The state of Post-OSR content

[The1True]

Hell, maybe you just tell the players that they know people with information. The cleric knows that temples and monasteries tend to have collections of historical and theological works. The wizard knows where the sages like to hang out. The rogue knows how to ask around to find fences and the like. The fighter knows who the court gossips are.

I feel like Eberron has pretty comprehensive rules for exactly this kind of thing, doesn't it? Favoured in Guild etc?
Definitely, I've been exploring ways to democratize Gathering Information and Research so it's not just the party Face and Skill Monkey (often one and the same PC) having all the fun. For sure, one of the benefits of oldskool rulesets was that any player could take the wheel and drive (things maybe fell apart a bit if the half-orc barbarian tried to charm the shopkeeper into a better deal, but otherwise...)

 

[Beoric]

I feel like Eberron has pretty comprehensive rules for exactly this kind of thing, doesn't it? Favoured in Guild etc?

3e Eberron had feats like that. The 4e, and I think 5e, systems also have character features that do it. But I'm talking about something more bespoke than that.

Definitely, I've been exploring ways to democratize Gathering Information and Research so it's not just the party Face and Skill Monkey (often one and the same PC) having all the fun. For sure, one of the benefits of oldskool rulesets was that any player could take the wheel and drive (things maybe fell apart a bit if the half-orc barbarian tried to charm the shopkeeper into a better deal, but otherwise...)

You know I'm all about having the group track down Jimmy the Snitch (who is hiding from the Hole-in-the-Wall Gang) rather than making a gather information check.

What? As opposed to the first edition of Steading of the Hill Giant Chief? The only way I know that's any good is because I've played it twice and DM'd it once. From a simple read-through it's just a scrawl of numbers and dry sentences. A shit-ton of OSR classics are like that as well. I have no idea how reviewers like TenFootPole and Prince of Nothing are able to look over some of these shabby products and see the gem it will be in play.

Fair. I have said before, I think some of the appeal of these modules in knowing what other DMs have done with them over the decades. Also, if you know that you need to look inside the module for some of the good bits (like the slave revolt in Steading) it makes it easier to get something out of them. But these are a good case for having a really short summary that tells you the key elements to look for.

But the writing from late 2e onwards is just the most miserable hackneyed prose. Bad enough that it's a wall of text, but now it has to be a poorly written wall of text?

 

[Hemlock]

Also (and this just occurred to me), it would probably help if you had useful elements introduce themselves. I get frustrated that players don't take the initiative and seek out purveyors of information, but it occurs to me that information brokers want to find clients, and low level information brokers can't be too choosy; they might seek out adventurers and hint that they can be useful in finding stuff out. The concierge at the fancy hotel might make it really clear that they can hook you up with all kinds of bizarre and illegal stuff. The local thief taker might advertise his ability to find people and things.

This is brilliant. Consider it stolen. In particular I plan to use it in scene framing at the end of an adventure, as in:

"You get back to town and purvey your loot. [roll dice] Bard the Bard can get $4500 for the sword and $14,000 for the gems through his wealthy contacts. However, you also get a note delivered to you which says, 'Don't sell the sword. Come see me at the palace. -Haven Sadfurst, Imperial Historian.'"

Ditto hooks at the beginning of an adventure.

 

[Beoric]

This is brilliant. Consider it stolen. In particular I plan to use it in scene framing at the end of an adventure, as in:

"You get back to town and purvey your loot. [roll dice] Bard the Bard can get $4500 for the sword and $14,000 for the gems through his wealthy contacts. However, you also get a note delivered to you which says, 'Don't sell the sword. Come see me at the palace. -Haven Sadfurst, Imperial Historian.'"

Ditto hooks at the beginning of an adventure.

I remember running a module with expensive but really creepy, and cult related, art objects. I thought, who is going to buy this stuff? Party had to ask around to find dealer who would offer a decent price ("Yeah, none of my customers are gonna want that!")- by which time word got out to the local cultists...

This sort of thing is hinted at in B1, where a lot of the treasure is basically branded with Zelligar and Rogahn's names and/or images.

 

[The1True]

Party had to ask around to find dealer

I do this occasionally, particularly with ancient coins. Sure, it's worth it's equivalent weight in gold/silver/etc. but a slightly higher than average Appraise or Knowledge History reveals those coins might be worth much more to the right collector. Usually, a simple comment while detailing the treasure can do away with the necessity of 2.5-5e-style skill checks. Now you've got a possibly useful sidequest while in town.

 

[grodog]

I think the fundamental issue is that, after Gygax, nobody paid attention to the process of DMing, or the way procedures drive play. [snip]
I note using the AD&D treasure tables, if magic items were indicated you had about a 10% chance of getting a map. That's an early hook.

And it's so critical that I bump the map % to 20% in my campaigns.

I also think sages are badly underused

Agreed, along with class-based guilds/organizations or teachers/mentors which cover nearly all of the PC types in AD&D: clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, magic-users, illusionists, thieves, assassins, monks, and bards---perhaps leaving only fighters out in the cold by default, but it's easy enough to introduce a "Slayers Brotherhood" or whatever to cover them too.

Thieves clearly know fences, for example. Clerics are part of a local temple's staff, and have higher-ups who can neutralize poison or raise the dead (for the right cause, a hefty donation, or both). Druids and bards party at college together. Etc.

it occurs to me that information brokers want to find clients, and low level information brokers can't be too choosy; they might seek out adventurers and hint that they can be useful in finding stuff out. The concierge at the fancy hotel might make it really clear that they can hook you up with all kinds of bizarre and illegal stuff.

A very nice idea!---the adventure does find your character, sometimes!

