Yes, all of that is in the original vision of the product.
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The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
agreed. and literally SHOW when you can with sweet sweet diagrams! Some of us are visual learners.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
To add on to this, I think instead of picking some poor author's existing work to critique, it might be a good idea to write your own "bad descriptions" as examples, especially since it means being able to include all the talking points you want to address. Plus it might actually be kinda fun to purposefully design a crappy room key.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Sure, or pick on something bad from an otherwise excellent author who can survive the beat-down.
The intent is, for each section, to show two negative examples and one positive example, with commentary. And then, also, som pointers/footnotes to other resources like blgo articles , etc on the same issue
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
FTFY. Also, a lot of the WotC stuff has multiple authors so you can spread the blame around (and I think some of the newer stuff credits nobody other than the "Wizards RPG team").
Interesting. I was going to include real examples from published works, but, you all seem to agree that, at least for the negative examples (two per topic) I should not use real examples but make some up?
Grützi
Should be playing D&D instead
I agree with squeen that real examples are probably better and more powerful in showing faults and teaching better ways, though I imagine some "constructed" examples can serve you well.
The key point here is transparency and talking to people beforehand.
If you want to use someones dungeon/a part of someones work as a bad example you can at least extend him the courtesy of informing him/asking him beforehand. Some may say no, but I think if you explain your motives and such most people will help you out
For what it's worth:
You can use my stuff for bad examples anytime... and I can imagine helping with some bad examples.
Intentionally designing something bad is sometimes fun...
The key point here is transparency and talking to people beforehand.
If you want to use someones dungeon/a part of someones work as a bad example you can at least extend him the courtesy of informing him/asking him beforehand. Some may say no, but I think if you explain your motives and such most people will help you out
For what it's worth:
You can use my stuff for bad examples anytime... and I can imagine helping with some bad examples.
Intentionally designing something bad is sometimes fun...
Ok, I now have the basic organization structure of the book done.
I will now begin the first edit of my first draft. You should expect each section to be expanded upon, the cringe removed, and things moved around as I decide I don't like X, Y, or Z where they are.
I will now begin the first edit of my first draft. You should expect each section to be expanded upon, the cringe removed, and things moved around as I decide I don't like X, Y, or Z where they are.
Palindromedary
*eyeroll*
I think it's pretty easy to take real negative examples, change one or two names/items/whatever, and say your negative examples are based on real published works; this is a common practise, and considering your review history and general bonafides, no one is going to doubt you on this. The value is in the lesson, not that it reflects something 100% in existence. It's one thing to trash a bad adventure: that's just good targeted criticism. But I don't see the need to make multiple people the paragons of failure (unless they're generally held up to be good but are actually consistently bad, in which case you're rendering public service).
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
I'd be willing to look over your final draft to make comments/edits if I have time if you wish, perhaps even layout if needed as I could use the practice if you don't have anyone else in mind (some art would be cool!). I see this as an opportunity for your magnum opus and happy to help---uhh...despite what's written below.....
Rant on---
Yeah, I don't agree with everything you think or say, it all varies with edition and playstyle, and all that bullshit that has been argued about for years, BUT I think most who come around (including me) to read your reviews can understand/support the 'base rules or guidelines' that you are preaching. All your years of bitching (which isn't the best term here) CAN and SHOULD be expressed in this book and hopefully others can learn from it--and follow the advice (or they don't buy the book and can fuck off). My main opinion is you 100% need to write this book--it's TOTALLY needed!!!-- but here's my other opinions/thoughts, and do what you will:
1. Sure, go ahead and provide bad examples from publishers--but also recognize if they spent time to correct things from your recommendations--notify your readers!. For example, I know there have been other designers who have improved their adventure after a review but more close to home--Nevermore Mines got a luke-warm/shitty review. I spent 20+ hours making changes to it after your review and it was a learning experience to make it better--but...umm...WHO CARES? No one talks about it....downloading an update takes 5 seconds but its a pain in the ass...I barely do it myself and don't expect my customers to do it. Publishing a bad example in a book---shit man, talk about silencing a publisher's voice. Even if they make changes, are you going to update your book? Do they have room in your book to argue your thoughts/opinions?
