Best laid out non-dungeon module?

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
We are basically talking hubs vs. nodes at this point, the basis for all RPGs, be they videogames or tabletops. Following the connections, the spokes between them, makes the campaign. Those connections are the adventure. But this is RPG 101 stuff... stone-age design.

The natural evolution of the question originally posed is "what makes one hub more user-friendly than another"? For that, I believe we have to focus more on the connections between hub and nodes, rather than the content of the hubs and nodes themselves (which is subject to just standard layout best practices, a rehashed conversation).

A hub branches into spokes by its nature - so how can we arrange these spokes so that they stay out of each other's way (from a layout perspective), while simultaneously making them easily accessible at any time (as the players choose which spoke to follow)? How can we cluster them to cut page flipping while simultaneously ensuring that unrelated information doesn't bleed in to what the DM needs to know at the time he needs to know it? What is the best way to present this information in a way that the DM can organically thread them through the hub without being too intrusive or leading the players by the nose?

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I'm of the personal opinion that the most effective way to identify the best practices of modules is to look at the failings and to learn from them, rather than seeking out what is done well and copying it. Figuring out how to fix something broken is easy; figuring out the ideal approach from the get-go is much tougher.

To use an example of bad layout design, I'd put up Princes of the Apocalypse - it's a hub world with spokes connecting dungeon nodes together, but it's a poorly done hub. We can infer a lot of good lesson from PotAs problems.

First, WotC split up the hub across the book, so you have to page-flip even when dealing with the same area. I'd say that's a no-no.
Lesson learned: don't spread out your hub.

Furthermore, the spokes are all over the place, buried in the hub and not brought to the forefront of the DMs attention. Consequently you have to give everything the highlighter treatment and do a few read-throughs to grasp what's supposed to be going on.
Lesson learned: overviews of how things connect are important - the best supplemental tool I've seen for PotA was a very basic flowchart which outlined how the overworld hub connected to the dungeon nodes by way of the spokes (rumors, geography, factions, etc.), which was immensely helpful and should have been included from the start.

Another prime problem with the campaign (which the community identified immediately) was the tendency for players to accidentally wander into way overpowered (for their level) dungeons at a whim - no spoke control.
Lesson learned: spokes need to be wrangled, separated, curated, so that players don't follow them into nodes when they shouldn't be going into those nodes.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
Going back to this City discussion; I'm trying to remember where I saw rules for a wild night on the town. I feel like it was an OSR downtime thing. Can anyone help me?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I haven't seen Melan's table, but the problem with Jeff's and others I have seen is that the results are entirely independent of the decisions of the players, other than the decision to go "carousing" in the first place. It's like if the players decided to go to the Caves of Chaos, and the DM rolled on a d20 table to tell them who survived and how much loot they got.

My general view is if it is worth spending time on at all, it is worth playing. Now a lot of us who have been playing for a while probably are of the view that sitting around a table talking about your characters carousing isn't much fun, and that's fair. But the situations you end up in as a result of that can be interesting. Moreover, they should be influenced by the choices you have made - where you are drinking, who you are drinking with, what non-drinking activities are you partaking in. So you need a procedure that takes that into account. And thinking about it, I think Necropraxis' Hazrd Die mechanics would probably be a good start.

So you get your players to describe what a night out on the town looks like, and then roll a hazard die:

1 - Setback - roll on an encounter table for the area where they are drinking, that is who they managed to piss off, whether it be a drunk noble looking for a duel, thieves or assassin's looking to mug you on your way home, something more sinister hunting the night. Or maybe hooking up with that NPC ended up with a pregnancy, or parents looking to force a shotgun wedding.

2 - Fatigue - depending on what they are doing: gambling losses, encounter with guard (who will fine them/extract bribes for disorderly conduct if they are caught), get caught up in bar brawl (everything you break, you buy), targeted by pickpocket or other thief, start the next day's adventure down on HP.

3 - Expiration - you encounter one or more people who already has an opinion of you. Depending on who they are and what you do, someone who was pissed at you forgives you, or you lose favour with somebody. Or the night out was just what you needed to get over that nagging injury, or you've lost the Blessing of the Lady that you received in that last dungeon.

4 - Locality - PCs get to be drunk or hung over while trying to manage a major local event! Roll or choose an event appropriate to where they are drinking/sleeping it off. They get to enjoy dealing with a crisis while experiencing penalties on all their d20 rolls.

5 - Percept - encounter local gossip, informant or similar; play your cards right and get a rumor or other hook.

6 - Advantage - depending on choices made: blow off steam, wake up refreshed, start the next day's adventure with temporary hit points; win at gambling; opportunity to chat up/impress someone who will make a good contact/patron, or has that spell component you have been looking for, or is looking for a few good men.

That's off the top of my head. Six generalized options that you can riff off lets you tailor them to player choices, and many of them let you play the end of the PCs' evening instead of just narrating it. Maybe not as flavourful as 1d20 colourful events thought out in advance, but your players are playing instead of listening, and their choices matter, and some of these can drive future play.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
The Noctural Table is more like little mini adventure vinettes. You roll, something weird happens, (short or long) adventure begins. DM must wing it from there.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
The Noctural Table is more like little mini adventure vinettes. You roll, something weird happens, (short or long) adventure begins. DM must wing it from there.
Is it linked to what the players choose to do?
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
It's the intro only. Not what happens next. Random encounters in the city at night.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Still, you could take a few things from that and Jeff's table and make interesting, action specific subtables. It's something.

