Fairy Tale Feel
- Thread starter Yora
- Start date
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Figure out which D&D monsters are derived from folk-lore and mythology, then ignore everything D&D tells you about those monsters - pretend as if the Monster Manual was never written. Now use those monsters in your adventure, alongside every fairy tale trope you can think of (but add a little twist so it's original - for example, you know how Hansel and Gretel were lured by a forest witch into a gingerbread house after being abandoned by their parents? Well, lure them into the forest with dreams of their parents being eaten by a monster woman made of candy instead. That sort of stuff).
Include lots of baby-eating, talking animals, and tolls paid in weird currencies (teeth? wax-coated mice?).
Finally have Bryce gush about how much he fucking loves your "unique" adventure, even though it's formula can be broken down into two sentences.
Personally I've never seen the appeal of fairy tale games, but whatevs, this is basically how they're all written.
Include lots of baby-eating, talking animals, and tolls paid in weird currencies (teeth? wax-coated mice?).
Finally have Bryce gush about how much he fucking loves your "unique" adventure, even though it's formula can be broken down into two sentences.
Personally I've never seen the appeal of fairy tale games, but whatevs, this is basically how they're all written.
Two orcs
Officially better than you, according to PoN
The two most important elements are
1. The fairy tale audience is not fantasy savvy (since they're children or live in the 17th century) so monsters, magic and locations have to be things they can relate to but twisted or magnified.
2. The fairy tale contains practical wisdom on how to deal with real life dangers. Fairy tale monsters represent predatory humans which is why catching them in lies and reading the fine print in their contracts is key to defeating them. A dungeon adventure means entering a fluid and chaotic situation. A fairy tale adventure means entering a world of strict but unknown rules.
1. The fairy tale audience is not fantasy savvy (since they're children or live in the 17th century) so monsters, magic and locations have to be things they can relate to but twisted or magnified.
2. The fairy tale contains practical wisdom on how to deal with real life dangers. Fairy tale monsters represent predatory humans which is why catching them in lies and reading the fine print in their contracts is key to defeating them. A dungeon adventure means entering a fluid and chaotic situation. A fairy tale adventure means entering a world of strict but unknown rules.
Gus L.
A FreshHell to Contend With
Well been running a fearyland reskin of B3 and I think I've managed to get a lot of the feel by doing the following:
A) Downplaying the body horror and gore in favor of more bizarre descriptive horror stuff - no one is eviscerated and tortured leaving behind a blood spattered room but they might get thier bones baked into bread by an ogre or have their eyes turned into pearls by a fairy.
B) Everything is willing to chat - though they may not be reasonable. Everything wants something and pacts, agreements, curses and such work very well.
C) More powerful entities have strange hidden weaknesses - ogres that are unbeatable in combat but afraid of mice, dragons missing a scale on the neck and such.
A) Downplaying the body horror and gore in favor of more bizarre descriptive horror stuff - no one is eviscerated and tortured leaving behind a blood spattered room but they might get thier bones baked into bread by an ogre or have their eyes turned into pearls by a fairy.
B) Everything is willing to chat - though they may not be reasonable. Everything wants something and pacts, agreements, curses and such work very well.
C) More powerful entities have strange hidden weaknesses - ogres that are unbeatable in combat but afraid of mice, dragons missing a scale on the neck and such.
Folklore is to Action Figure as Fairy Tale is Doll.
But, seriously, I like to think that there are half remembered truths, visceral things, that an adventure can appeal to. When elements touch that I tend to label them folklore/fairy tale. Maiden/Mother/Crone, and so on. Things come in three. Either culturally or biologically (there are bears in dark places ...) when those CLICK it can be great. You suddenly get a whole additional context brought in to play that springs to mind for the DM and players. Note the future project called "Mythology."
