returned/forfeited (one is a bag of holding they just obtained...with it's own strings attached). They are trying to get as much mileage in terms of moving the world's levers as possible, but know the clock is ticking. I bring this up because as a DM I see how incredibly difficult it can be to challenge them with so many options at their disposal. From all those years of being under-powered pip-squeaks, they play a very cautions and team-organized game, so while they are only 8th level discovered magic inflates that a lot. I think item saving throws, negation, etc. are essential game elements to keep things balanced for the long-game.

Mom and Apple Pie. I know.

I have never run a high level campaign, but in my teens and 20s I was in a few that went over 20. I don't recall that the DMs ever had trouble keeping them challenging. In fact, I remember it getting more challenging, because those high level wizards could do all of the things the party could do, perhaps aided by a little unintentional DM omniscience. They did become much less dungeons-and-monsters campaigns, and much more castles-and-NPCs campaigns.

We've tried to start at least three medieval-vanilla campaigns in the last 8 years. They've all ended up, not monty hall, but definitely full 3e magi-tech gonzo. I guess I could blame the edition at this point.

All our high level campaigns started out as vanilla 1e campaigns. If you go long enough and just follow the treasure tables in the DMG, it tends to happen. And no amount of treasure stinginess or contriving to destroy items will address the existence of higher level spells.

 

[squeen]

@The1True : I don't think you are alone, and it has taken me awhile to realize that you want a different experience from D&D. I don't mean this as an insult, but I am convince you'd hate the game I DM. Seriously. You'd hate it!

Similarly, I am almost entirely a strategy game player on the computer, really never an character-centeric RPGist (except for Nox Archrist!).

 

[The1True]

but I am convince you'd hate the game I DM.

If it makes you feel any better; you'd hate my rules-lawyering/exploiting ass just as much I was just as bad with 1e. Remember that old magic-jarred, polymorphed brontosaurus hack? lolztown

 

[The1True]

It's bad enough that they feel a need to invade the Ukraine every other year...

 

[Osrnoob]

Gabor!

Baklin continues to see weekly use, great work!

I always ask what would you (the PCs want to do next session). They start in your port city and often change their mind, staying and getting into all sorts of trouble!

The location AH, you mention of portiant gallery with a particular painting to steal. the paintings talks is this a Maze Blue Medusa reference?

I also encorporated the book of gaub into my game a few weeks ago and something came up I wanted your thoughts on.

Page 32 Fractal Flensing is the spell the PC chose to study. There was a succubus that was running away from the party so they cast this spell on a shrub in the creatures retreat path. The monster destroyed the plant (the target of the spell) prompting succubus to make a saving throw which it failed and died.

How would you rule this based on the text? I don't mind the party having a non linear vodoo doll of death spell but want to make sure I read it right

It is 100% creative thinking on the parties part! The succubus is from 0913, she is the defacto pirate captian of the area and has the whole ruined town in her thrawl having drained the areas power players! She got big by selling dreams ala konosuba succubus's. With her death a campaign hole in local power is created but the party marches on! the isle of trials await and Tiamats dirty laundry must burn

 

[Melan]

Great to learn that the adventures continue in Baklin!

The talking paintings are just enchanted paintings. If they were a reference, they would probably be a reference to Tegel Manor, or Dorian Grey - but they are just good old "creepy mansion" talking portraits.

I would definitely let the players get away with a good plan! It depends on the reading of the spell (and I am not sure Gaub was meant to mix with AD&D), but if it is legit, it is legit.

 

[Osrnoob]

The adventures continue! It is quite an understatment to say this as the Isle has been the spur of two campaigns lasting well over a year now (DEC 2020 was the start, wow time flies)(initally Baklin was run with the city encounter tables ). I think that speaks not only to the power of evolving recursive elements in roleplaying but also your work right.

This ruling feels legit to me. It is a suprising plan they used to escape certain death. Outside of procedures, It feels right to look for reasons to say yes as DM.

This death will have ripples and the demons will have questions I consider it to be like headshots in stealth games, eventually the foes start making helmets.