Palace Politics

[EOTB]

Squeen, I love what you've done to the place! Absolutely: fold, spindle, rework - use as how it makes your campaign fly. This is part of a slow-burning project to flesh out the OSRIC system's free resources for starting DMs. The game, a supplemental monster book (Monsters of Myth), and a low-level module (The Hyqueous Vaults) have all been completed for some time by others; I'm trying to finish out this town and the 1st level of a megadungeon so that someone who wants to ref 1E can play for quite some time without any cash outlay of their own if they're willing to use PDFs, and then expand however they wish when comfortable with the feel of the rule set. So what you're doing is what I hoped people would do with it - take it and make it work for them.

"Gaol" is the origin of the word "Jail", so that's the town prison, which doubles as the defensive fortress protecting the south gate. The lack of such structures to the west is the reason for the double wall/murderer's row there. Cliffs protect the north and the stream serves as a moat on the east.

"Acater" is the town provisioner; mainly for caravans but also for people such as adventurers that travel in groups. If you want to outfit for an expedition you visit the acater (who is also a very useful informant as he knows who's stocking up when, and often where they're going). PCs who do not purchase the acater's discretion may find others are quite aware of where they're going before they leave. (edit - this last bit I picked up from Tao of D&D's blog so h/t to him. He takes the realism-simulation farther than I prefer, but that's one tidbit he said that stuck with me.)

Ironically my players almost refuse to engage with the place; specifying that they keep their profile low, rest up, pay extra for anonymity with their innkeeper, and get back out of town. The wizard in the tower as I use it is a woman named Cynwise, who is lazily evil and founded the town before becoming bored with governing it. But she has her quirks, and is tied in with said dungeon by maintaining a 4-room complex (unknown in the town) for some bizarre longevity rituals. Long story short, the party had previously made contact with her in a "striped mage" capacity, and were in the habit of going to her for identification and sales of certain loot. But they ran into this complex while she was away, which had no useful treasure, but did have some of her favorite scented soaps - which they took in an effort to gain her favor! She was of course very angry but wasn't about to connect herself to the complex, declining the soaps but using her powers to steal them back while they slept. The details made the players suspicious of her, which is one reason for their newfound secrecy.

This works against them as they found a magic sword that is the lost, last blade in a set by a famous maker, that is worth 15,000 GP and agents for competing collectors are desperately trying to find them but they cannot. All this while the party is desperately in need of more funds to advance. Player agency works both ways!

I can't recommend Matt Finch's Tome of Adventure Design enough. I use it constantly in coming up with adventure themes. My brain works in set patterns and inspirations, and I've found unless I use these types of products to start from premises I'd not come up with, things become too same-y.

I logged out of K&KA to see if that forum required membership and it doesn't seem to. If you still have problems let me know and I can PM the tables to you. They're just raw text files but should be legible.

I agree on the top-down not being used actively against PCs. I look at it as "what happens without them". Of course, movers and shakers recognize others with the same qualities. So as PCs ripple through an area they may be approached or otherwise find themselves caught up in events. But my cardinal rule is that PCs engage or not mostly on their own desire. That doesn't mean if they walk down a street I know will riot that evening, that they won't be caught up in it. But presuming they can escape it, the riot wasn't put there because they're supposed to. Likewise, someone may desperately want their involvement whether they care or not because it's clear they're an x-factor. They may be pressured; that pressure may be effective. But the events are not generated to snare them. The question is always: to what degree can the party maintain their own agenda in the face of circumstances? (And they may become intrigued and jump in with both feet.)

 

[squeen]

@EOTB : Thanks for the additional info on the village and also narrative from your campaign. It sounds like a ton of fun. I really like the idea of the provisioner as town gossip (may have to steal that!).

Also, I was able to pull down your mega-post of tables for local politics (town creation really) from K&KA---they look quite useful. You should consider posting them as a document on your blog.

