Has Bryce lost his mind?

[EOTB]

I agree. What I'm saying is that at that price point, skip the high priced PDF altogether and figure out how to print it. If you're putting out a PDF because you can't figure out how to print it or how much demand you might have, then release it in tiny self-contained chunks (they did previously break it up into 5 parts and offer those parts POD but even that was too expensive), work up some word of mouth and get a healthy mailing list going and then launch a Kickstarter for a Big Box Set or shiny leather-bound monstrosity and yeah, I'll fork out $100-200 for that. I regularly shell out large chunks of cash for nice printed work because, as we've all discussed, I hardly ever get around to reading the cheap PDF's in the D&D folder on my laptop (Although, I'm finding the solution to that is to pack the PDF's into my Kindle. A bit of a pain in the ass to scroll around the page, but they're right there and convenient when you're travelling...) and because I like having attractive D&D books on my nerd shelf.

Agree with you there. I haven't paid attention much since shortly after launch, but from what you're saying I presume the DTRPG print issues still aren't fixed. (there was some problem with the files and XRP pulled the print option because lightning source wasn't printing the file right).

The move to the Netherlands from the US probably makes the physical copy issue more complex than if they were still in the US.

I agree, this seems like a scenario kickstarter makes sense for. XRP didn't use to view kickstarters very positively for the reasons people who do complain about them, complain about them. So it may be that it's just not something they want to do under any circumstances.

 

[The1True]

XRP didn't use to view kickstarters very positively for the reasons people who do complain about them, complain about them.

Just out of curiosity; what are the usual complaints about Kickstarter?

 

[EOTB]

Just out of curiosity; what are the usual complaints about Kickstarter?

There were a handful of publishers who prided themselves on not using kickstarter, feeling it should be a vehicle for those who need it to get something done vs. those not needing external funding to get something done. That was the primary one.

Kickstarters have downsides - you have to run a social media campaign and then a post-funding steering committee through comments, and to get the buzz that fuels a KS usually requires additional promises/stress/completion risk. There's plenty of reasons why many KS crash and burn aside from lackadaisical people running kickstarters. Whether those reasons play into XRP's reasoning or not I don't know.

 

[Malrex]

There were a handful of publishers who prided themselves on not using kickstarter, feeling it should be a vehicle for those who need it to get something done vs. those not needing external funding to get something done. That was the primary one.

Kickstarters have downsides - you have to run a social media campaign and then a post-funding steering committee through comments, and to get the buzz that fuels a KS usually requires additional promises/stress/completion risk. There's plenty of reasons why many KS crash and burn aside from lackadaisical people running kickstarters. Whether those reasons play into XRP's reasoning or not I don't know.

Spent about 25 hours over the weekend on Palace and countless hours over the past few months. Its one adventure, but with 3 different rulesets, its like doing 3 adventures at once. There is definitely some stress involved, especially when you need to rely on other people (artists, and in our case, Goodman Games to review our DCC version in time). Every thing takes a little more time than you think. I've edited the adventure countless times, and had someone else edit it twice and made corrections to all 3 rulesets at once. I think the amount of time both Prince and I have spent on it, it equals to about 10 cents an hour...haha. Last weekend was grueling but I also find it a bit fun and was in the 'zone'. The whole social media campaign is the part I hate and admittedly, I'm not very good at it...I hate it. I actually just deleted FB about 2 weeks ago cause I hate the whole aspect of it.

But the rewards of doing a KS are great. Mainly, working with quality art and also working with other people as they help shape your project. I've learned a bunch about layout and the whole KS vibe 'forces' you to be better and do your absolute best--because people are counting on you. Plus, they already paid and you don't want to piss em off.

You get people making comments about 'your' project and it makes you get even more excited about it--cause they want you to finish the thing so they can enjoy it. I don't like being in the spotlight very much, but when you get supporting comments or a thumbs up, it fires me up. The review today, the author said he was 'sick of looking at it and just wanted it done'. I can relate. I feel like I've been sleeping with Uyu-Yadmogh for the past month, but with a KS, you got this 'force' that makes you work harder, there are expectations to meet and/or exceed.

I could see why people would complain about KS...they are no joke...but so far with this first one, I felt the whole thing was a pretty cool experience and I've learned a lot for future projects.

 

[squeen]

I am excited to see Palace---not to rush you, but it's the product I am most eagerly anticipating.
The wating is part of the fun. More power to ya!

 

[The1True]

It's those stretch goals that'll get you in the end. I signed on for Odious Uplands on top of Operation Unfathomable... I'm sure that'll come out any day now. Any day.
How Dwimmermount got shat on by the whole community, but Hydra skated by this unmitigated disaster is beyond me.

