The state of Post-OSR content

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Or, y'know, just run it in the system they're used to and convert on the fly. Just stat out the boss monsters. I ran BECMI adventures for years in 1, 2 and 2.5e. It was never an issue. Race as class and demoralizing level caps were just uch. Also no spells for 1st lvl Clerics? No thankyou.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
My experience is that the thieves always live the longest and get to do a huge portion of the scouting/adventuring. I think older editions actually favor thieves!?!

Perhaps you are thinking frontal assault? Stealth is the name-of-the-game. Also...setting traps. (Two of the thief's strengths.)

I'm with @Beoric, some hand-holding may be in order at first. Also, there is no shame in running at 1st level (it's also exciting as hell trying to get out of the dungeon in a mad scramble once the inhabitants have figured out you are there).

Also...welcome back @The Heretic !
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Or, y'know, just run it in the system they're used to and convert on the fly. Just stat out the boss monsters. I ran BECMI adventures for years in 1, 2 and 2.5e. It was never an issue. Race as class and demoralizing level caps were just uch. Also no spells for 1st lvl Clerics? No thankyou.
Eh, since I joined them for a 4th edition campaign and I've been running Pathfinder, That's not what I'm going for with this. But yeah I've been doing that sort of thing for years too. I even port older stuff into PFRPG.

LL at least lets 1st level Clerics have a spell. Yay!
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
My experience is that the thieves always live the longest and get to do a huge portion of the scouting/adventuring. I think older editions actually favor thieves!?!
Um, what?

I remember getting to read the Moldvay version of the Basic set when I was visiting my cousins as a kid (I had BECMI Basic). The example of play had a thief go up to a chest, search for traps and find none, and then die from a poison needle trap while trying to pick the lock. Have you looked at the chance of success for their abilities? 17% find traps at 1st level? Save vs poison almost the worst in the game? Backstab is nice, yeah, if you can make your Move Silently and Hide in Shadows checks. What are they in LL? Like 20% or less at first level for each? When their attempts to be sneaky inevitably fail, their d4 hp aren't going to save them from the monster their trying to assassinate.

There's a reason why thieves need the lowest amount of XP to level, after all.

I'm with @Beoric, some hand-holding may be in order at first. Also, there is no shame in running at 1st level (it's also exciting as hell trying to get out of the dungeon in a mad scramble once the inhabitants have figured out you are there).
I intend to do that, yes. And I'm glad you remind me that running is an option. As I look at this intro adventure to ASE1 with all the moktars I think to myself "Damn, they're going to get slaughtered!". But actually, being cowardly will help them immensely.

(If you don't have ASE1, the moktars in question are poisoned by radioactivity and will slowly die as the adventure progresses. Running in, retreating, and coming back later would be a smart thing to do).

What I was talking about was the temptation to let them know one of the ace tricks of the early editions of D&D. Sleep is a godsend. No saving throw, but 2d8 or so HD of humanoids asleep. That's powerful stuff. I remember you commenting about this very thing, probably in a different thread. Sleep and Fireball were meant to even the odds for the PCs a bit.

Also...welcome back @The Heretic !
Thanks! Besides the pandemic, I have been distracted by the latest expansion of my favorite MMORPG (ahem!), and now that that isn't stealing my focus away from things I'll probably post more.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Also (back on topic) reading the Labyrinth Lord rules reminds me of why I liked the increased survivability in later editions. The example combat with five orcs attacking by surprise almost ends in a TPK. Blech. As a kid that kind of stuff annoyed me. I wanted the PCs to survive and gain levels. The mid and higher level adventures were much more interesting to me. Most low level adventures get to be too much of the same thing. Yay more orcs. More kobolds. *yawn*
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
...their d4 hp aren't going to save them from the monster their trying to assassinate.
I do use the AD&D (and Swords & Wizardry Complete) d6 for thieves. First level traps should probably not have lethal poison...but "oh well"---first level PCs are expendable. Character creation is fast and cheap. The thief's strength is stealth (Halfing thief at 1st level: Hide in Shadows 25%, Move Silently 25%), but honestly anyone not in armor should be able to do it if you (as DM) think it's reasonable...don't even roll.

