Me and the DMG

[DangerousPuhson]

Where everything is "awkward" out there in the big, scary world without their phone...where everything MUST be handed to them on a silver platter....snowflakes indeed.

Heh, classic Boomer mentality. They think we can't do anything for ourselves, are scared of everything, demand special treatment, and are sad unless we get participation trophies. Classic projection!

Millenials do everything for themselves because there are no more handouts like cheap tuition or jobs-a-plenty (thanks Boomers!). We are less scared than ever because Millenials don't get scared by shit like "deep-state conspiracy", immigrants, black people, sensationalized crime news, and other out-of-touch Boomer fears. The ME! generation were handed everything on a platter after WWII (except the actual fighting!) but it was all eaten up before it could "trickle down" to us, and so confuse our desire to get the same benefits Boomers had (like plentiful jobs, high wages, inexpensive houses, and dirt-cheap schooling) as "special treatment". Also Boomers invented participation trophies - kids weren't just giving them out to themselves, you realize...

Frankly though, their most egregious crime is the hypocrisy. I've rarely seen a Boomer who acknowledges just how much of a free ride they were handed in life, let alone one that sympathizes with later generations who have no chance of even coming close to that unprecedented prosperity and easy-living. Watch a Boomer when you take away his job or make him go back to school - changes their tune mighty fast!

This is a mighty big can of worms to open though... tread lightly.

 

[EOTB]

Participation trophies? Snowflakes? Generation that never used manual transmission? These comments explain so much now!

OK Boomers!

I can see why modern D&D feels it best to boil perception down to an abstract die roll.

 

[The Heretic]

<GenX> <grabs popcorn and puts on some grunge> </GenX>

 

[EOTB]

More to the point of the thread, I think this is due to the difference between birthing an inspiration and trying to understand another's work.

Inspiration comes in a flash, and it is usually the end first. One example is that many authors have said the saw the climax first, and worked back. When you're designing something, often you know what you want the end to feel like - and what you don't want it to feel like. It's an in-out process where you're working from the center to the edges, and so as you work your way out, you're constantly adjusting minor things that either don't hit or support the end target.

When trying to understand another's work, it's the opposite. You're on the outside trying to find the center. The danger for those on the right-center of the bell curve is they're smart enough to take any piece and mentally play with it, but still don't perceive the end; often because all the boring explanatory writing in the beginning is either skipped (This is for other people, I don't need it) or ignored. So the piece is then evaluated in a vacuum and tinkered with.

None of that means that AD&D or any D&D can't be tinkered with. It's describing the tinkering that ends with either plaintive or indignant forum and blog posts where the tinkering's failure is attributed to the rest of the game, or perhaps mystification as to why some other part of the game isn't working (and then as the conversation proceeds and you describe the check-and-balance that's supposed to be there it comes out that they excised that game widget because it didn't make sense to them...)

 

[DangerousPuhson]

I can see why modern D&D feels it best to boil perception down to an abstract die roll.

@EOTB Have you ever played 5e before? Perception is a combination of many things, and can involve multiple dice rolls.

First, it's a Wisdom skill, so involves adding a Wisdom modifier (which also means penalties to low WIS characters who may choose to not attempt the roll in the first place). Then there's the proficiency system to account for - adding or not adding a proficiency modifier. Then there's Passive Perception, which is a default Perception check made without rolling a die (like the Taking 10 rule in 3e, except automatic). Then there's searching, which uses the Investigation skill instead of the Perception skill. Then there's additional Perception "features" like tracking, listening, invisibility, concealment, etc which all have their own rules and rolls.

Can't exactly be boiled down to an "abstract die roll".

 

[EOTB]

OK, you got me. I revise to "a needlessly complicated Rube Goldberg machine abstracting player skill into various mechanical devises".

 

[The Heretic]

OK, you got me. I revise to "a needlessly complicated Rube Goldberg machine abstracting player skill into various mechanical devises".

What, you mean like a house rule that requires a minimum strength to be able to get your dex bonus when wearing plate armor?

 

[The Heretic]

More to the point of the thread, I think this is due to the difference between birthing an inspiration and trying to understand another's work.
<snip>

Hmm, seems like you're viewing D&D as Gary Gygax's sui generis perfect masterwork, wherein any tinkering ruins the effect. That seems a bit over the top to me. Does it matter if you roll stats with 3d6, 4d6 and drop the lowest, or one of the other seven or so methods Gary came up with? Not really. It's more about how it works with your play style and the type of campaign you're trying to run.