But, seriously, I like to think that there are half remembered truths, visceral things, that an adventure can appeal to. When elements touch that I tend to label them folklore/fairy tale. Maiden/Mother/Crone, and so on. Things come in three. Either culturally or biologically (there are bears in dark places ...) when those CLICK it can be great. You suddenly get a whole additional context brought in to play that springs to mind for the DM and players. Note the future project called "Mythology."
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Fairy tales follow a story logic that we recognize in an emotional sense, not an intellectual sense. Characters behave according to their archetype, not their psychology. Science is irrelevant, all phenomena are explained according to their symbolism and their place in the collective unconscious.
I'm writing this so I don't forget.
I used to refer to this as a kind of genetic memory. When your writing invokes certain things you get a bunch of players/dm reactions for free. If you recognize something as evocative of Aliens (the movie), or almost recognize it as such that you don't know its from there but some part of you, emotionally, makes the connection, then suddenly you've overloaded your communication, to the DM or from the DM to the players, in an awesome way. Everything then comes loaded with the baggage, good and bad, from that. Folklore/fairy tales or something from pop culture. It's also easy to ham-hand it.
I like the way Beoric states that it's recognized from an emotional sense. I need to steal that.
Caves used to have bears in them. A dark forbidding opening in the earth that is evocative of that gets to rely on that to become much much more than the raw designer or DM description.
I used to refer to this as a kind of genetic memory. When your writing invokes certain things you get a bunch of players/dm reactions for free. If you recognize something as evocative of Aliens (the movie), or almost recognize it as such that you don't know its from there but some part of you, emotionally, makes the connection, then suddenly you've overloaded your communication, to the DM or from the DM to the players, in an awesome way. Everything then comes loaded with the baggage, good and bad, from that. Folklore/fairy tales or something from pop culture. It's also easy to ham-hand it.
I like the way Beoric states that it's recognized from an emotional sense. I need to steal that.
Caves used to have bears in them. A dark forbidding opening in the earth that is evocative of that gets to rely on that to become much much more than the raw designer or DM description.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
The word you are looking for is "instinct".
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
My take on the fairy tale feel:
1. Assume human-level (or higher) intelligence and ability to act for everything from animals to objects to forces of nature, but don't assume human-like behaviour or reasons to act.
In many fairy tales animals, objects and even fundamental forces of the world (time, the west wind, the sun) can and will speak to anyone willing to talk to them. They are generally on the same level of intelligence as humans, in some cases clearly above. Yet in most cases they are still "true to their nature" so to speak ... so you shouldn't assume humanlike beahviour or even reasons for their doing that would make sense to a normal human.
The west wind may speak to you and treat you like a friend, but in the end its only interest is blowing across the world, uprooting trees and destroying houses. The hedgehogs in the forrest will give you information, but in the end they are hedgehogs and know nothing of the bigger world.
2. One of the core foundations of the world is the "Trade".
Everything is tradable ... everything. You can give your eyesight for 10 years of life, your laughter for the ability to see ghosts or your heart for a potion of invisibility. If you find the right being you can trade nearly everything for everything else. The price is seldom gold or stuff humans would recognize as valuable ... but rather abstract concepts, abilties, body parts or parts of the self.
In such trades your word is binding ... breaking it can have dire consequences, even when no one shpuld be able to know you broke your word ... the world knows ... always.
There are beings who are bound by ancient laws to take certain trades ... the bridge troll must let anyone pass who pays its price.
3. Another core foundation is the "Name" of things.
Words have power, names even more so. Everything has a name and one who knows somethings name has power over it. Dragons must grant you one wish if you speak their true name or they may never harm you. Ghost can be banished by their name and event the stones may follow your command if you speak their names. Your own name holds power also, so you better protect it.
4. There is seldom direct danger, but always a looming threat.
In most fairy tales there is no direct danger or rather there is danger but it is seldom of the hurt, blood & broken bones kind. Children or protagonists may get hurt but that is always minor stuff. What is always there is a looming threat of some kind. The witch may bake the children, the wolf may eat the girl, the hero may get lost in the woods or turned into a frog.