OR...know what asshole?! Yea...I'm challenging you. You have bought and reviewed countless adventures....SURELY you can ad lib enough bad examples that you can make up on your own to discuss? Come on man....Put in some of your OWN SWEAT work just like you EXPECT from adventure designers and provide your own bad examples and keep the book positive, rather than negatively targeting publishers. Sure, you may feel entitled to quote bad examples from something you bought, I get it, but a BOOK silences people...it's a final word--you want this book to help designers, right? And you have such a plethora of examples and knowledge that you could ad lib to make your point.....but hey---if everyone wants to cut corners, then cool!!...maybe I'll sign up for Dyson Logos maps, insert stock art, and 3 gems 100 gp ea, and get on easy street for my adventures. I mean...you have stressed that us designers/writers should put in all this effort to create our adventures....FOR FREE...because we believe in them or whatever, but it's ok for you to cut corners? uh hmmm....*waggles finger*. Have you met Kettle? Just saying. Seems most who are arguing to use bad publisher examples above haven't published anything? Dark side Malrex in da house. Change my mind! Bottom line: Come up with your OWN shit examples for your own writing.
2. 'Bashing' an author on a blog is completely different than 'bashing' them in a book---it feels more permanent. Come on people... Having said that, go ahead and bash me in your writing cause I don't give a shit, but I could see others caring a great deal.
Look at your forum...forum posters jump into a dungeon writing contest because they KNOW they are going to get 'bashed' or judged (i.e. an opportunity to improve) and they usually learn something (and God bless em they embrace it)....and they have the opportunity to discuss/learn from the opportunity. Surprising a publisher by throwing them into a book as a bad example could bring some heartache, especially if they don't have the power to respond like in a forum. For example---if I reviewed Black Maw on my blog, that's one thing that people would see for 1-3 months or so then maybe disappear and forget about and would give you a avenue to disagree/etc....but if I included it in a book? No way for you to defend yourself? Would last a lot longer and if I didn't check in with you--would you be pissed? Some wouldn't be, but some would...Seriously...who knows in this day and age. But it would limit your power to disagree or give you a rebuttal as a publisher. Don't take the voice away from a publisher...make your own damn bad examples...I mean we already have our work on illegal download sites and you want to bend us over the barrel a tad more?
3. Give me a moment to be arrogant--I KNOW my shit is good--just like 99% of all forum posters and D&D players do about their own shit...I have it in my head that my adventure is the ultimate player experience, just like they all do!!! BUT being able to present the ideas to a stranger so they know its top shit and easy to use can be challenging for everyone and we can all fail at it. They can't get in my head. They aren't mind readers.
Focus on that...focus on presenting the adventure details so that someone else can run it. That's something I constantly say to my partners---'we don't have to play it this way, as it doesn't match our home rules, but we need to explain it to these base rules and then others can adapt it as they will."
I hope the book is about that and seems like it is?....There are so many people out there that have fantastic ideas...Don't bash creative ideas...bash the style of presenting those ideas. Assist with the style! I think that's your main focus, but want to hammer that home as I want this book to be useful! My opinion is that some designers don't want to reveal everything until the end---which works great for a novel, but not for someone who is trying to run an adventure--provide a DM summary. Talk about and STRESS the components to run the adventure effectively AT the table.
4. If you are going to preach good shit...then be prepared to SHOW what you are looking for (i.e. mind maps for towns, descriptions for 'large' caves, flow charts, etc.). I particularly would like to see your mind map idea example for a town or NPC cheat sheet. SHOW US!! I'd like to see examples of what you think are good maps....or good tables...SHOW us what you think is best--this is the area that's ok to potentially highlight some designers who are doing good--point your readers to GOOD examples, rather than bad. That's how I learned---looking at designers that you liked, adapting, changing, and moving on from there after reviewing their work. This keeps the overall book POSITIVE, rather than a negative bash fest where its harder for designers to defend themselves. SHOW us man....let us easily join your cult....
I don't mean to come off like a dick, as truly, I love you all, but as I hear and understand some of the other forum posters--getting feedback is awesome!!!, but when you publish something and people discuss on a forum--you got some room to discuss/defend yourself or your design choice...when it's a book--you got no room to say shit...it's permanent. Targeting bad publisher examples and throwing them in the dirt...
1. doesn't motivate new authors as it brings in a whole new intimidation factor
2. No way to defend yourself that's worth a damn, except writing your own rebuttal book? which, don't challenge me, as I'd do it.
3. Easily solved by providing own personal examples and uplifting publishers with good examples rather than staking them into the ground with bad ones---you have already done that in some blog reviews--that's what's it for...is a book for that too?
Bottom line: Are you trying to throw publishers under the bus with bad examples in your book....or is the main focus of your book just showing bad examples--and if that's the case, are you telling me you don't have any on your own? Come on man. The goal is to pave a path for designers to create great adventures so you don't have to keep reviewing shit..right? then don't point us at bad examples---point us to good ones.