Honestly though, let them die --- it might be refreshing. I'll recount (yet again) my player experience with early Holmes/AD&D playing: when I finally found a group with an excellent DM, I flat out died my first time playing with them and had to sit and watch for a bit....might of even happened twice in my very first session.

I was hooked.

It's risk that creates drama --- and that's what's fun. I don't honestly care who or what the opponent is...it's not his (or my) abilities that make it interesting it's the fear of losing. So as long as the match-up is challenging...and I have some options to try...and my opponent plays it smart...it's GREAT. Sneaking around...afraid of getting caught...hoping to get away with treasure...is a blast. Seeing new and wondrous things while trying to puzzle them out is great fun. The mechanics don't make the game come alive---your intelligence does.

What kills the joy of D&D is mindless and repetitive straight-forward combat---that's a video game (because on console video games you couldn't do much else). What's more, as the players progress up the power-curve, it gets harder and harder to have credible risk. Lean into low-level play hard, and milk it for all it's worth (which is a lot). If they are coming from 4e it might be Night and Day---a whole new game experience for them.

Forget about being the Justice League. Instead, be a great DM (and challenge them to be great players). Hold yourself apart from them and look them in the eyes when they die (foolishly), as if to say, "So? Is that the best you can do?" (...or perhaps as is often more appropriate, "Play with fire...and you're going to get burned.")

EDIT: Yes. Sleep is the 1st level magic-user "nuke". Suggest they take it. The key is for them to use it intelligently...and for the monsters to try and make them waste it prematurely (so they have to run!...and the monsters attempt to cut them off...and so on...leaping up the dungeon stairs...monsters on your heels...heart pumping...adrenaline in the veins...roll the dice for an attack from the rear...Come on! Come on! I just want to make it to 2nd level ONE FREAKIN' TIME!...Ah! Good times.).

Also, when it's all over, there should be much (good natured) collective mockery of poor decisions and embarrassing moments. :)
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I also use the -10 hp "bleed out below zero unless stabilized" house rule so they can then have a Sofie's Choice of saving their fellow PC by dragging them from the dungeon or just fleeing to save their own neck.:devilish:

Dropping gold or food as you flee...
Being just a bit faster at running than the other guy...
Drawing the monsters into an oil-trap...(and accidentally realizing you've cut off your only means of escape!)
Using decoys to lure monsters away from the treasure...(and trying to convince henchmen to be the decoys!)
Being forced to use unidentified magic-items in desperation...(and knowing most come with a catch!)
Invisibility as the "new normal"...(do I attack and become visible?...or just watch my fellow party-member die?)
Hiring NPCs that are 50% likely to cause more trouble than they are worth...

The list goes on!
 
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DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
Rules are just a framework for arbitration - the actual, genuine difficulty of a game depends on the skill of the DM to retain a deft hand.

You know when a 17% disarm trap chance doesn't bog you down? When the DM goes light on the traps.

You know when modern combat doesn't feel like a tedious slog? When the DM knows how to design interesting encounters.

This, I think, is the great dichotomy between published and homebrewed adventures: the onus of design and balance. ASE is going to be hard with LL ruleset, because the skills you can use as a DM to ease play have been hamstrung (in a way) by the prescriptive nature of a pre-planned adventure module. It will be on you to know when to break the reins of the module and tweak the session (ie. make it easier) in order to maximize fun - despite squeen's insistence that all the fun lay in the danger of mortality, I think that many players like to actually play the game they're there to play.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
My experience is that the thieves always live the longest and get to do a huge portion of the scouting/adventuring. I think older editions actually favor thieves!?!
That's not my experience, at least not in 1e. Always in harm's way, crappy chances of doing anything at low to mid level, crappy chances of hitting anything at mid to high level, front line, crappy AC and HP but trying to backstab requires you to be in melee, dungeon design makes getting into backstab position nearly impossible. Stealth options that work significantly less than 50% of the time aren't reliable enough to count on - and when they fail the squishy thief is all on his own without party support. In any situation where the evil overlord and/or team monster can be assumed to be not completely blithering idiots, the thief is dead or down frequently, because he sucks at stealth, and shutting him down in combat requires almost no tactical acumen.