As for squeen's original house rule, there are other ways to get the same effect. Perhaps there is already a default minimum strength for wearing palte armor; if your strength isn't high enough you'll be over encumbered (though I can't remember if the 1e encumbrance rules had an impact on things like Dex bonuses). On the flip side, if the whole purpose of doing OSR is to have simplified rules, why bother making this house rule to begin with?

 

[EOTB]

None of that means that AD&D or any D&D can't be tinkered with. It's describing the tinkering that ends with either plaintive or indignant forum and blog posts where the tinkering's failure is attributed to the rest of the game, or perhaps mystification as to why some other part of the game isn't working (and then as the conversation proceeds and you describe the check-and-balance that's supposed to be there it comes out that they excised that game widget because it didn't make sense to them...)

 

[DangerousPuhson]

OK, you got me. I revise to "a needlessly complicated Rube Goldberg machine abstracting player skill into various mechanical devises".

You don't seem to understand 5e.

"Rube-goldberg-esque" is hardly the right descriptor - it's more like using the appropriate roll for the appropriate situation, with a modifier thrown on top. It's about as Rube Goldberg as using a screwdriver. Furthermore, skills are used to resolve the outcome of actions, like every check in D&D... that's all they are.

Modern D&D is no more or less mechanically streamlined than any retro-clone. It's easy enough to internalize that you can eschew rulebooks entirely altogether once you understand the system - I only ever use rulebooks now to check specific spell details, it's that easy to run.

 

[EOTB]

Your use of rhetoric must be instinctual as opposed to methodical, if when presented with counter-rhetoric the reaction is to defer back to dialectic.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Your use of rhetoric must be instinctual as opposed to methodical, if when presented with counter-rhetoric the reaction is to defer back to dialectic.

This is the most ironic statement I've ever seen.

 

[squeen]

It's describing the tinkering that ends with either plaintive or indignant forum and blog posts where the tinkering's failure is attributed to the rest of the game, or perhaps mystification as to why some other part of the game isn't working (and then as the conversation proceeds and you describe the check-and-balance that's supposed to be there it comes out that they excised that game widget because it didn't make sense to them...)

Definitely guilty as charged.

I have some issues I am unhappy with my 0.5e (Swords & Wizardry++) hybrid-game---so I mention my half-baked house-rule solution, and then (hopefully) someone better versed with the 1e rules (e.g. EOTB) explains to me how this 0e short-coming has already been fixed.

Here's another mantra worth repeating about the 1e DMG:​

​

​

It's not 1st-edition --- it's 1st-revision.​

​

In the context of reading the DMG, you need to understand the 0e game had been going along like gangbusters for years, and that AD&D (and specifically the DMG) is an effort to clean house. Gygax understands it's harder to learn and run---that's why he called it Advanced. The only question left is, "Did he accomplish what he set out to do?".​

Now, I understand there are probably checks and balances already in place in the original game that make it work fine without my tinkering. I REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND THOSE and make sure I incorporate them in my game in a rational way (like Weapons vs AC).

Here's what I'm picking at in AD&D today. I don't mind characters (with magic) plate having an AC of 0---but when the dex bonus pushes it negative, it irks. Dunno why. Just does. So...I was looking to make it a teensy bit harder for that situation to occur. (i.e. only the top 10% get that bonus).

I've see published House Rules that allow +1 armor or +1 shield, but not both---doesn't sit right with me, so---that <= -4 AC from dex---could/should I shrink it? Swords & Wizardry does (max is +1). Sure, in regular plate they are encumbered unless that have high strength anyway, so maybe it's just about enforcing encumbrance properly (as EOTB says, no need for the house rule!)---but not so much in magic plate (or +1 chain/+1 shield)!

I'm also thinking about making it so that one can't use a longbow in full plate---at least not with gauntlets and helmet on. Again, just trying to file-off the edge at the high-end of the curve. I want those 1 HD creatures to have >5% chance!

So, what's the point of this mental-roundabout? (House Rule! --> not needed you fool! --> oh! I see now...)

Well..It's true, I am a bit dim. (Thank you all for the hand holding.) I should really be capable of doing this alone, but....

What I've been trying to tell y'all in other threads is that it's actually helping me become a better DM. (Also the topic of this thread.) AD&D is like a black hole (don't quote that out of context!), and I'm spirally around it's Event Horizon---but it's still drawing me in.

 

[Malrex]

Heh, classic Boomer mentality. They think we can't do anything for ourselves, are scared of everything, demand special treatment, and are sad unless we get participation trophies. Classic projection!