Rant off--peace.
Rant on---
Yeah, I don't agree with everything you think or say, it all varies with edition and playstyle, and all that bullshit that has been argued about for years, BUT I think most who come around (including me) to read your reviews can understand/support the 'base rules or guidelines' that you are preaching. All your years of bitching (which isn't the best term here) CAN and SHOULD be expressed in this book and hopefully others can learn from it--and follow the advice (or they don't buy the book and can fuck off). My main opinion is you 100% need to write this book--it's TOTALLY needed!!!-- but here's my other opinions/thoughts, and do what you will:
1. Sure, go ahead and provide bad examples from publishers--but also recognize if they spent time to correct things from your recommendations--notify your readers!. For example, I know there have been other designers who have improved their adventure after a review but more close to home--Nevermore Mines got a luke-warm/shitty review. I spent 20+ hours making changes to it after your review and it was a learning experience to make it better--but...umm...WHO CARES? No one talks about it....downloading an update takes 5 seconds but its a pain in the ass...I barely do it myself and don't expect my customers to do it. Publishing a bad example in a book---shit man, talk about silencing a publisher's voice. Even if they make changes, are you going to update your book? Do they have room in your book to argue your thoughts/opinions?
OR...know what asshole?! Yea...I'm challenging you. You have bought and reviewed countless adventures....SURELY you can ad lib enough bad examples that you can make up on your own to discuss? Come on man....Put in some of your OWN SWEAT work just like you EXPECT from adventure designers and provide your own bad examples and keep the book positive, rather than negatively targeting publishers. Sure, you may feel entitled to quote bad examples from something you bought, I get it, but a BOOK silences people...it's a final word--you want this book to help designers, right? And you have such a plethora of examples and knowledge that you could ad lib to make your point.....but hey---if everyone wants to cut corners, then cool!!...maybe I'll sign up for Dyson Logos maps, insert stock art, and 3 gems 100 gp ea, and get on easy street for my adventures. I mean...you have stressed that us designers/writers should put in all this effort to create our adventures....FOR FREE...because we believe in them or whatever, but it's ok for you to cut corners? uh hmmm....*waggles finger*. Have you met Kettle? Just saying. Seems most who are arguing to use bad publisher examples above haven't published anything? Dark side Malrex in da house. Change my mind! Bottom line: Come up with your OWN shit examples for your own writing.
2. 'Bashing' an author on a blog is completely different than 'bashing' them in a book---it feels more permanent. Come on people... Having said that, go ahead and bash me in your writing cause I don't give a shit, but I could see others caring a great deal.
Look at your forum...forum posters jump into a dungeon writing contest because they KNOW they are going to get 'bashed' or judged (i.e. an opportunity to improve) and they usually learn something (and God bless em they embrace it)....and they have the opportunity to discuss/learn from the opportunity. Surprising a publisher by throwing them into a book as a bad example could bring some heartache, especially if they don't have the power to respond like in a forum. For example---if I reviewed Black Maw on my blog, that's one thing that people would see for 1-3 months or so then maybe disappear and forget about and would give you a avenue to disagree/etc....but if I included it in a book? No way for you to defend yourself? Would last a lot longer and if I didn't check in with you--would you be pissed? Some wouldn't be, but some would...Seriously...who knows in this day and age. But it would limit your power to disagree or give you a rebuttal as a publisher. Don't take the voice away from a publisher...make your own damn bad examples...I mean we already have our work on illegal download sites and you want to bend us over the barrel a tad more?
3. Give me a moment to be arrogant--I KNOW my shit is good--just like 99% of all forum posters and D&D players do about their own shit...I have it in my head that my adventure is the ultimate player experience, just like they all do!!! BUT being able to present the ideas to a stranger so they know its top shit and easy to use can be challenging for everyone and we can all fail at it. They can't get in my head. They aren't mind readers.
Focus on that...focus on presenting the adventure details so that someone else can run it. That's something I constantly say to my partners---'we don't have to play it this way, as it doesn't match our home rules, but we need to explain it to these base rules and then others can adapt it as they will."
I hope the book is about that and seems like it is?....There are so many people out there that have fantastic ideas...Don't bash creative ideas...bash the style of presenting those ideas. Assist with the style! I think that's your main focus, but want to hammer that home as I want this book to be useful! My opinion is that some designers don't want to reveal everything until the end---which works great for a novel, but not for someone who is trying to run an adventure--provide a DM summary. Talk about and STRESS the components to run the adventure effectively AT the table.