While the odd death is no big deal, sitting out half of every session is not so much fun. I ended up switching to fighter/thieves, and saying goodbye to human characters.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Hmm...not at all what I've seen---and I've only played 0e/1e.
I have no choice but to stick by my earlier observation.

Also, usually see thieves in second-line: firing bow with good dex adj to-hit and good initiative adj. (when not hiding in shadows which also get a dex bonus). They are not expected to be fighters...hmm.

Here's a picture I stumbled upon for you @Beoric:
dark-unicorn-manzanedo.jpg
 
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Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
1e thief isn't proficient in bow. I guess you could rock the sling (heh), thereby fulfilling your iconic role of not-backstabbing. And hitting the fighter in the back of the head; I seem to recall 1e rules for firing missiles made that a risky endeavour.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
In 3-book 1E they can only use slings. UA AD&D they can use short bows. I do prefer the 3-book version.

As for hitting fighters in the back of the head, such are the vagaries of theater of the mind DMs. When a real tactical map is used, usually there are plenty of targets not in the scrum-melee of the front lines. The thief can climb; climb up to some vantage point and rain down sling bullets on lesser-protected back rankers.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
There's my OD&D jumbled past again tripping me up --- thieves used bows...a lot.
Something to consider. Appearently they live a lot longer when they do. :)
 
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Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
Anyway, as I've been reading ASE for the game tomorrow I keep thinking "wow, this is going to be a slaughter". So should I break down and give them a little bit of good advice ("Roll an elf or a magic-user, and memorize the sleep spell if you want to survive") or should I let them figure it out on their own?
I'd recommend doing a little bit of both. Some basic advice is good practice whenever you're introducing a new system to players, but I'd do it when they're first creating characters and thinking about the adventure, rather than once they're actually on it. Part of doing this is to get them in the right mindset - how fixed and/or complete are things like the gear list or the list of spells, how expansive are procedures and how rigidly are they adhered to, what rules or parts of the game do you think are important vs. unimportant, etc.?

I ran S&W Complete from 2010-2015 and by the end of it, I had 42 pages of house rules. Part of what I'd do when I introduced new players was not to walk them through the rules themselves so much as to communicate how those rules embodied or expressed my vision of players' agency and their relationship to the world. Doing this was both very useful and very popular, moreso than simply pointing out neat rules I'd created or whatever.

For example, I like very large and expansive gear lists (link is to the extracted 7pg. gear list from the 42 pg. doc) but purposefully try to convey to new PCs that even such a massive list is necessarily incomplete and PCs are encouraged to use it to stimulate their imagination rather than thinking of it as an exhaustive list of goods available, or even all the goods they might actually need. So instead of looking at the gear list and getting a bad case of analysis paralysis over the possibility of picking the "wrong" option, they look at it as a set of imaginative prompts and just make sure they have the basics (weapons, outfit, backpack, cellphone plan) to start.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Well that was fun. I'll write a little recap here. My group has two players currently, and I let them have a main and a retainer starting out. Based on the straight 3d6 die roll for stats they ended up with a dwarf (one of the players having said he wanted to try one before they rolled), a cleric, a halfling, and a thief.
Hahahahah.
We started the beginning adventure to ASE (Phil and Terry burst in asking for help, their caravan got attacked by moktar!). Before ending for the night we got to room 2. The frontline fell into a pit trap. The moktar on guard in the next chamber sent out his wolf to attack (not a well thought out plan). Those who hadn't fell in to the pit were frantically trying to open it when they noticed the wolf (I let them roll for surprise, and they were not surprised). They decided to wait for the wolf to go first. In he fell, with Terry and the dwarf.