So instead of concentrating on the fights and direct danger, concentrate on fleshing out the threat in the background. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be fights, but it should always be clear, that the big threat is still there.
5. Everything and everyone is always polite and follows the rules of etiquette ... at first.
This ties into point 1, point 2 and even point 3 a bit. If everything is intelligent, there are rules for trading everything and names and words carry power ... then it is better to tread carefully around new acquaintances. Who knows what they can do, who knows what they know? Maybe the wanderer is an old god? Maybe these children know someancient secret?
So everyone will try to gauge the threat level and knowledge of new beings they meet, acting unfailingly polite the whole time. Only when they know enough to act or have no other way will the mask drop and the claws come out.
6. Innocence is one of the most powerful forces.
In many fables and fairy tales the hero is either innocent or at least naive in a charming way. Trough this innocence the heroes are able to overcome the challenges of the story and emerge victorious. Most of the time they change the world for the better this way and achieve wealth, honor, fame or love. Think about the boy in "The Emperor's new clothes" who is the only one not corrupted by power or paralyzed by fear.
Placing something innocent in your story will greatly enhance the fairy tale vibe.
7. There is a narrative structure to the world
This is a bit elusive but it basically boils down to this: The game world itself wants to tell a good story.
So you cannot defeat the ogre in combat but you can banish him because he is afraid of mice (thanks Gus )
Like two orcs wrote, fairy tales contain basic wisdom on how to act or how to treat the unknown. They are warnings and manuals how to act when in danger, what to do and what not to do.
So you can assume, that your game world itself wants to tell a good story. Hidden clues, missing scales on dragons backs, random strangers you were kind to becoming important later on.
Like Beoric wrote, Fairy tales follow their own logic ... it's just not the logic of science but the logic of emotion and storytelling.
8. Use Archetypes and cultural images
This ties into point 7. Every culture has recurring images and archetypes in their history. The noble knight, the thief with a heart of gold, the clever old woman ... smarts beat brawn, love cancels hate, innocence conquers cynicism (see point 6).
What may seem trite and simple, even cliche in normal settings and stories can greatly enhance the feel of a fairy tale adventure.
These are my core points I try to keep in mind when I DM a fairy tale adventure.
1. Assume human-level (or higher) intelligence and ability to act for everything from animals to objects to forces of nature, but don't assume human-like behaviour or reasons to act.
In many fairy tales animals, objects and even fundamental forces of the world (time, the west wind, the sun) can and will speak to anyone willing to talk to them. They are generally on the same level of intelligence as humans, in some cases clearly above. Yet in most cases they are still "true to their nature" so to speak ... so you shouldn't assume humanlike beahviour or even reasons for their doing that would make sense to a normal human.
The west wind may speak to you and treat you like a friend, but in the end its only interest is blowing across the world, uprooting trees and destroying houses. The hedgehogs in the forrest will give you information, but in the end they are hedgehogs and know nothing of the bigger world.
2. One of the core foundations of the world is the "Trade".
Everything is tradable ... everything. You can give your eyesight for 10 years of life, your laughter for the ability to see ghosts or your heart for a potion of invisibility. If you find the right being you can trade nearly everything for everything else. The price is seldom gold or stuff humans would recognize as valuable ... but rather abstract concepts, abilties, body parts or parts of the self.
In such trades your word is binding ... breaking it can have dire consequences, even when no one shpuld be able to know you broke your word ... the world knows ... always.
There are beings who are bound by ancient laws to take certain trades ... the bridge troll must let anyone pass who pays its price.
3. Another core foundation is the "Name" of things.
Words have power, names even more so. Everything has a name and one who knows somethings name has power over it. Dragons must grant you one wish if you speak their true name or they may never harm you. Ghost can be banished by their name and event the stones may follow your command if you speak their names. Your own name holds power also, so you better protect it.
