B/X differences

[The1True]

There are actually a couple of interesting adventures for Masters Set that might be worth looking at for those stumbling into the epic levels in their campaigns, but yeah, the Immortal rules always seemed a bit like an afterthought.

We've had one or two ambitious characters achieve apotheosis as a sort of epilogue to a long campaign. I've even included them as demigods or minor deities in later campaigns usually as cameos or Easter eggs.
I did try once to run a sort of Multiversal, Secret Wars sort of thing and brought some beloved epic level characters back for an appearance in a new campaign. Like the PC's actions were affecting events in the wider multiverse and overlapping with the schemes of demi-gods and eternal heroes. The narrative went back and forth between the new, intermediate level PC's and the old, epic level (one of them an immortal) PC's. It was pretty engaging, but soon descended into chaos as one would expect. I think I made the cardinal sin of imagining an overarching plot.

People complain a lot about the rails on high level adventures. Dungeons with anti-teleport walls etc. But Superman is frequently motivated by kryptonite, Green Lantern by something yellow, the crew of the Enterprise are frequently baffled by atmospheric interference; the characters wake up butt naked in A4, and I see nothing wrong with any of that. Here are the rules of the current challenge; work within them.

 

[Beoric]

People complain a lot about the rails on high level adventures. Dungeons with anti-teleport walls etc. But Superman is frequently motivated by kryptonite, Green Lantern by something yellow, the crew of the Enterprise are frequently baffled by atmospheric interference; the characters wake up butt naked in A4, and I see nothing wrong with any of that. Here are the rules of the current challenge; work within them.

Comics and RPGs are different media with different needs, but in particular:

1. Nerfing innate abilities granted by the author's fiat is not the same as nerfing abilities that players have put a lot of effort into acquiring.
2. Weaknesses like kryptonite are generally a localized phenomenon, often brought out in circumstances where the hero ought to have seen it coming. The rest of the time the powers work fine. Whereas nerfs in high level modules often impact powers over an entire building or dungeon, sometimes a whole region, and are not avoidable or mitigated by clever play. And if every high level module does it, you may as well not even have the ability.
   

A4 is not without controversy, but I think it works in a standalone or tournament setting because the nerf happens "off-screen" and before play even begins. If you are running it as a campaign, the issue isn't the start of A4 so much as the end of A3.

 

[squeen]

Through a strange twist of XP and magical level-leaps, all of the PCs are now 10th-level and they saunter around like demi-gods. The gating/teleportation abilities from various sources permits huge swathes of challenges to be by-passed instead of slogged through.

I just let it happen, but it takes some getting used to.

Pretty soon, they will be visiting the moon riding on a giant lunar moth (a la Doctor Doolittle) once they make it to its egg-laying spot on Earth.

While there is air in my D&D's outer space, I'm taking some inspiration from Lovecraft's Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath and Gilliam's Baron Munchausen so everything else will be pretty odd.

 

[The1True]

Nerfing innate abilities granted by the author's fiat is not the same as nerfing abilities that players have put a lot of effort into acquiring.

I think I fundamentally disagree with this.
I think to understand epic level play, the best thing to do is to look to superheroes and science fiction. Your characters are for all intents and purposes, gods among mortals, their powers unmatched. You can play your day-to-day campaign without rails, allowing the players to use their well-earned abilities to hand-wave challenges that lesser mortals would need armies, vast fortunes, or decades of labour to resolve. Real challenge comes in the form of protecting the vulnerable moving pieces of your machinations; your subjects/schemes/infrastructure/projects etc. It's very difficult to write a one-size-fits-all adventure for that, as has been discussed at length.

But just like in the comics or the sf franchise, once in a while, a challenge comes along that tests the core character, stripping away the jumble of special powers and tools they have accumulated. That's what a high-level adventure should be. That's not DM fiat, that's high-level opposition knowing and preparing itself for a godlike enemy, or a natural/supernatural event that strips away all the lazy shortcuts the PC's have become used to.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Whereas nerfs in high level modules often impact powers over an entire building or dungeon, sometimes a whole region, and are not avoidable or mitigated by clever play. And if every high level module does it, you may as well not even have the ability.

This is kinda debatable, and IMHO is most subject to the author's skills.

