AD&D is obsolete, Round 2?
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I don't think any of that has anything to do with metagaming. Treasure = XP is a proxy for Goal Achievement = XP, in a game that assumes the goal of the PCs is to gain treasure. It counts as experience all of the things that you do in order to achieve that goal that are not measurable under 1e. The mechanic encourages players to have the same goals as their characters. That is not metagaming.
Getting XP from combat, when combat is what your character is improving at, is also not metagaming.
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
I'd print off the appendices in the back no matter what they were playing. Stuff like the dungeon generator, dungeon dressing, random lists of herbs and trap ideas are all really good. Personally, I have basically no interest in AD&D 1e beyond those, and wouldn't use it to teach new folks. My recommendations for new folks coming to the hobby are mostly to pick up OSE / Red Tide / Yoon Suin and try something using those (then get the Crimson Pandect and An Echo Resounding once you need them).
EOTB
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Most people I know would say dividing treasure based on who would level as a result, instead of equally or based on what characters did in the adventure it was earned, is metagaming. If others don't feel it is, that's fine too. But I can't carry that definition outside of this conversation because I'd had way too many people declare it was. So I'm happy to simply own the label.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Right. The AD&D DMG
I note a DM could also cook the training costs to account for this; making training cost more for characters who did less to level is at least as fair as assessing it based on how closely the DM thinks they adhered to their alignment. So they level faster because they spend more tie and money on training, and you have associated the potentially dissociative mechanic.
You are right, that could be metagaming, although I could also think of various in-game justifications for it depending on the split, especially if you use the training rules. If the PCs are levelling because of training, having extra cash to pay training costs is a reasonable proxy.
I note a DM could also cook the training costs to account for this; making training cost more for characters who did less to level is at least as fair as assessing it based on how closely the DM thinks they adhered to their alignment. So they level faster because they spend more tie and money on training, and you have associated the potentially dissociative mechanic.
Johann
*eyeroll*
I have lost all stomach for fighting. EOTB is right, both here and in the parent thread, when he questions the point of criticising a system one doesn't personally need or play. Dangerous Puhson was (and is) carrying a torch for 5e, which is different, and is doing so surrounded by old-school gamers, which is pretty amazing. I think you guys are a merry, witty and gracious bunch.
I apologize for my attack on AD&D. It was uncalled for. The game obviously sings for some people and that is enough to give it relevance. When people are still using something as old as AD&D, I should assume there are good reasons (and maybe ask about them in the spirit of learning).
I apologize for my attack on AD&D. It was uncalled for. The game obviously sings for some people and that is enough to give it relevance. When people are still using something as old as AD&D, I should assume there are good reasons (and maybe ask about them in the spirit of learning).
Beek Gwenders
*eyeroll*
The perfect description of the type of character that become the norm following 2e.Beek Gwenders
*eyeroll*
Beek Gwenders
*eyeroll*
Yes. As far as D&D and its variants go, my kids will be exposed to old school versions first (or nice retroclone at least); they can make their own decision to play other other games on their own. 3e and later are not D&D to me, they are just a house rules version put together by a corporation that have the D&D name on the front because WotC owns the IP. I’m sure they’re fun if they’re your sort of thing, but when I play a non-D&D fantasy game I would never choose these over anything like DCC. Aside from all the other cool things in DCC, it cements itself firmly in the collective ‘fantasy consciousness’ of Appendix N, is unmistakenly old school in its character creation process, character power levels and deadliness. A much, much better offering than 5e in my book.
gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
Best to continue the honesty.
"Dangerous Puhson was (and is) carrying a torch for 5e, which is different, and is doing so surrounded by old-school gamers, which is pretty amazing."
That's not accurate and he's not amazing. 5e already has a bonfire; it's far more popular than 1e. He's not carrying a torch. What he's doing is deliberately throwing fire crackers at a harmless OSR community to instigate the kind of arguments/fights you suddenly eschew. Nobody here hates 5e. Nobody here is trying to convert anybody from 5e. Nobody here is excluding DP. He, on the other hand, relentless attacks early editions because he enjoys instigating fights (online) where none need exist.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
No lie, I would rather have a horse.
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
Still pissy over that design contest, eh gandalf? You take shit way too personally, and these kind of sleights against me are getting pretty damned tactless.
Plus Johann's 100% truthful in his statement - I am carrying a torch for 5e, and I am doing so while surrounded by old-school gamers.
Where is he wrong?
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Slight segue here talking about the XP for GP thing:
I'm running Barrowmaze, modding it on the fly for our 3.5e characters. We're having a blast.