 

[bryce0lynch]

So, I'm dating (Don't start sentences with 'So'). Was dating? Am dating? When dating ... I've noticed that many profiles will say things like "I like travel. Hiking. Nature and the Outdoors." Then I come along to their lives. I seem great. Then I'm like: "Yeah? Want to live out of a truck for the next ten years of your life while we drive, literally, all over the world, camping, hiking, etc?"

We tell ourselves we are a certain kind of person. It's part of our identity. "I am the kind of person who X's" And then reality shows up. "Really? Wanna dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?" Well, maybe not. And that's another existential crisis as people come to grips with who they actually are vs who they have told themselves they are.

Does the cost of an adventure matter? Is it the case that it is only the idea of paying $20 for a 60 page pdf, that is bad/could be bad, an issue ... or is cost really an issue?

If an 8 page pdf cost you $21 would you buy it, sight unseen?
What if you KNEW it was good?
G1 was $6 in 78

How far can we push this example? How much are you willing to spend on something of unknown quality? Is there, in fact, a threshold where, knowing something is good, you say "No, it doesn't matter how good it is, I'm not paying $100 for a six page PDF."


Then, add in the designers own personal emotions. They dream of making it big. They bought some art, a map, editing, and the idea of not self-funding your great American novel sounds wonderful, to your ego. BUT YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT and are, in fact, asking the hobby to find your education ... assuming in fact your writing does actually improve over time. Which is why I argue that PWYW is a good place to start. Write. Write more. Get it out there. LEARN and improve. Do the ENTIRE fucking thing yourself. Line drawings. Learn to use Word section headings and two column. CC3+ misery. Do it. Do it all. Do it all OFTEN. Then, when you've got it down switch your model. Outsource art, editing, layout, etc. You'll be in a much better position to know what you want. And start charging. Hopefully you've built up a following by then so that when you DO start charging you're making bank.

$20 10 page PDF's from a first time designer. *sigh* I like to say it doesn't matter, but, man, I fucking KNOW its just throwing my money away. I throw money away all the fucking time but it still fucking gives me pause. I think?

 

[squeen]

When do we transition mentally from a youthful perspective that says "Who do I want to be?" and actively puts on that idealized-self like a coat (i.e. Fake-It-Until-You-Make-It), to looking back over enough accumulated actions to be able to realistically judge "for the most part, this is/was my default persona---this is what I typically do..."?

Are we just the sum of our habits? How hard are you willing to try to change what you don't like about yourself?

When I was younger, I naively thought people could change easily. If you saw someone making a mistake---you just inform them, and once they intellectually realize their error, they'll just change. Later, when this proved to be false, I started to cynically think that people never change. This turned out to be incorrect too. What I believe now is that---like making a diamond from coal---people change only when tremendous pressure is applied from all sides.


And speaking of habits...the price point (for me) is a balance between what is a reasonable amount to be spending on my hobby and is it great (= well reviewed---thank you Bryce). If it's a masterpiece, but expensive, I will delay gratification: mentally "saving up" for the purchase. The higher the price....the longer I abstain from any/all/other purchases so that hobby-related (average) expenses are in-line with other entertainment expenses like Netflix.

The other factor, is as EOTB said, "Will I truly use this?" or am I just looking to be inspired---if the former is true, acceptable cost is probably doubled.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

What is man?
What is money?
Does man have a soul, and if so, should I put it in this $12 adventure?

This thread's going to some weird places, man.

The other factor, is as EOTB said, "Will I truly use this?" or am I just looking to be inspired---if the former is true, acceptable cost is probably doubled.

Soft disagree. If your groceries suddenly doubled in price, would your trips to the grocery store be more or less frequent? Would you more or less inclined to add additional things to your grocery cart? And what if a store opened nearby with slightly different products at normal, undoubled prices - would you even look at the old double-priced store again? Remember that you will "truly use" your food.

People are hardwired to look at cost first, that's why those little tricks like ending prices in ".99" exist. Adventures are (mostly) sold impulse buys at a good price - I don't have the metrics, but I'd wager money that far more adventures are moved when bundled into some deal than when standing alone. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending), you can trick a human mind into believing that a normally-priced thing is a bargain - sales, and bundles, and scarcity and whatnot. But those tricks only work if the potential customer is already looking at the product. I don't mean already already considering it, I mean they have to literally learn of the existence of the product before it will be sold to them. That's where most adventures struggle - advertising. How many modules didn't hit it big until the reviewers sunk their teeth into it? How many adventures have you personally discovered because someone other than the author told you about it? Most, I'd wager.