I think your plans for turning the Village of Groat and a nearby dungeon into a (free) OSRIC companion product is wonderful. With D&D, we all have our own interpretation of the game (in some ways we are all playing a different game). There are only a few common elements that connect us in the hobby. Those handful of adventures we have all played (or riffed on) are part of that connective fabric---something to give us the feel (illusion?) that we have a shared experience. I am convinced that B2 is of of those modules precisely because it was effectively "free" with the Basic Set. The early TSR modules too (despite cost) because the supply was so limited. Today there is an explosion of products---which is great---but less commonality as a result. I can't emphasize enough that I think your notion of a free OSRIC "starter campaign" is a worthy effort---something that could/should be put right on the OSRIC download website. Let me know if you ever want another pair of eyes to look the thing over before releasing it into the wild.

I like the look of Hyqueous Vaults, but I had though that Pod Caverns of the Sinister Shroom already served this purpose and I was surprised---when I checked on-line just now---to see that it is not free (thought the PDF was). I have a fondness for its ambiance and simplicity.

 

[EOTB]

The tables actually used to be up on the blog; they hadn't been much-viewed and I took them down as they're being repurposed into a series of online articles which will come out soon. More to your suggestion, at the conclusion of those articles they will be posted as a PDF resource in their entirety, until they're included in the Groat's End town product.

Forums are like concealed doors, so I didn't bother taking them down from K&KA; not very many people in the target audience read it.

I appreciate your thoughts and offers of feedback; I'll likely take you up on it. I'm just wrapping up a small scenario for someone else, but my following bits are promised to no one, and I'll ping you.

Pod Caverns is one of my all time favorite mods to run. I wish it were free too, but I believe it's still one of Joe B's best-sellers.

 

[squeen]

Forums are like concealed doors, so I didn't bother taking them down from K&KA; not very many people in the target audience read it.

So true (and kind of neat). Cyberspace as a labyrinth. Fun when you discover something new.

 

[EOTB]

Yeah, I think I'm going to start mining some of my old forum posts for blog content. Lots of digital gum-flapping and idea-tossing recorded in obscure areas just getting dusty.

 

[squeen]

That sounds useful (as much as I enjoy delving for lost knowledge). Blogs are less intimidating that forums to mine.

Looping back to your original reply to Melan's "End of the OSR", maybe it's now been long enough that we can collectively indulge in OSR nostalgia!
(Oh, the irony!)

 

[squeen]

A nice post on Retired Adventurer related to this topic (i.e. on how to systematically handle NPC) called Motive, Means, and Opportunity.

I promised awhile ago to let you folks know how our play went, but got side tracked. What went down was not at all what I expected (not a big surprise!), and I was forced to wing-it a bit more than I would have liked.

1) Familiarity: First off, having recently written (part) of the palace contents, it was "too new" in my head and I found I barely had to refer to the written page. This will be very different if the players return to this location several months from now. Therefore the printed organizational scheme was not terribly taxed by this session.

2) NPC activity: I managed to throw a lot of NPC interaction at the players using the half-dozen "main actors" of the court, but generally did poorly conveying the feeling a background activity by the serving staff. I need to brainstorm on how to do that better.

3) Castle as a dungeon: Having a good map definitely drove play, because (in our game) the player's are masquerading as someone who should know their way around the place---but they didn't. As a result, it turned into a quasi-Dungeon Crawl as they tried to find their quarters. (Kinda funny, that.) Honestly, being lost in the place made the game that evening. When I think about the Keep in B2---despite all the stats it did have about the soldiers and Castellan---it lacked a credible interior (keyed) map of the inner keep. Would it have added anything? Based on this experience, I'm leaning towards "yes".

4) Guards: I need to understand the guards and guard-shifts, and WTF soldiers actually do in a castle (walk the walls?). I'm using a re-tooled map of a real castle, but honestly there doesn't look to be enough room to contain a sizable force inside. In Domains at War, a unit is 120 soldiers and it suggests fortified locations should contain 1 unit. Do these fellas all have bunks inside the Palace or just go home when not on duty? Dunno. Also, do some of them just follow the king around all day? Wouldn't that be annoying?