Those above went back to trying to open the pit while the dwarf, terry, and the wolf slung it out in the darkness. The dwarf had it nice, since he had infravision. He was doing a good job picking away at the wolf.

The halfling and the cleric failed their open doors rolls to try to open the trapdoor ("how are you trying to open the trapdoor?" "I have a ten foot pole, I guess I get that out." "Oh. <snicker> I guess the two foot tall halfling had a ten foot pole slung across his back"). The moktar on guard came to see how the wolf was doing...and found the upper group. He knew the pit was there, and tried to smack the nearest party member while not falling in.

Bam! He rolled an 18 (penalty to hit since he was reaching over the edge of the pit, trying not to fall in). The cleric's face caved in to the moktar's fist as he died. I decided Phil wasn't too bright, and he went forward to attack the moktar---failing and falling into the pit to die with a broken neck.

The halfling used this good(?) bit of luck to jam open the trapdoor with his ten foot pole. He got out his bow, and together with the thief, they turned the moktar into swiss cheese. Meanwhile the dwarf finished off the wolf with Terry landing in an unnecessary blow, for good measure.

So yes, in this case the thief wasn't the first to die. He has Str 4 and 2 hit points. The player hasn't treated him like cannon fodder yet, which is surprising. As we were rapping up for the night they heard a voice saying "Oh hi, sorry I'm late! I got delayed". A few rolls later and we determined the replacement for the cleric would be...another cleric! Score. So that's where we left off.

The players didn't ragequit (even though Discord and Rolld20 decided not to work quite right). It was fun.

I'll reply to the rest of your comments and suggestions later.

Also, Grognardia is a dangerous blog. I went to Henchman Abuse to look for material when I got distracted by the link to Grognardia. Doh! Prince will be glad to know it lead me to read a story by Margaret St. Clair, "The Man Who Sold Rope to the Gnoles". Damn. That's a good story.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
One last note, since ASE was written with the LL ruleset, that's the one I'm using. It's weird. It seems to be mainly Moldvay with a dash here and there of 1e thrown in. BECMI had AC 7 for leather, for instance, yet here it is AC 8 like 1e. Thieves can use any weapons. They asked about this (Str 4, 2 hp thief, after all) and I let them potentially use a bow to backstab, if it is short range. We'll see if that ever comes up. The thief badly failed his move silently/hide in shadows rolls to sneak up to the entrance of the lair, which I conveyed to the PCs as Phil and Terry starting to snigger at how badly he was sneaking in.
The halfling uses a shortbow. It's quite ambiguous. No 'large' or 'two handed' weapons. Does the shortbow count as either? I house rule allowed it for now.
I told them I wanted to keep it simple, like OD&D, for now. If this ends up being longer than a few sessions we might switch to 1e. We'll see.
 

Beek Gwenders

*eyeroll*
That's not my experience, at least not in 1e. Always in harm's way, crappy chances of doing anything at low to mid level, crappy chances of hitting anything at mid to high level, front line, crappy AC and HP but trying to backstab requires you to be in melee, dungeon design makes getting into backstab position nearly impossible. Stealth options that work significantly less than 50% of the time aren't reliable enough to count on - and when they fail the squishy thief is all on his own without party support. In any situation where the evil overlord and/or team monster can be assumed to be not completely blithering idiots, the thief is dead or down frequently, because he sucks at stealth, and shutting him down in combat requires almost no tactical acumen.