4. There is seldom direct danger, but always a looming threat.
In most fairy tales there is no direct danger or rather there is danger but it is seldom of the hurt, blood & broken bones kind. Children or protagonists may get hurt but that is always minor stuff. What is always there is a looming threat of some kind. The witch may bake the children, the wolf may eat the girl, the hero may get lost in the woods or turned into a frog.
So instead of concentrating on the fights and direct danger, concentrate on fleshing out the threat in the background. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be fights, but it should always be clear, that the big threat is still there.
5. Everything and everyone is always polite and follows the rules of etiquette ... at first.
This ties into point 1, point 2 and even point 3 a bit. If everything is intelligent, there are rules for trading everything and names and words carry power ... then it is better to tread carefully around new acquaintances. Who knows what they can do, who knows what they know? Maybe the wanderer is an old god? Maybe these children know someancient secret?
So everyone will try to gauge the threat level and knowledge of new beings they meet, acting unfailingly polite the whole time. Only when they know enough to act or have no other way will the mask drop and the claws come out.
6. Innocence is one of the most powerful forces.
In many fables and fairy tales the hero is either innocent or at least naive in a charming way. Trough this innocence the heroes are able to overcome the challenges of the story and emerge victorious. Most of the time they change the world for the better this way and achieve wealth, honor, fame or love. Think about the boy in "The Emperor's new clothes" who is the only one not corrupted by power or paralyzed by fear.
Placing something innocent in your story will greatly enhance the fairy tale vibe.
7. There is a narrative structure to the world
This is a bit elusive but it basically boils down to this: The game world itself wants to tell a good story.
So you cannot defeat the ogre in combat but you can banish him because he is afraid of mice (thanks Gus
)Like two orcs wrote, fairy tales contain basic wisdom on how to act or how to treat the unknown. They are warnings and manuals how to act when in danger, what to do and what not to do.
So you can assume, that your game world itself wants to tell a good story. Hidden clues, missing scales on dragons backs, random strangers you were kind to becoming important later on.
Like Beoric wrote, Fairy tales follow their own logic ... it's just not the logic of science but the logic of emotion and storytelling.
8. Use Archetypes and cultural images
This ties into point 7. Every culture has recurring images and archetypes in their history. The noble knight, the thief with a heart of gold, the clever old woman ... smarts beat brawn, love cancels hate, innocence conquers cynicism (see point 6).
What may seem trite and simple, even cliche in normal settings and stories can greatly enhance the feel of a fairy tale adventure.
These are my core points I try to keep in mind when I DM a fairy tale adventure.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
J'Accuse! I have always found instinct to be entirely emotionless.
Yora
Should be playing D&D instead
Do you mean ignorant or incorruptable? Or not having commited any misdemeanors?
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
@Yora:
All of it and nothing ... it depends really. This isn't a clear-cut black-white thing, but rather a scale of many levels of grey (like nearly everything is).
Innocence once lost can never be regained ... that threat is powerful.
Ignorant is maybe the closest to what I mean. But never in a spiteful way. Think again about Frodo: He is probably one of the more world-wise hobbits in the LotR but he is still very ignorant about the world at large. Yet he volunteered to carry the ring first to Rivendell and then even further into Mordor. One could argue that his ignorance, his inability to grasp the immensity of the task before him makes his decision stupid and less meaningful, but I rather think about it that way:
Even tough he doesn't know all the details, he knows that destroying the ring is the right thing to do. So he volunteered.
In this specific case Frodos ignorance acts as a sort of lense focusing the readers attention on Frodos better traits. He is a good man, who doesn't want others to suffer if he can help it. He wants to do the right thing, even at a cost to him ... even when he can't really understand what it may cost him.
Imagine Boromir in the same situation (at least "beginning of book" Boromir).
