OGL 1.1 = old school tactics

Malrex

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
So...what I'm hearing...is I got till Jan. 13th to keep using 1.0 OGL.

7 days to write up Sorcerers on the Shore!! A band of sorcerers are very greedy and taking all the wealth from the local villages, sucking them dry!! They must be stopped!! For levels 12-14.
 
squeen

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I think it has got to be bit hokey (legally) to put something out there that says "in perpetuity" and then rescind it.
That's can't be right --- even in the world of bullshit corporate law.

...and then there's the whole "you can't copyright game rules" thing...
 
Last edited:
Malrex

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
My sense is that OSR will be ok...that they mainly want to combine 5e to OneD&D, but I'm not a lawyer so hard to say until the final version comes out. Seems they should of disconnected 5e with a kickass 6e version instead of trying to tie them together--then maybe a new OGL could make more sense? Regardless, it's all pretty gross and disgusting.
MM has two 5e conversions out there and I just want to take them down. Not because I'm scared of some sort of repercussion as I don't think they would be able to do that, but because I don't want to promote/support any of their shit.

Man, this hobby is tough. First being bullied, then satanic panic, nowadays being cancelled because you want to fight orcs, and now this.....hard to just play a game/enjoy a hobby these days.

Even if I was super drunk and somehow signed on to 1.1 OGL....I probably wouldnt be able to afford human artists, so a big push towards AI art will probably happen. If OSR is somehow affected, I would rather put my energy into creating a whole new game that no one would play then line their pockets with a piece of my 20$ in pennies.
 
H

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
Malrex said:
My sense is that OSR will be ok...that they mainly want to combine 5e to OneD&D, but I'm not a lawyer so hard to say until the final version comes out.
Click to expand...
I'm not an IP lawyer, but this guy is: https://gsllcblog.com/

See especially https://gsllcblog.com/2019/08/19/part2abilitiesspells/ and https://gsllcblog.com/2019/08/26/part3ogl/

Bottom line: trying to leverage your copyright over stuff that you do have rights to (such as unique ideas, a la vampires that sparkle in the sunlight) into a monopoly over stuff that isn't copyrightable (like rules or identifying names) can blow up in your (WotC's) face and lose you (them) the ability to enforce your (WotC's) copyrights until you (they) cease copyright misuse.

Presumably this is why WotC never followed up on their cease-and-desist letter they sent the author in 2019: because he showed every willingness to take the case to court and win it, even if it cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and because WotC would lose much more than that if they were found guilty of copyright misuse.

Reading this article series explained something I've wondered about: why Dominions 5 can get away with having Mind Flayers/Illithids in it despite WotC claiming to have unique ownership over Illithids as "product identity." Presumably what's happening there is that the things both games have in common are not unique enough to be non-stock/copyrightable (the name "mind flayer", the concept of mind blasts, possible extraterrestrial origin), while the unique elements in Dominions were invented by Dominions' authors not by WotC (aquatic civilization/amphibious lifestyle, giant size, bodies made out of a mass of tentacles, ties to stargazing) or by HP Lovecraft (ties to R'lyeh).

This is not legal advice, I am not a lawyer, etc. But do read the IP lawyer's articles, above.
 
Last edited:
squeen

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Well, there you go. The OSR is not going to go down quietly. Yeah team (boo WotC).
 
H

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
Beoric said:
Also worth noting: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...ND_FASCIMILE__425_271_5215_001_Redacted-1.pdf
Click to expand...
That was fun to read.

WotC is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The original OGL is arguably copyright misuse (licensees get no benefit, no access to actual copyrighted material because it's all PI) and could lose WotC the right to enforce their copyrights if not replaced. But if WotC just comes right out and admits that OGL 1.0a is worse than useless to those who rely on it (it purely restricts them and grants no benefits) them that's a PR nightmare of its own. The "OGL 1.1" may be an attempt to write a limited license that will stand up in court without ever admitting that the OGL 1.0 cannot, but the OGL 1.1's terms are so horrible that 1.1 cannot thrive except where 1.0a does not exist.

It's possible that WotC's best move here is to relax some of the harsher terms such as royalty demands, limit OneD&D to "OGL 1.1" and keep hyping OneD&D, while leaving the 5E and OGL 1.0a ecosystem intact. It's not a good move, just possibly their best move among many bad ones.
 
Beoric

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Assuming WotC's lawyers are not incompetent, and I do, this is management problem. I'm not even sure what their strategic objective is, but determining it without first determining the strength of their legal position is both all kinds of stupid, and all too common.

I believe PF2 uses the OGL, so this may have a big impact on Paizo, which likely has incentive and deep enough pockets to settle this once and for all.
 
H

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
Beoric said:
I believe PF2 uses the OGL, so this may have a big impact on Paizo, which likely has incentive and deep enough pockets to settle this once and for all.
Click to expand...
Not to mention the entire world of open source software including Microsoft and Google, whose various interests WotC has stupidly chosen to threaten with their doctrine of revocable-by-default perpetual open licenses.

Hasbro/WotC is not the deep pockets that people are assuming they are.
 
Malrex

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Hemlock said:
Not to mention the entire world of open source software including Microsoft and Google, whose various interests WotC has stupidly chosen to threaten with their doctrine of revocable-by-default perpetual open licenses.