DMs are, by their nature as the lone leader and module-purchaser for an isolated group of players, poor advocates for a product. There's no cross-pollination of sales either - quite the opposite, really. If someone has already played through an adventure with a different group, then their current group will be unlikely to run it (unlike with normal products, where previous usage makes it more likely to convert other sales). Likewise if the DM changes groups, he's not going to re-buy the adventure for the new group. Modules are not consumables - once they're out there, the customer isn't coming back. What that means is that for every sale you make, you have to start from scratch for the next customer. There's little carry-through.

There are more big obstacles with the adventure-writing business, from a marketing perspective:
1) people are largely unaware of what's out there (advertising is expensive and tough);
2) the customer pool is pretty small (DMs who coincidentally run the same system are the only ones buying your modules);
3) product endorsement by word-of-mouth is stifled because potential buyers don't intermingle as much (groups are isolated); and
4) there's no centralized repository as an audience interface (there's no D&D-TV channel to run ads on, no BoardGameGeek.com equivalence for D&D).

It's bleak, but not impossible. Obstacle 1 requires a knowledge of the best advertising routes and practices to reach the audience. Obstacle 2 is circumvented by making the module appeal to more customers (this is the origin of the pervasive modules-as-reading-material trend) and by writing for the most popular system (mainstream D&D). Obstacle 3 requires endorsements by well-respected industry individuals with large audiences (If Matt Mercer says "buy this thing", you better believe those sales are going up). Obstacle 4 requires focused, targeted advertising strategy across multiple channels to maximize what we in the biz call "impressions".

Despite your personal feelings about advertising/marketing, it does have its uses. In a market where most are ignorant of the product and hesitant to part with their money, it becomes all the more important.

 

[Beoric]

I dunno, the really great modules do get re-used. I just dropped a bundle on Goodman Games' 5e conversion of B1 and B2, because I'm just starting with 5e and don't have the system mastery to convert it myself, and I want to run them for my kids. I will probably do the same thing when ToEE comes out, because even though I have Hommlet and ToEE, and I already have a 4e Hommlet campaign going, I love Hommlet and I want to run it again.

Re-usability used to be a much lauded feature, bit it doesn't really get discussed anymore. Sure, G1 may have been $6 in 1978, but how many times did it get run by the same DM, or passed on (sometimes inadvertently) to a new DM to run? By modern (Bryce) standards T1 and B2 are a mess of wall of text, but they have this quality of easy adaptation to any setting, and replayability even with the same DM and players. Try doing that with an art project like Blue Medusa.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Re-usability is independent from purchasing habit. Some products can stand the test of time or are re-issued with updates, it doesn't mean that sales of it are guaranteed. If re-usability guaranteed sales, then all the best sellers would be those random table generator adventures that come up with a different adventure each time.

The notion I'm trying to convey is that you are not more likely to buy an adventure you already have, and such things extend to your whole group and not just the individual buyer (would you as a player buy a copy of G1 if your DM already has a copy? For that matter, would you as a player buy a module meant for DM-eyes only at all?). That's the problem... as an author, even if you sell your module to a group of ten different people playing D&D together, they only need one copy, and you have only made ONE sale. And now that copy is out there, so that even if the DM were to take it to a different group of people, he's not giving you any more money to do it, which cannibalizes future sales.

 

[Beoric]

The original Keep on the Borderlands is an Adamantine Best Seller on Drivethrurpg, as is ToEE. Village of Hommlet is a Mithral Best Seller, as is In Search of the Unknown, The Lost City and Against the Giants. Isle of Dread is Platinum, as is Castle Amber, White Plume Mountain, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and Dwellers in the Forbidden city (and for comparison the deluxe version of Blue Medusa). The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth is Gold. Tomb of Horrors is Mithral, Return to ToH is Platinum, the 3.5 conversion is Gold, and the 4e conversion is Silver. People are still buying these 40+ years later because other people are still talking about them 40+ years later. They have that staying power because they keep being used.

And we are talking about the value of a product. A product is likely to have more value if its utility does not diminish over time. Re-usability is a big part of that.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

People are still buying these 40+ years later because other people are still talking about them 40+ years later. They have that staying power because they keep being used.

They have that staying power because they are OG modules, and people already know about them. Everyone has heard of Keep on the Borderlands and Tomb of Horrors because they've had 40 years of time to hear about them. The staying power of historical products is NOT AT ALL related to the troubles that modern authors face in releasing new products. We are discussing modern products, coming out now - you can't write an adventure 40 years ago, you can only write them today, where the default is being an unknown product and thus making poor sales numbers.

Saying that the market can bear new products because historical products have done well is like saying that the novel you've been working on all these years will become a best-seller because people still buy copies of Lord of the Rings. They aren't connected.

And we are talking about the value of a product.