His innocence is one of the two traits why Gandalf thinks Hobbits are special and trusts Frodo so much (the other trait his the typical sturdyness of hobbits). Frodo is of course only so innocent because he grew up in the "save haven" of the shire. (The innocence of the shire as a whole acts in the same way towards the whole LotR story as does Frodos innocence towards the ring)
All of it and nothing ... it depends really. This isn't a clear-cut black-white thing, but rather a scale of many levels of grey (like nearly everything is).
The innocence i'm referring to isn't necessarily tied to any form of law-system or such stuff. Many heros in fair tales do "bad stuff" from the point of view of a judical system. But still they are innocent in that their motivation is pure and they don't want to do "bad stuff".Yora said:
Incorruptable is possible ... but I find it rather boring. Temptation is a big part of many stories about power after all. Think about how different Frodo would've been if he would've never been tempted by the ring. The corruption of something pure and innocent is a strong image that can be used to great effect. And it makes for one hell of a background threat too. Maybe the heroes have to protect something/someone innocent from corruption.Yora said:
Innocence once lost can never be regained ... that threat is powerful.
Ignorant is maybe the closest to what I mean. But never in a spiteful way. Think again about Frodo: He is probably one of the more world-wise hobbits in the LotR but he is still very ignorant about the world at large. Yet he volunteered to carry the ring first to Rivendell and then even further into Mordor. One could argue that his ignorance, his inability to grasp the immensity of the task before him makes his decision stupid and less meaningful, but I rather think about it that way:
Even tough he doesn't know all the details, he knows that destroying the ring is the right thing to do. So he volunteered.
In this specific case Frodos ignorance acts as a sort of lense focusing the readers attention on Frodos better traits. He is a good man, who doesn't want others to suffer if he can help it. He wants to do the right thing, even at a cost to him ... even when he can't really understand what it may cost him.
Imagine Boromir in the same situation (at least "beginning of book" Boromir).
His innocence is one of the two traits why Gandalf thinks Hobbits are special and trusts Frodo so much (the other trait his the typical sturdyness of hobbits). Frodo is of course only so innocent because he grew up in the "save haven" of the shire. (The innocence of the shire as a whole acts in the same way towards the whole LotR story as does Frodos innocence towards the ring)
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
J'accuse!
Survival instinct is 100% emotion, and that emotion is usually fear - it's how the body translates the hard-coded, genetically inherited instinct into a follow-up defensive/reactive action. In Bryce's example of how we are naturally wary of dark places, this is because our ancestors learned long ago that bears live in caves, came to fear bears, and then passed down their fear of bears onto us by making us wary of dark places. Likewise how we came to fear the death of offspring (or, more tailored to this conversation, "the innocent") so we instinctively move to protect them, or how we came to fear tigers hunting in the grass camouflaged by their stripes, so we instinctively came to develop pattern-recognition.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
J'Accuse!
What is the instinct to fly south? Pining for the beach?
If instinct is a behaviour that is hard-coded into your genetics, then your bear example is not a good one. People's reactions to bears are very much a product of socialization. Perhaps Europeans were socialized to fear bears, but indigenous North Americans had a very difference relationship with bears (and the wilderness in general). And many people who grow up in cities still feed bears and seem to see them as some sort of pet.
In my experience, in an emergency situation fear tends to come after the initial reaction. Fear during the crisis can be counterproductive, because it can cause panic or paralysis. On the other hand, fear of snakes is believed to be instinctive (although I'm not sure I buy it, also from personal experience). Squeamishness about certain things is probably instinctive, but I'm not sure I would classify that as an emotion the same way fear is.
So at most, what is being described may include some instincts, but it does not include all instincts, nor is it limited to instincts because it also includes socially constructed symbology.
What is the instinct to fly south? Pining for the beach?
If instinct is a behaviour that is hard-coded into your genetics, then your bear example is not a good one. People's reactions to bears are very much a product of socialization. Perhaps Europeans were socialized to fear bears, but indigenous North Americans had a very difference relationship with bears (and the wilderness in general). And many people who grow up in cities still feed bears and seem to see them as some sort of pet.