5) DM improv: The players got in to a situations (while wandering around looking for their room and doing a horrible job of following the few directions they were given) when they encountered a courtier who was secretly working for an outside power. The prince they were impersonating was also associated with that power, so the courtier said something to the faux-prince in a secret language---excepting a response. The party's thief tried to cover things up by coughing furiously and asking for a drink---the courtier got him one, but drugged the wine. The thief drank it and failed his saving throw. Here's the rub---I made the thief's saving throw in secret because otherwise the whole party would have probably found an excuse to come rushing to the scene. I had the courtier delay the thief in conversation for awhile---the others left. We then focused on the other PC's actions---meanwhile the player who was the thief got antsy, but I brushed it off. When we finally returned to him---it was much later that night (game time) and he was tied up naked in the back of a moving wagon. The player started crying bloody murder---claiming he should of had 2 saving throws---one also to see if he saw the courtier spike the drink, and I was left wondering if I robbed him of too much agency by hiding the saving throw. The whole drugged wine thing was NOT something I'd planned out or considered before play started---it was just a reaction to an opportunity. Bad DMing? I still haven't decided if I should have handled it differently.

At least I have some time to work on this a bit more, as my kids/players are off to college for several weeks. Next I need to flesh out the new village (using EOTB's re-purposed/stolen map) that the thief was taken to, and also work out some of the details about the General and the kingdom's army as the rest of the party try to lead a force south to break a siege.

Lots to do.

 

[Malrex]

That looked like a cool blog--Retired Adventurer..

1) Familiarity--I love this. I always read beforehand so its fresh so I dont have to read much during play.

2) I have that problem as well..usually in a bar. I'll be RPing a NPC the party is talking too and then I'll interrupt myself with another drunk NPC who bumps into the table or something. Maybe your serving dudes could crash into each other or getting yelled at by the guy in charge...

3)I'm curious about this. Does your group just like to explore? I think the group I played with would be sorta bored unless there was monsters to bash in. Was there a lot of roleplay happening?

4)I usually jot down notes about guards--how often they patrol, how many, etc. I sorta treat them like wandering monsters.

5). When players split up, it can be tricky--but I also find it refreshing. It allows me a little break from the main group to think up what I'm going to do to them, while I rp with the solo player. I probably would of taken the person aside and allowed them to roll the saving throw at least. In our group, people are always going to a different room to discuss something secretly.

Being a thief, maybe he has a shot at escaping his situation...

 

[squeen]

He has got some really good stuff on the Retired Adventurer. Another good one I've been mining of late is The Alexandrian.

1) familiarity is important, but in this case a bit self-defeating since I was trying to suss out a good container for the play-able NPC data.

2) I like your "interruption" idea. Good stuff!

3) What does my group like? Talking to NPC in low-risk situations, often to brag about what they have already done. It's insane. Fame-seeking? Also, going after big reward situations---i.e. acquiring a coveted magic item. They weren't exploring the palace intentionally, they were just plain lost---like in a dungeon lost. I refused to bail them out. It was amusing and fun---every new room they accidentally entered had an NPC to encounter and interact with. Not in a game-changing way necessarily (although later the prince-impostor said she was constantly terrified of being found out). I need to post something sometime about playing the retro-game Ultima II using an Apple II emulator on my PC which I did this week. It majorly took me back in time (egads! Am I having a second childhood!?!). Anyway, that game was seriously old-school D&D---so much of it was just wandering from place-to-place and talking to things in the cities to gather clues on how to progress the game.

4) Yeah, I get that. How to document it and present for a written adventure is tougher.

5) Taking them aside is a good idea. Since I don't often do that...also would have rung some alarm bells. He definately has a shot at escaping. He's being carted up north to an old ruins were the malfactor's agents are based---interogation/prison time. There'll be chances to escape (even before he gets there, in the silly Brexit-city with Miracle Max), and there always hope of rescue much later. Meanwhile, he gets control of one of the long-time NPC henchmen (fighter, 4th-level). But honestly---the most refreshing thing for me is stripping off his gear. He's also down to just 6-hp, so it's like he's 1st-level again. Naked and Alone. Whee!!