No, if you go back and actually READ my post, you will see I was addressing squeen's remark about the "acceptable cost" of an adventure, not the value.

anecdoche
n. a conversation in which everyone is talking but nobody is listening, simply overlaying disconnected words like a game of Scrabble, with each player borrowing bits of other anecdotes as a way to increase their own score, until we all run out of things to say.

 

[Beoric]

Well, squeen and Bryce were talking about value, among other things; you will note I didn't "Reply" to your post.

But I forgot that whatever you want to talk about defines the conversation.

EDIT: Sorry I'm pissy. Having done fuckall for months to deal with the pandemic, the fearless leader of my province has now been forced to cancel Christmas. Sorry if that's too political, @PrinceofNothing.

 

[squeen]

@Beoric : I was speaking for myself. Personally, I might raise my bar to double some arbitrary ceiling ($75?) if the adventure was highly acclaimed by reviews I respect, and I had a pressing need for it.

Bottom line: I am generally not paying over $150 for a single D&D adventures, no matter how good, because I know how to roll my own.

...and Word of Mouth matters.

 

[Malrex]

"I like travel. Hiking. Nature and the Outdoors."

 

[The1True]

There are more big obstacles with the adventure-writing business, from a marketing perspective:
1) people are largely unaware of what's out there (advertising is expensive and tough);
2) the customer pool is pretty small (DMs who coincidentally run the same system are the only ones buying your modules);
3) product endorsement by word-of-mouth is stifled because potential buyers don't intermingle as much (groups are isolated); and
4) there's no centralized repository as an audience interface (there's no D&D-TV channel to run ads on, no BoardGameGeek.com equivalence for D&D).

Sounds like you just found a niche that needs to be filled. I would visit this website. I mean I check out Tenfoot and AgeofDusk and even Endzeitgeist every week. I would go to a marketplace to scroll through the thumbnails of new releases with quick blurbs on what their about. Categorize them with tons of tags so I can narrow my search criteria etc. yes. DTRPG does not do this for me. It is a crapshoot.

 

[The1True]

"I like travel. Hiking. Nature and the Outdoors."

"and long walks on the beach" lol

 

[The1True]

So, I'm dating (Don't start sentences with 'So'). Was dating? Am dating? When dating ... I've noticed that many profiles will say things like "I like travel. Hiking. Nature and the Outdoors." Then I come along to their lives. I seem great. Then I'm like: "Yeah? Want to live out of a truck for the next ten years of your life while we drive, literally, all over the world, camping, hiking, etc?"

I did Match back in the day. Made the mistake of putting travel and running in my interests. Dated a bunch of ladies who were into dropping everything and visiting Mt. Everest base camp-type destinations 3x/year and literally three of them ran marathons. I'm like... "gee, I like to save up and go scuba diving in Mexico when my job lets me, and I run 5k in the morning to keep from dying of heart disease..." despite this, met my diplomat wife and now (ironically, I guess?) travel the world with her...

What if you KNEW it was good?
G1 was $6 in 78

Okay, but G1 was something I could hold. And as a kid, I used to pass over that shitty, off-white-covered, 1e rag every time I saw it in the bins at the store. I bought the colour-cover 2nd ed. with lots of illustrations... But yeah, you can't compare that to an overpriced PDF. I'll pay to have something in my hands. I'm less enthusiastic about PDF-only copies. Every once in a while something like Gates of the Gann is out of print forever and I get that.

The original D&D modules have legendary cache on top of being exhaustively reviewed. Comparing them to the stuff struggling on DTRPG is not fair.

As a DM I DO reuse adventures ALL the time. Some are so ragged from reuse (B5, UK5) they're in pieces. Our favourite adventures are burned into our memories, we take them with us when we think there's a possibility of a pickup game. Word definitely spreads of that kind of adventure.

Yeah, I think the most I've spent (apart from collectors items) is on those big Frog God collected hard covers (Northlands Saga etc). I'm balking at the insane price of MotBM on EBay. Ditto for the price of collecting the 5 Arden Vuul hc's.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

I did Match back in the day. Made the mistake of putting travel and running in my interests. Dated a bunch of ladies who were into dropping everything and visiting Mt. Everest base camp-type destinations 3x/year and literally three of them ran marathons. I'm like... "gee, I like to save up and go scuba diving in Mexico when my job lets me, and I run 5k in the morning to keep from dying of heart disease..." despite this, met my diplomat wife and now (ironically, I guess?) travel the world with her...

I did Bumble myself a few months after my divorce. My now-girlfriend of 1.5 years cold-opened the conversation with "You play D&D? That's awesome. What class?" - when I told her I DM, she was very excited.

She's also hot (and has other good, non-D&D qualities), so I snapped her up immediately. I was in the dating pool for all of 20 minutes.