Hasbro/WotC is not the deep pockets that people are assuming they are.
Click to expand...
Maybe Paizo could take the lead....I'm sure all of us 3rd party publishers would jump in on that and join them as a united front. A common cause for OSR, 5e, and 'the others' to work together and fight Tiamat, I mean Hasbro. 🤪
 
Beoric

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I mean, the smart move would be to cut a deal with Paizo. Except that if Paizo isn't the target, I don't know what they are doing. Like, is the OSR really stealing much business from WotC?

Worth noting Hasbro announced a new CEO the day of the "leak".
 
H

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
Beoric said:
I mean, the smart move would be to cut a deal with Paizo. Except that if Paizo isn't the target, I don't know what they are doing. Like, is the OSR really stealing much business from WotC?
Click to expand...
I presume that what they think they are doing is strengthening their brand by gathering more data about how D&D is used, and reassuring potential licensing partners (think merch, movies, video games) that they're not suckers for paying WotC money when everyone else gets a (purported) "license" for free.

But a wise man once said, "If none of your expectations come true, Machiavellianism doesn't really matter. No matter what you think you're up to, you're just floundering."

(Source: http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/09/qa_with_gregory_1.html)

We shall see.
 
Johnny F. Normal

Johnny F. Normal

A FreshHell to Contend With
Do we even exist? Do the corporate whores even know that there are troglodytes playing TSR games? I sorta think that HAS/WotC only believe that 5e exists and all this bullshit is an endeavour to have complete control of 6e. If mechanics cannot be copyrighted (USA) and nobody is in Faerun or using carrion crawlers do we give a shit? I don't have much sympathy for those multi-tasking and publishing 5e in addition to the relic systems to squeeze a little bank from teat.
 
Beoric

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Johnny F. Normal said:
I don't have much sympathy for those multi-tasking and publishing 5e in addition to the relic systems to squeeze a little bank from teat.
Click to expand...
I suspect most publish in multiple systems because artists want an audience. I remain unconvinced that anyone who is not a reasonably well known publisher makes enough off of their DriveThru/DMsGuild sales for it to make any financial sense at all. I suspect most value their labour at $0 and are just happy if they can pay for their art, and maybe buy a new set of dice.
 
Malrex

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Beoric said:
I suspect most publish in multiple systems because artists want an audience. I remain unconvinced that anyone who is not a reasonably well known publisher makes enough off of their DriveThru/DMsGuild sales for it to make any financial sense at all. I suspect most value their labour at $0 and are just happy if they can pay for their art, and maybe buy a new set of dice.
Click to expand...
It's become a new hobby for me for sure. I enjoy hiring artists when I can and doing layout--especially Del Teigeler and Scorpy. With the art, the stuff finally lands on paper--just a fun experience for me to see your imagination come alive. I just wanted to at least break even. I did make some profit, but really nothing too amazing but it did allow me to work with more artists, get mapping programs, and try to make a better product.

The dreaded 13th is coming. I'm swamped with my job right now, but I literally have about 4 adventures in pdf format ready to go and wondering if I should just pull a all nighter and put them up on Drivethru. Not how I wanted to present them, but wondering if I do it before the OGL changes if they will be 'safe' and allowed because it was before the deadline or if they really plan to make everyone take everything down once the new OGL is in effect. I'd have to keep the OGL because some are based off OSE and FG&G. Maybe they see the light of day for a day or 2 before being shut down?

I see this: “if you want to publish SRD-based content on or after January 13, 2023 and commercialize it, your only option is to agree to the OGL: Commercial.”

Which makes me think I could sneak them in before the 13th...Some is just stock art to recoup so no biggie, but some was commissioned art.

I don't know...It's just disheartening for City of Vermilion and Coppercore...like 4 years of writing/adventures that will be dead in the water with no art and collecting dust in my computer unless I do a huge overhaul.

While Im on the soapbox...what would be really cool in my opinion, is if all 3rd party creators got together and created a new game and everyone just followed that for the most part and expanding it with everyone's creativity...so we wouldn't have 10,000 retroclones.
 
H

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
Malrex said:
The dreaded 13th is coming. I'm swamped with my job right now, but I literally have about 4 adventures in pdf format ready to go and wondering if I should just pull a all nighter and put them up on Drivethru.
Click to expand...
Maybe publish them as placeholders and update with content later? Normally consumers would hate that but maybe under the circumstances they will understand. I've seen at least one Patreon "publish" dozens of placeholder adventures with this reasoning in mind.
 
Malrex

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Hemlock said:
Maybe publish them as placeholders and update with content later? Normally consumers would hate that but maybe under the circumstances they will understand. I've seen at least one Patreon "publish" dozens of placeholder adventures with this reasoning in mind.
Click to expand...
Man....seriously no sleep this week. May just throw them up there...screw it. We had such big plans on how we were going to release everything...ugh. Oh well.
I almost just want to throw up City of Vermilion and Coppercore for $10,000,000.00 each....then when they are done in a few years, lower the price....lol. If Hasbro buys them and complains/tries to sue I can then use those funds to go against them in court.
 
H

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
Malrex said:
Man....seriously no sleep this week. May just throw them up there...screw it. We had such big plans on how we were going to release everything...ugh. Oh well.
I almost just want to throw up City of Vermilion and Coppercore for $10,000,000.00 each....then when they are done in a few years, lower the price....lol. If Hasbro buys them and complains/tries to sue I can then use those funds to go against them in court.
Click to expand...
The worst that can happen is that someone pays you $10,000,000.00 for them. Sounds like a good plan!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top