5e - why you think it sucks, and why you're wrong
- Thread starter DangerousPuhson
- Start date
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Yep, found my copy of the PHB and confirmed this.
His wording in that letter isn't the greatest. He is, after all, implying that no female has had the dexterity of Houdini or the constitution of Rasputin.
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
I tend to like parsimony, so when it comes to demihumans I'm fine with very very few (types and numbers) with clear thematically-robust distinctions in their psychology, abilities, and culture, or a kind of flat pluralism in which everyone is basically humans with rubber masks and individual / cultural distinctions operate on different lines, but not most of the middle positions between those. My second least favourite thing to roleplay out is the "Wow! An elf!" stock scene I saw all too often in my youth (my least favourite is the same scene but "Wow! A wizard!").
EOTB
So ... slow work day? Every day?
Clearly, you should write in to Dragon and rebut him. And then have his twitter account shut down.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
I'd consider it, maybe, if it was 1980 and not 2020. Then again I'm impressed that he didn't reply like other people did "the lower strength is balanced by the fact that female characters can give birth." Umm....
(also it is interesting to note that this same sort of debate flared up again in Dragon's pages when 3rd edition arrived on the scene).
Lol. Good lord, why would I want to do that? I'd be interested in dialogue not censorship. Also I'm probably too old school for Twitter. I'll leave the twatting to you.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
It's true, isn't it? Everyone wants to play the cool stuff. Gary's solution was to impose level limits and things like that. That's better than ICE's MERP at least. IIRC that had a table where you rolled your race.
Johann
*eyeroll*
This is one of the best smackdowns of AD&D I've seen on the 'net (including its spirited defense). Bookmarked!
Your heroic battle is appreciated, DP (says someone who wouln't touch 5e with a ten foot pole -- but much less play unmodified AD&D).
"Last of all, Dangerous Puhson stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and grinded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the grognards of Gygax but did not wither, and each time that he slew he cried: 'Aurë entuluva! D&D has come again in the form of 5e!'"
/lurk
Your heroic battle is appreciated, DP (says someone who wouln't touch 5e with a ten foot pole -- but much less play unmodified AD&D).
"Last of all, Dangerous Puhson stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and grinded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the grognards of Gygax but did not wither, and each time that he slew he cried: 'Aurë entuluva! D&D has come again in the form of 5e!'"
/lurk
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Oh, you'll fit in just fine.
gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
Meh, it's really just a lot of wasted energy. He's constantly repeating the obvious. Yes inverted AC is inefficient. Yes the game has evolved. But we already know that because we're party to that evolution. I, for example, first played in the 1980s and was part of the D&D Next Playtest circa 2015. Yet, like many others, I still prefer older editions because they're more fun and less "bulky." It's got nothing to do with being a hipster or a dinosaur. And that points to the root of DPs "issues." He's constantly making erroneous assumptions about the audience here. It's telling that nobody is "standing alone" trying to "tear down" 5e. If that's the version you prefer, then have at it; and I won't fault you for it.
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Beek Gwenders
*eyeroll*
Talking about you and your experience getting to know the DMG?
If you’re interested, Questing Beast has been reading through the whole DMG on his youtube channel:
Essentially, as I see it, and which was touched upon by PrinceofNothing, is that AD&D (and OD&D and OSR retroclones) are essentially games for adults, while the newer games cater to a more childish mentality: In the older games, you have much less control of what type of character you want to and can play at character creation. Part of the challenge and fun is making do with what you’ve been handed (just like in real life). The newer versions, with character builds, less limitations etc. are about appeasing players and giving them what they want. 3E, 4E and 5E players are sort of like the Veruca Salts and Augustus Gloops of the RPG world, whereas OSR gamers are more like Charlie Buckets.
Now, seeing that we’re dealing with an escapist game where we go off and fight dragons, I can understand very well the mentality behind wanting to ‘do what you want’ in a fantasy game. Why limitations? This is about playing make-believe games where we can be heroes, right? What old-school versions will always have over new versions - and which is ingrained in their DNA - is the challenge that comes with limitations. This sort of game is not for everyone (especially if you’re young), and it certainly can’t be said to necessarily be the best game, but it does provide that kind of experience better than new versions and will have its niche because of that.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Easy there, Tex, them's fighting words.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Thanks for the link.
Yes. What you say about practicing the art of over-coming adversity under stress is the one messages I wanted to get across to my players. That D&D wasn't just a escapist release, it was a challenge to tackle. Before I learned how many liked-minded folk were out there, I imagined I was passing on secret knowledge to them about the game: i.e. it's better when it's hard. Losing and then picking yourself up and trying a again is much more rewarding (and long-term engaging) than wish-fulfillment. Being a one-shot magic-user that runs away is counter-intuitively Tons-o'-Fun.
Then I found the internet...and got lost in its Byzantine Maze of Illusions until I didn't even know what game I played. Now my rotting mental-corpse is typing these words in a 17 page long Thread About Nothing. (...and former lurkers are poking at me with word-sticks.)
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gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
"The newer versions, with character builds, less limitations etc. are about appeasing players and giving them what they want. 3E, 4E and 5E players are sort of like the Veruca Salts and Augustus Gloops of the RPG world."
Very true. The last time I played 5e, my halberd-wielding, 1st level cleric brought down a lightening bolt to smite our foe. The last time I played 3e, it took so long to make characters that our "newbies" gave up on the game. All that variation really makes class unnecessary. You might has well just have a skill-based system. The whole point of class is definition to facilitate quick play. And, it's fun to not get what you want!
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
I don't get it -
Grognards: "Newer editions are so complex, too many player options, needs to be simpler!"
Also grognards: "Newer editions are for babies, everything is too simplified!"
Grognards: "Newer editions are so complex, too many player options, needs to be simpler!"
Also grognards: "Newer editions are for babies, everything is too simplified!"
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
It's because there's different forms of simplicity but people often lack the language to specify what kind of simplification they really mean. Some people just want fewer rules covering fewer situations; some people want a rationalised, uniform system with as few exceptions as possible; some people want mechanics or procedures that have a minimum number of subcomponents or steps. These are different desires, tho' they are all characterised in folk discourse as "simpler".