I told them that we'd be deriving XP from treasure and less of a % from monsters slain. So far that's been working out alright.
But here's the thing, these guys have been staggering back to town under the weight of these 1e-sized hoards (yes I'm being a stickler about encumbrance in this regard). They're 3rd-4th lvl PC's and they've got a fortune they could realistically expect to retire on. They are literally going to destroy the economy of the humble village of Helix. How the hell am I supposed to keep the PC's from tooling up with all the best equipment, buying property and generally pushing the local authorities around. I expect this crap at name-level, but not this early on!
Is there a 1e mechanic for bleeding PC's of their cash that I've forgotten?
I'm running Barrowmaze, modding it on the fly for our 3.5e characters. We're having a blast.
I told them that we'd be deriving XP from treasure and less of a % from monsters slain. So far that's been working out alright.
But here's the thing, these guys have been staggering back to town under the weight of these 1e-sized hoards (yes I'm being a stickler about encumbrance in this regard). They're 3rd-4th lvl PC's and they've got a fortune they could realistically expect to retire on. They are literally going to destroy the economy of the humble village of Helix. How the hell am I supposed to keep the PC's from tooling up with all the best equipment, buying property and generally pushing the local authorities around. I expect this crap at name-level, but not this early on!
Is there a 1e mechanic for bleeding PC's of their cash that I've forgotten?
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
IIRC, the admonition was to find creative ways to separate PCs from their cash. I don't remember all of them, but training is expensive. 1000 to 4000 gp per character level, each time you level, no levelling up until you have trained, which takes 1-4 weeks. Its pretty easy to justify in 3e; how are they learning new feats or gaining class features if not from training? You could just make the cost of training be the difference between expected wealth by level, and what they are actually taking out of the dungeon, and be done with it.
Also, taxes. The local lord levies a hefty tax on loot since the dungeon is on his lands and it his resource.
Also, inflation. They have made the locals rich, but there are the same number of goods to buy. Add a zero to the cost of everything.
Also, moving the campaign. The PCs can't buy much in the sleepy village, and can't sell their gems jewelry and art objects there for anything like their value, and can't find tutors high enough level to train them. Wizards can't find new spells, or spell components. They will have to go to a metropolis to unload their hauls and find equipment.
Also, laws. If your setting is feudal, they can't buy land, they obtain it by becoming vassals of either the local lord or the king. Who, under the circumstances, may charge a hefty price. Plus fines when the PCs inevitably break the law.
Also, criminals. How are they storing all that loot? Is it on their person at all times? All the money they are throwing around is attracting rogues and scoundrels. When they sleep with the local farmgirls, and wake up to find a bag of rubies gone, what are they going to do about it?
Also, tough monsters. Many monsters in older modules were willing to let the party go in return for large bribes. 20-200 bandits plus high level leader types can also be persuasive.
The whole flavour was easy come, easy go. It was so easy to get so much cash, in theory the players weren't too pissed when they lost it all and had to start again.
EOTB
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Embrace it.
Here's a good blog post describing just letting it play out.
If Your Torches Burn for only One Hour your NPCs will be More Important
In the Seaward campaign the PCs formed an adventuring company, got a charter from the King, bought an old inn as a home base and, most rec...
harbingergames.blogspot.com
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Yes, training was a BIG deal and quite expensive. It was meant to be the big money drain. I didn't realize that until later.
It also had a considerable effect on the development of the game. Ed Greenwood would often write that into his fluffy histories for his new magic items when he wrote for Dragon. The positive reaction his articles were getting were why TSR ended up buying the Forgotten Realms from him.
(OTOH I suppose you can blame the Forgotten Realms partially on the cost for training, which is one more hit against it)
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
You know, that is exactly the kind of thing I have in mind when I think about domain play.Here's a good blog post describing just letting it play out.
If Your Torches Burn for only One Hour your NPCs will be More Important
In the Seaward campaign the PCs formed an adventuring company, got a charter from the King, bought an old inn as a home base and, most rec...
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Holy hell, I was like 'bla bla bla tl/dr' and then bam it all tied up in this beautiful little bow at the end! Nice link!
I keep dreaming I'll get resource management to work one of these days, but I always end up chickening out in the end. Time keeping and book keeping require a great deal of commitment and diligence that my group doesn't really have. And. I'm going to shoot myself in the foot and say it; 3e (and I suspect subsequent versions) provide too many shortcuts. Although, to be fair, there were bags of holding and most magic weapons had a 30' radius glow that did away with serious encumbrance and resource problems in 1e as well...