Millenials do everything for themselves because there are no more handouts like cheap tuition or jobs-a-plenty (thanks Boomers!). We are less scared than ever because Millenials don't get scared by shit like "deep-state conspiracy", immigrants, black people, sensationalized crime news, and other out-of-touch Boomer fears. The ME! generation were handed everything on a platter after WWII (except the actual fighting!) but it was all eaten up before it could "trickle down" to us, and so confuse our desire to get the same benefits Boomers had (like plentiful jobs, high wages, inexpensive houses, and dirt-cheap schooling) as "special treatment". Also Boomers invented participation trophies - kids weren't just giving them out to themselves, you realize...

Frankly though, their most egregious crime is the hypocrisy. I've rarely seen a Boomer who acknowledges just how much of a free ride they were handed in life, let alone one that sympathizes with later generations who have no chance of even coming close to that unprecedented prosperity and easy-living. Watch a Boomer when you take away his job or make him go back to school - changes their tune mighty fast!

This is a mighty big can of worms to open though... tread lightly.

You pegged me wrong, I'm no Boomer.
I'm Gen X and just call it as I see it.
What's next after Millenials? Generation Z or some shit? oh my god, don't even get me started on that...
What the hell is this thread about?
*turns up Nirvana*

 

[squeen]

Much to EOTB's chagrin (I imagine) I am now also asking inane questions over on the Knight & Knave forums too.

 

[EOTB]

Definitely guilty as charged.

Much to EOTB's chagrin (I imagine) I am now also asking inane questions over on the Knight & Knave forums too.

FWIW, your posts aren't what I was considering when I wrote that; it was describing many cumulative years of AD&D discussions in many places, no single poster here or elsewhere. There's a difference between asking questions about a system and coming on a forum to proclaim a system is broken because it doesn't do what you expect.

Again, just trying to file-off the edge at the high-end of the curve. I want those 1 HD creatures to have >5% chance!

The system posing lethal risk for heavily armored, high-powered characters in engaging 1HD monsters is described on DMG pgs 72-73. It's just often overlooked because many DMs don't like to juggle two different game-system balls in the air at one time. The reason they are different is to give entirely different risk curves for situations where someone is outside your guard (DMG pgs 74-75) vs inside your guard (72-73). High-level, expensively-equipped characters lose most of their benefits if they ever let anything inside their guard.

Of course that requires a game layer that punishes poor tactical thinking, formations, etc. And sound tactical discipline acts as a limiter on high-level characters as opposed to theater-of-the-mind "I attack orc #2!" "I attack Orc #4!". So most dispense with it. But that's why this version is advanced. It doesn't need to be for everyone.

 

[The Heretic]

EOTB, I see have misread you. See, this is why multitasking is a BAD thing. I thought you were defending the use of 3d6 (only) as the correct way to roll character stats. Also I think the Quantum Ogre thread was colouring my perception.

Squeen: Just out of curiousity, you're not talking about brand new, 1st level characters with AC less than zero, are you? Also I suppose this was one of the nice things about Pathfinder/3e; most players opt not to go with plate armor because you lose too much tactical movement that way. I can't think of any players in my recent campaigns who have opted to buy it, except maybe for a cleric.

 

[The Heretic]

You pegged me wrong, I'm no Boomer.
I'm Gen X and just call it as I see it.
What's next after Millenials? Generation Z or some shit? oh my god, don't even get me started on that...
What the hell is this thread about?
*turns up Nirvana*

Eh, Millenials aren't that bad. It's the boomers who are obnoxious.

Also, what are you, a sell-out? Nirvana? Psh. Listen to some real grunge, like Mudhoney or Mother Love Bone.

 

[Beoric]

The system posing lethal risk for heavily armored, high-powered characters in engaging 1HD monsters is described on DMG pgs 72-73. It's just often overlooked because many DMs don't like to juggle two different game-system balls in the air at one time. The reason they are different is to give entirely different risk curves for situations where someone is outside your guard (DMG pgs 74-75) vs inside your guard (72-73). High-level, expensively-equipped characters lose most of their benefits if they ever let anything inside their guard.

Wait, are you suggesting that the answer to high-powered characters is to have the 1 HD monsters use the weaponless combat tables?

 

[Malrex]

Eh, Millenials aren't that bad. It's the boomers who are obnoxious.

Also, what are you, a sell-out? Nirvana? Psh. Listen to some real grunge, like Mudhoney or Mother Love Bone.

The Heretic...thank god for you. I said Nirvana because no one ever knows the bands I listen too, disgruntled, I just say the most popular ones I can think of that sorta hits the mark. I LOVE Mudhoney and Mother Love Bone!!

Boomers, Millenials, other generations...they are all obnoxious. I only like Generation X....I got a soft spot for DP though, I still like him.