I suppose one should be careful to make sure your procedure is more likely to produce a favourable result than an unfavourable one, or there would be a mechanical disincentive to carouse.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
I also just realized, Courtney Campbell riffed on that table in "Downtime and Demesne".
But yeah, the whole thing is leaving me cold. I accept what @Beoric is saying that if it's worth rolling, it's worth playing out, but then that needs a much more fleshed out series of nested tables of Carousing activities and encounters. Conversely if I were to just accept that the players want to blow some cash and roll for the results, the tables also need to be meatier with regards to possible rewards to mitigate the risks (XP for GP is nice and all, but not very substantial and kind of 'gamey', especially for high level PC's (who are more likely to be dicking around in a city rocking the social game)).
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I've traditionally taken this ad-hoc approach to "carousing", and it's served my groups well:

1) Ask player what they want to do on their downtime.
2) Have the player roll a %die to determine how good or bad things go.
3) Resolve using improvised scenarios that reflect the badness/goodness/averageness of the % roll.

Bad rolls usually mean unwanted conflict and/or resource costs. Good rolls usually mean benefits in the form of new allies, resources, or just favorable experiences. Average rolls tend to be very utilitarian; the player accomplishes what they set out to do, but it leaves little lasting effects and provides no real bonuses or drawbacks. I suppose it would be beneficial to have all these possible scenarios in tabular format beforehand, but my games are improvised so I likewise improvise the results.

This is the same approach I use for overland travel, except the %die is rolled as a group rather than individually.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I've traditionally taken this ad-hoc approach to "carousing", and it's served my groups well:

1) Ask player what they want to do on their downtime.
2) Have the player roll a %die to determine how good or bad things go.
3) Resolve using improvised scenarios that reflect the badness/goodness/averageness of the % roll.

Bad rolls usually mean unwanted conflict and/or resource costs. Good rolls usually mean benefits in the form of new allies, resources, or just favorable experiences. Average rolls tend to be very utilitarian; the player accomplishes what they set out to do, but it leaves little lasting effects and provides no real bonuses or drawbacks. I suppose it would be beneficial to have all these possible scenarios in tabular format beforehand, but my games are improvised so I likewise improvise the results.

This is the same approach I use for overland travel, except the %die is rolled as a group rather than individually.
I agree that some degree of improv is likely necessary for carousing, since there are a wide variety of actions that can be taken, and nested tables are likely to leave something out if they try to define things too precisely.

I think overland travel benefits from more defined procedures, however, because there are fewer approaches (basically, direction of travel and time of day), and you can use tables to manage your unconscious biases (or am I the only one who has those?).
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Should be a robust rumor table to add seeds for 1-4 new adventure ideas. A village...maybe its all about 1 adventure (but that can feel railroadish) but gleaning info is good. I could see it being a fun occurrence that happens once in awhile...sorta like the Deck of Many Things--"ok people, we will run the Carousel Table tonight...."
This is one of those rare instances where a character's backstory could come in handy and be a tool for the DM, but I won't divulge into that since that's not a popular subject around here or other OSR forums apparently.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm not going to lie, I mostly hate running cities, Sigil being an exception. I'm playing in a Ptolus campaign and running a Barrowmaze campaign atm. The Ptolus guy needed a break which is usually cool because Barrowmaze is a town'n down through and through and always ready to run. BUT, I'd made the mistake at the end of the last session of letting the guys head off to Ironguard Motte (a large town of 1700ish) to follow up on a side-quest for the party thief...who was absent for this session. So there I was in a poorly detailed mid-sized settlement, far from the megadungeon, without the key PC and literally 1 hr to prep.
It didn't go well.
Fortunately we were all blasted from a week of eternal lockdown and had drinks and chatted. But yeah, it was bad.
I've got a little time this weekend, I need to dig up some low-key town shit to do while we wait for the guy who plays the thief to sort out his work-life balance (thanks Covid). I'm finding a lot of the big-city stuff inappropriate. I was hoping to just play out a big night on the town with a couple of interesting challenges and one or two resulting hooks, rumours and consequences that I could tie back into the ongoing campaign and I was hoping to accomplish that without locking myself away from the family for 8 hrs.
Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt. lol
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I mostly hate running cities, Sigil being an exception
Ah I'm right there with you - my group is bouncing around between Sigil and Hell right now (I'm making the Hells especially tough on them), and it's great to just riff with a city environment where the denizens are wholly alien to the party. It lets you pull off anything.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
Let me know when you solve that puzzle. :)
Solved by only locking myself away for 6.5 hrs!

I'm going to take a crack at this Big Night Out thing myself and report back. I'm going to split it into a Point Crawl for people who want to play it out and a table for people who just want to take a roll at the wheel of fortune. I get it, the point of the the thing is to rationalize the old-school expenditure of GP for XP between adventures, but there need to be more substantial results for the activity.
 
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