4. If you are going to preach good shit...then be prepared to SHOW what you are looking for (i.e. mind maps for towns, descriptions for 'large' caves, flow charts, etc.). I particularly would like to see your mind map idea example for a town or NPC cheat sheet. SHOW US!! I'd like to see examples of what you think are good maps....or good tables...SHOW us what you think is best--this is the area that's ok to potentially highlight some designers who are doing good--point your readers to GOOD examples, rather than bad. That's how I learned---looking at designers that you liked, adapting, changing, and moving on from there after reviewing their work. This keeps the overall book POSITIVE, rather than a negative bash fest where its harder for designers to defend themselves. SHOW us man....let us easily join your cult....
I don't mean to come off like a dick, as truly, I love you all, but as I hear and understand some of the other forum posters--getting feedback is awesome!!!, but when you publish something and people discuss on a forum--you got some room to discuss/defend yourself or your design choice...when it's a book--you got no room to say shit...it's permanent. Targeting bad publisher examples and throwing them in the dirt...
1. doesn't motivate new authors as it brings in a whole new intimidation factor
2. No way to defend yourself that's worth a damn, except writing your own rebuttal book? which, don't challenge me, as I'd do it.
3. Easily solved by providing own personal examples and uplifting publishers with good examples rather than staking them into the ground with bad ones---you have already done that in some blog reviews--that's what's it for...is a book for that too?
Bottom line: Are you trying to throw publishers under the bus with bad examples in your book....or is the main focus of your book just showing bad examples--and if that's the case, are you telling me you don't have any on your own? Come on man. The goal is to pave a path for designers to create great adventures so you don't have to keep reviewing shit..right? then don't point us at bad examples---point us to good ones.
Rant off--peace.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I dl all my updates. Usually you just click on the link in the email and voila. It'd be nice if people occasionally told me what's getting updated so I can decide if I want the new version or not.
dude, I get your concerns, but you don't think there are some pretty good Worst Evers and obvious shovel-wares out there that aren't fair game? Conversely, you don't think there are some confirmed masters out there guilty of the occasional lazy throwaway who's reputations can easily survive a gentle beating?
The thing is, real-world examples read so much more relatably than contrived ones. Like you can read it and see where you might have made a similar error, whereas madeup examples are often so on the nose that you don't put yourself in the author's place. You're more likely to be dismissive and think ,"oh yeah, obviously I'd never make that mistake myself".
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I think it's fine to "disguise" the example rather than point fingers, but the point I originally made was that synthetic examples will feel "forced", but saying they were based on "real world adventures" and slightly obscured to protect the publisher is WAY better. A hatch job is not necessary, but authenticity is.
I'm thinking. Or, trying to anyway. There is literally a jackhammer outside my window.
Real cites add weight, I think, but do shame. Artificial examples rely on my writing and I don't think do that well. I think right now I'm leaning towards some limited real real examples (Dungeon Magazine) for a few negative with the rest having their serial numbers rubbed off, and real cites for positive examples. 2 negative and 1 positive per section.
I'm still thinking about this. The examples section has derailed me in a major way three times so far. I'm not hoping for a fourth ...
Real cites add weight, I think, but do shame. Artificial examples rely on my writing and I don't think do that well. I think right now I'm leaning towards some limited real real examples (Dungeon Magazine) for a few negative with the rest having their serial numbers rubbed off, and real cites for positive examples. 2 negative and 1 positive per section.
I'm still thinking about this. The examples section has derailed me in a major way three times so far. I'm not hoping for a fourth ...
Attachments
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
The examples are, without a doubt, the heavy lifting. If you want this book to be great (and know we are all rooting for you), they will make-or-break this.
Approach them with the mindset that this is the necessary agony you must go through to give birth. This, more than writing paragraphs of generic blog-like philosophy, is why most human being will never write a book. The devil is in the details. It's isn't fun. It's not sexy.
BUT...
Imagine your own blog without the specific product reviews...
Imagine (or recall) an adventure with all abstraction, lacking details...
That's what's a stake here.
Power on brother!
Approach them with the mindset that this is the necessary agony you must go through to give birth. This, more than writing paragraphs of generic blog-like philosophy, is why most human being will never write a book. The devil is in the details. It's isn't fun. It's not sexy.
BUT...
Imagine your own blog without the specific product reviews...
Imagine (or recall) an adventure with all abstraction, lacking details...
That's what's a stake here.
Power on brother!
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Remember that the point of the example is to reinforce the lesson: if the best way to communicate the lesson is to point to something that already exists, then so be it. But if it's better to derive an example because there's no ideal existing example out there to best hammer the point home, then it must also be so.