While OGs like Gygax pulled some cheap moves like "the skeletons all wear anti-turning amulets, so they can't be turned!", I believe those kinds of moves have fallen greatly out of favor (or at least they should be), and a more adept modern author would have just substituted the anti-turning amulets (or whatever convoluted handicap the DM wants to lay upon the party) for a more natural solution (like homebrewed creatures that are inherently harder to circumvent - for instance, "green skeletons that are a product of all this hazardous moss around here, so they are technically more plant than undead and won't be turned", or what have you).

A lazy author says "Passwall doesn't work here"; a good author designs his dungeon so that a single Passwall doesn't negate the whole challenge. That way nothing needs gimping, and the "usual tools" at the players' disposal will be re-examined without using all the shoehorned, crippling handicaps that force alternatives.

 

[squeen]

My old DM had an amazing knack for turning your strength into a weakness. Nearly everything had unintended consequences.

You'd use passwall only to find out later that somehow you where now trapped inside a place you now desperately want to escape. He wasn't malicious or cruel. There was no ego involved. Whimsical, he had a jolly, genuine, laugh, and truly loved seeing us repeatedly shoot ourselves in the foot with unpredictable magic and grandiose plans.

A genius of the game.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Classic DM trick.

"You search the room after your fight - you find a bunch of burned scrolls and a useless charred book of spells, because you decided to use a fireball to fight a bunch of spiders before checking their webbing".

 

[Beoric]

I think I fundamentally disagree with this.
I think to understand epic level play, the best thing to do is to look to superheroes and science fiction. Your characters are for all intents and purposes, gods among mortals, their powers unmatched. You can play your day-to-day campaign without rails, allowing the players to use their well-earned abilities to hand-wave challenges that lesser mortals would need armies, vast fortunes, or decades of labour to resolve. Real challenge comes in the form of protecting the vulnerable moving pieces of your machinations; your subjects/schemes/infrastructure/projects etc. It's very difficult to write a one-size-fits-all adventure for that, as has been discussed at length.

But just like in the comics or the sf franchise, once in a while, a challenge comes along that tests the core character, stripping away the jumble of special powers and tools they have accumulated. That's what a high-level adventure should be. That's not DM fiat, that's high-level opposition knowing and preparing itself for a godlike enemy, or a natural/supernatural event that strips away all the lazy shortcuts the PC's have become used to.

I think you misunderstand me. Nerfing an ability, say teleport, in one area of one module, or even in the whole of one module, is what part of what I meant by "localized". If every area of every module nerfs teleport, there was no point in the player acquiring teleport in the first place.

This is kinda debatable, and IMHO is most subject to the author's skills.

While OGs like Gygax pulled some cheap moves like "the skeletons all wear anti-turning amulets, so they can't be turned!", I believe those kinds of moves have fallen greatly out of favor (or at least they should be), and a more adept modern author would have just substituted the anti-turning amulets (or whatever convoluted handicap the DM wants to lay upon the party) for a more natural solution (like homebrewed creatures that are inherently harder to circumvent - for instance, "green skeletons that are a product of all this hazardous moss around here, so they are technically more plant than undead and won't be turned", or what have you).

A lazy author says "Passwall doesn't work here"; a good author designs his dungeon so that a single Passwall doesn't negate the whole challenge. That way nothing needs gimping, and the "usual tools" at the players' disposal will be re-examined without using all the shoehorned, crippling handicaps that force alternatives.

Again, I don't have an issue with limited or localized nerfs. Rebuilding monsters is a limited or localized nerf. Building a dungeon so it isn't defeated by a particular spell isn't a nerf, while still allowing the spell to be cast and fuction normally, is not a nerf at all.

My old DM had an amazing knack for turning your strength into a weakness. Nearly everything had unintended consequences.

I do love it when you can pull this off.

Classic DM trick.

"You search the room after your fight - you find a bunch of burned scrolls and a useless charred book of spells, because you decided to use a fireball to fight a bunch of spiders before checking their webbing".

I do this too.

 

[squeen]

Bias confirmation feels good. I put it in the B/X intentionally.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Bruh, really? Now you're just being deliberately inflammatory.

I was DMing AD&D when I was 10-years-old; let's not pretend this is rocket science. It is a game, mostly for children.

 

[squeen]

It is a game, mostly for children.

Yes, since the B/X revamp.
(scampers away giggling...)

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Squeen, you strike me as the type of guy who still does long division simply because it was first way you learned. Then you're all "Curse you, newfangled calculators giving me decimals instead of a remainder - curse you!"

 

[squeen]

...maybe.

But I'm also pretty decimal comfy. Been programing since 1980. Two worlds.