While the odd death is no big deal, sitting out half of every session is not so much fun. I ended up switching to fighter/thieves, and saying goodbye to human characters.
Fighter/thieves are better for short campaign play in 1e, not necessarily for long campaigns. When making any statements about thieves vs other classes, we need to take into consideration the lower XP requirements. If you take that into account, you’ll see that they don’t suck (though human thieves probably do to some extent), but I’ve never seen a human thief played except my own PC.

Here’s a comparison of thieves vs the other classes at equivalent XP points. They keep pace with clerics in terms of THACO and average HP, and even stay quite close to the fighter. Generally, with the ability to use swords and missile weapons + backstab attacks, they are better offensive combatants than clerics. And access to magic swords is a big deal in AD&D.

XPTHIEF LVLHPTHAOCLERIC LVLHPTHACOMU LVLHPTHACOFIGHTER LVLHPTHACO
013.52114.52012.52115.520
1,251272114.52012.52115.520
2,501310.5212920252121120
5,00141421313.52037.521316.518
10,001517.519418184102142218
20,00162119522.51841021527.516
42,501724.519627186151963316
70,00182819731.516717.519738.514
110,001931.5168361682019738.514
160,00110351683616922.51984314
220,00111371683616922.51984314
440,001123916940.5161127.516948.512
660,0011341141042.5141127.5161051.512
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
While the odd death is no big deal, sitting out half of every session is not so much fun. I ended up switching to fighter/thieves, and saying goodbye to human characters.
This. I'm all for Squeen's lethal low-level game, but sitting out for extended periods of time blows. OS games remedied this with tons of henchmen the reigns of whom you could take over when you were dead. But even that starts to suck after a while. There's a fine balance between the DCC funnel and the unkillability of 3+ed characters.

As for thieves, they were weak before, but then they swung too far the other way. 3e you just have to be some loose definition of flanking and you're popping off more dps than the barbarian. Same for 4e; I think that was the final straw for me. I took the Dragonborn Paladin in the intro game and he was serving as support for the friggin thief who was tanking it with his stupid flank attacks. booo. For the longest time I was house-ruling that the Rogue had to succeed in that Hide/Move Silent and got one flank attack/round in that fashion, but we stopped doing that for some reason...
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
@The Heretic : That's sounds like awesome fun. I'm not sure I'd have let the NPC fall into the pit unless he was a total klutz---but it's silly hi-jinx either way. Glad your players and you had a good time. Starting OD&D seems prudent (...but I'd advise just getting them used to segments early on). Is File->Ragequit a menu option in Discord? :)

@Beek Gwenders : Nice table! Good to know.

Yeah, I'm going to be hard-pressed to take bows away from my thieves...Robin Hood and all that.

At least I'll have UA to back me up...(Doh!)

Maybe they seemed to have lived the longest because at mid/higher levels there was already a precedence that they didn't do much fighting, and by then the stealth abilities kick in.

Agreed, most folks who rolled a high dex went for hobbit thieves---but that was pre-Jackson. :) That pushes up the already high dex +1, perhaps enough to gain thief-skill bonus. OSRIC explicitly gives halflings a +3 bonus when using bow or sling (not sure where that came from, news to me)---so if you allow that, that skews the attack tables further in their favor. They also surprise on 4 in 6 when scouting ahead of the party, which I would judge gives them a good chance of getting in and out without being noticed---something that goes above and beyond just the move silently percentage.
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
This. I'm all for Squeen's lethal low-level game, but sitting out for extended periods of time blows. OS games remedied this with tons of henchmen the reigns of whom you could take over when you were dead.
We learned to be cowards cautious, i.e. quite good at convincing the other guy to take risks!
Now that was rrrrrooooolll playing! Realpolitik style! :)

At 1st level (start-up) we typically hand-waived traveling to and from the dungeon so once you were out, it was fast getting back on the horse. And with very few HP, you were in-and-out fast too---playing ding-dong-ditch with the monsters who fortified and plotted between visits. After 2nd level, the death-rate drops quickly---unless it's TPK. These were all home-brewed dungeons (then and now). Perhaps they supported that type of play better than the published tournament modules---hence the OSR's early fixation on the megadungeon. It's possible "megadungeon" is really just code for a DIY dungeon you could enter and exit multiple times (e.g. B2 vs. G1). Of course, like the idiots that we collectively are, the focus landed on the blatantly obvious (size) and not its function (multiple forays).