In my experience, in an emergency situation fear tends to come after the initial reaction. Fear during the crisis can be counterproductive, because it can cause panic or paralysis. On the other hand, fear of snakes is believed to be instinctive (although I'm not sure I buy it, also from personal experience). Squeamishness about certain things is probably instinctive, but I'm not sure I would classify that as an emotion the same way fear is.
So at most, what is being described may include some instincts, but it does not include all instincts, nor is it limited to instincts because it also includes socially constructed symbology.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
J'accuse!
Flying south is a survival instinct - it comes from a fear of freezing to death and being left behind by your group to fend for yourself (also a death sentence).
As for pining for the beach... that's not an instinct. We are not instinctively drawn to beaches, though we are emotionally drawn to them because they are pleasant and make us feel good.
Socialization is not the cause of instinctual fears; it is the trigger of them in many cases, and can lead to phobias and whatnot, but fear is a hard-coded product of survival, and a byproduct of what our minds can extrapolate of pain. In your bear example, socialization can cause a repression of a fear of bears in North Americans, but isn't responsible for the original fear - that's instinct. If a bear mauled a North American, no amount of peers being not scared of bears is going to make you relax around bears again.
Instinct causes us to be scared of a sudden barking dog even though the dog isn't going to hurt us. It causes us to be worried about being bitten by snakes even though humanity could eradicate all snakes on Earth if they wanted. It causes us to be uncomfortable watching spiders even if you watch them through a screen.
You can say fear happens after the experience, but what you don't realise is that it is only your perception of fear that kicks in after the experience. The fear is already there, under the surface. Your mind already fears the thing you are reacting to, why is why you reacted at all without awaiting analysis - if you waited until you felt the fear to act, you'd die before you could even process what was going on. Most of those fears are passed on by default, genetically. babies, for example, know to hold their breath if they are submerged in water - they didn't need to see someone do it, they just do it because they've inherited that survival instinct. They'll also panic and thrash around if that happens, because again instinct is causing them to fear drowning. This is instinct - this is what instinct does; it keeps you alive because your mind already fears something subconsciously. This is was the others in this thread allude to when they mean to play off instinctual emotions to develop compelling scenarios. The scenario is subconsciously eerie - you don't need to sit around and think about it to feel emotion about it.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm not sure where this fits in a fairy-tale discussion (perhaps not at all), but in few play sessions I knew I got the set-up right---be it through foreshadowing or just general creepy ambiance/tension---when the party completely over-reacted with fear, catching me off-guard. In one case it was reaching for and exhausting their most powerful magic items the split-instance the "lurking menace" finally manifested itself, and another was the panic to RUN! when the alarm went off during a minor jailbreak. In both cases, I think the set-up did most the work. There was nothing in a single stat-block that should have evoked such primal emotions. Instead, I think the game was connecting with the collective memories of the players and (like a good horror movie) they were scaring themselves beyond logic.
In the non-fear category, I had one of the players near tears saying good-bye to a long-time NPC that was about to depart and face a dangerous situation solo. It wasn't me as DM I can assure you, I believe the situation was just triggering pre-programed emotions.
It's these rare moments when the game transcends all structure and becomes almost palpable in the minds of the participants that are the best. As my youngest daughter once said to me years ago after we first started playing this strangest of all games, "Dad, I can SEE these places!".
In the non-fear category, I had one of the players near tears saying good-bye to a long-time NPC that was about to depart and face a dangerous situation solo. It wasn't me as DM I can assure you, I believe the situation was just triggering pre-programed emotions.
It's these rare moments when the game transcends all structure and becomes almost palpable in the minds of the participants that are the best. As my youngest daughter once said to me years ago after we first started playing this strangest of all games, "Dad, I can SEE these places!".