Apologies to all--getting long winded again.

 

[EOTB]

Talking to NPC in low-risk situations, often to brag about what they have already done. It's insane.

It is insane - I don't play often but when I do I always try to present my PC as dumb, non-descript, and poor in day-to-day interactions. One exception is generously bribing gate guards for expedited entry w/only cursory inspections - even if I've found nothing they'd take interest in. It's always nice to have the city guard happy to see you. I suppose we always play based on our own DM preferences, and in my games - how do players think the thieves guild knows who to hit, anyway?

As to garrisoning, it depends on if you're going for "realism" or fantastical. I googled a Redit thread that linked to the following text:

The Medieval Castle

The Medieval Castle was first published in 1991. Minnesota Archive Editions uses digital technology to make long-unavailable books once again accessible, and are published unaltered from the original University of Minnesota Press editions.

books.google.com

Most garrisons were very small in peacetime. But you could presume a war footing as de facto, and then yes, they'd be patrolling the walls and likely posts at key entrances and interior locations. Perhaps a patrol of interior halls, but I think they'd have horns or other ways to call for help unless infiltration was suspected, instead of management by walking around. There'd be a barracks inside fortifications, etc. They wouldn't have much personal space.

claiming he should of had 2 saving throws---one also to see if he saw the courtier spike the drink, and I was left wondering if I robbed him of too much agency but hiding the saving throw.

Unless the player was suspicious at the time the drink was poured and watching closely I wouldn't give a save for that - perhaps a roll for the NPC if some rudimentary sleight-of-hand was required, but none if unobserved. For "secret" rolls I often ask players to roll percentile dice. They have no way of knowing what the roll's purpose is since I can equate d100 to any other die type, and I'm asking players to roll d100 all the time anyway without any context; sometimes it turns out that's a wandering monster check, a saving throw, a chance to hear noise, or a dozen other things that where either high or low could be most beneficial, so they pretty much give up on trying to guess what/why when most of the time nothing apparently happens afterwards.

 

[squeen]

@EOTB : Yes, but you are a strategic player, and mine are clowns in medieval garb. Only my son (who plays the offended thief) is a strategist---the others only start to fret when things go from bad to worse (and generally are as risk-adverse as adventurers can possibly be). Still, we have loads of zany capers and bizarre side quests like figuring out how to make a 1st-level spell that causes something's skin to change to a random color!?! (We don't do cantrips.) No way can I be accused of railroading that particular plot-thread.

The castle book you found is seriously cool. Talk about a reduction of mental scale, "...Oswestry Castle had a year round garrison of one knight, two porters, and two watchmen." 5 dudes in a castle! I would have never guessed---I blame Hollywood!

I recently visited a huge monastery in Spain that had only 9 monks left in it---down from a peak of over 100 roughly 150 years ago. The place was a vast maze. The monk there said it's way too big for them to keep clean. (That made me smile.)

Also I love your tactic of "switching the dice" to a percentile role to obfuscate the mechanism. I'm going to "borrow" that (too).

Thanks.

 

[EOTB]

Yes, but you are a strategic player, and mine are clowns in medieval garb.

LOL...true enough. I have lots of players like that too. So long as they're laughing, it's a good game.

 

[Beoric]

The player started crying bloody murder---claiming he should of had 2 saving throws---one also to see if he saw the courtier spike the drink, and I was left wondering if I robbed him of too much agency but hiding the saving throw. The whole drugged wine thing was NOT something I'd planned out or considered before play started---it was just a reaction to an opportunity. Bad DMing? I still haven't decided if I should have handled it differently.

You made a call that in the circumstances the character would not have had an opportunity to notice the wine being drugged, that is totally within your purview.

Most of my players would have at least sniffed wine which was handed to them by a NPC who was not a barmaid - you've got a very trusting thief there.

If your players abuse the metagame by changing their behaviour whenever you ask for a save, they can hardly complain about rolls being made in secret. When I am a player I actually prefer the DM to make certain rolls in secret; I would rather not have to double-think what my reaction would be if I wasn't aware the roll was being made.