Honestly though, sitting out and listening to your comrades take risks and get themselves into a pickle is half the fun. Players were always wandering off by themselves so that we had to take turns. We didn't mind---it was intel without risk (and a chance for mockery!). Of course, this was before the Digital Age shredded the human attention span.

With my kids, it's the same---but my wife wisely kept them on a lean diet of synthetic stimuli growing up (no TV/video games/texting/etc. except for a few hours on the weekend). Surprisingly, even after the freedom that came with heading off to college, it stuck! (Unsurprisingly they all because voracious novel readers.) My 20-something daughter prefers to bake, garden, jog or go for long walks around the neighborhood when she has free time. Luckily she still likes playing D&D with her family (going on ten years now).

Another wonderful puzzle piece to what I found to be so compelling at low-levels was that moment when you bumped into the enemy that had casually wiped out your entire 3rd-level cock-of-the-walk party in some past life. For example, you are picking your way through the dungeon, avoiding the orcs that you know are to the east. You try a left instead of right, and then WHAM! you see a pair of drow scouts in the hallway! OH CRAP! You don't even wait for the DM to finish his sentence before you starting screaming at him which direction you are running! Complete break down of tactical protocol as the front line scrambles over the back in a race for the exit! And in the Helter-Skelter dash, you---the fleet-footed elven magic-user---runs smack-dab into the skeleton at the Exit that has somehow regenerated...and you are all alone with your one sleep-spell (doesn't work on undead), dagger + THAC0 99, AC 10 fancy-shmancy cloak + silly conical cap, and 2-hp. Swallowing hard, you ask, "Is he blocking the stairs?"...knowing perfectly well what the answer will be.

If you're lucky, your pals (whom you just abandoned) will drag your limp body up the stairs with them...for a price. :p

Note, in the example above, avoidance was a real choice (no Quantum uncertainty)---hence the OSR's emphasis on non-linear dungeon design. Also, the possibility of very unbalanced encounters existed or that deliciously visceral moment-of-panic never happens. If you repeatedly poked a stick in a hornet's nest...you could very well make a dungeon unplayable for a low-level parties (and the consequences stick!).

Experience and gold are nice...but it's magic items that can really shift the balance in your favor. And that's why you take The Big Risk and head underground. (Of course, there's good/bad/neutral magic there too.) Consider this: Gygax put a Wand of Fireballs and Staff of Healing in B2 for Pete's sake! Also consider what happens in the above scenario with the drow if your silly one-shot magic-user now has a fireball-wand in his hot little hands? It's (panic) BAM! BAM! until unexpectedly <click>...out of charges. (I almost never give consumables more than 1d12---and never, ever let you casually buy magic in town).

Of course, all this is predicated on the assumption that you are with a patient group who finds being challenged fun and are not sore losers. Clearly, that's not everyone. I personally enjoy a high-risk game, and am strongly adverse to anything that resembles a cake-walks, training wheels, or a padded-cell. I also do not aspire to be an actor in a scripted or improv play performed in my living room (not that there's anything wrong with other people wanting to do that). It's just a hardened mind-set you willing take on that matches this type of play....rolling with the consequences. Are you a gambler? Yeah, losing does suck. It's suppose to.

However, don't confuse this style with adversarial DMing---that's not the case at all. Players mostly win because the house is secretly rigged a bit in their favor (ssshhh!). One loss in six still leaves a permanent scar.

Only later, does the campaign-world and wilderness-traveling start to kick in (and lethality drops with a generally more benign environment)---but by then, you all are hungry and totally hooked.
 
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