Hell, maybe you just tell the players that they know people with information. The cleric knows that temples and monasteries tend to have collections of historical and theological works. The wizard knows where the sages like to hang out. The rogue knows how to ask around to find fences and the like. The fighter knows who the court gossips are.

Yes, networking is definitely important in campaign campaign, and an underrated activity for active play as well as downtime.

Allan.

 

[Beoric]

Agreed, along with class-based guilds/organizations or teachers/mentors which cover nearly all of the PC types in AD&D: clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, magic-users, illusionists, thieves, assassins, monks, and bards---perhaps leaving only fighters out in the cold by default, but it's easy enough to introduce a "Slayers Brotherhood" or whatever to cover them too.

Thieves clearly know fences, for example. Clerics are part of a local temple's staff, and have higher-ups who can neutralize poison or raise the dead (for the right cause, a hefty donation, or both). Druids and bards party at college together. Etc.

A good reason to belong to a Thieves Guild. Eberron has many such organizations for all classes, complete with the organizations' goals, suggestions for how to gain favour with them, and indications as to what they will or will not do for you depending on your standing in the organization.

I note training rules force your players to engage with at least some of these contacts, and can lead to some interesting choices about who you choose to train with, and just what the cost will be ("I don't care about your money, but aren't you friend's with the Duke's youngest son?").

 

[squeen]

Because it's been too quiet...

 

[Avi]

OI....
Bread Scientist is a serious business ;-)
But I really would like to learn how to get "Leveled up" in the top 2 categories ;-)

 

[The1True]

I am on record shilling for my buoy Greg Gillespie (over and over again). Gotta say though; kinda disappointed to see him jumping on this bandwagon.
Being forgiving, I assume it's a response to that WotC SRD dustup last winter. But still. Does the world really need another retro-clone? My inbox is all bunged up with Dolmenwood kickstarter spam as well. I guess people are buying this stuff. My question is: Are they actually playing these things or are they just supporting their favourite bloggers?

It is an impressive list of artists though. His ability to wrangle classic TSR artists for his projects is pretty epic...

 

[Malrex]

I am on record shilling for my buoy Greg Gillespie (over and over again). Gotta say though; kinda disappointed to see him jumping on this bandwagon.
Being forgiving, I assume it's a response to that WotC SRD dustup last winter. But still. Does the world really need another retro-clone? My inbox is all bunged up with Dolmenwood kickstarter spam as well. I guess people are buying this stuff. My question is: Are they actually playing these things or are they just supporting their favourite bloggers?

It is an impressive list of artists though. His ability to wrangle classic TSR artists for his projects is pretty epic...

I actually can get behind and applaud his #1 reason: "First, I refuse to continue publishing megadungeons and adventures while being beholden to other people or rulesets."
That OGL attack still grates my nerves so I can totally understand his logic. It almost made me walk from the hobby if I'm honest because I was so disgusted by it. Caused some of our players to step up and create a new website, and be willing to start helping us out, etc. because I cancelled our old website and was done. So yeah, I may of finally caved on my partner wanting to publish his rules due to the OGL (coming soon.....yay), but I think I convinced him to just put it out for free since no one wants a new retroclone (he doesn't believe me). But admittedly, it will be nice to have a POD of our rules at our table for our own use. And I'm considering some legal language so I don't have to "continue publishing megadungeons and adventures while being beholden to other people or rulesets." Because who will be next to backstep on their claims....?

 

[Hemlock]

I actually can get behind and applaud his #1 reason: "First, I refuse to continue publishing megadungeons and adventures while being beholden to other people or rulesets."

I mean, I see where you're coming from, but I see the other side too because one of the major pathologies of Dungeon Fantasy RPG and GURPS in general is SJG's general refusal to care about megadungeons and adventures that are written by other people, even ones who are much better at adventure design than WotC. I remain very frustrated at SJG's reaction to the thread about converting adventures like your Ascent of the Leviathan to DFRPG. They called the whole idea "adjacent to piracy" which is nonsense! Through no fault of yours, Malrex, that whole experience left a sour taste in my mouth w/rt adventure conversion. I'm still doing my own conversions ad hoc for my own use but that's it.

So anyway, best case scenario from my perspective is that I can ignore Greg Gillespie's new ruleset and still be able to buy and run his best adventures anyway.

P.S. The art looks cool though.

 

[squeen]

"You can't copyright rules". What happened to this? Why can't OSRIC, OSE, etc. just go on their own merry way and ignore WotC and the OGL? Have I forgotten the crucial point already?

 

[Malrex]

"You can't copyright rules". What happened to this? Why can't OSRIC, OSE, etc. just go on their own merry way and ignore WotC and the OGL? Have I forgotten the crucial point already?

That actually may be the type of legal language I'm talking about squeen. Instead of a full page of 7 to 8 font OGL stuff, I may just have one sentence like yours and call it good...lol. No, I think you are right....and I think Guy Fullerton had it right back in 2012 when he posted just this:

"Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and AD&D are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, and are used without permission. Chaotic Henchmen Productions and this product are not affiliated with Wizards of the Coast."

And that's basically it. At the time, I was nervous about that language, mainly because I'm not a lawyer and lack the patience to read or understand all the jargon--no one really wants to get sued. They want you to use the OGL in your products, so it felt like Guy slapped them in the face when he didn't put the OGL in there, but I think as long as you don't add the copyrighted monsters (beholder, etc.) then they probably aren't going to do anything--especially to 1e and 2e material since they consider that 'dead'. And with new revelations about WOTC, I'm glad Guy slapped them in the face.

I won't speak to all creators, but having something to fall back onto--like your own ruleset just "feels" more clean, comfortable, and safe. Because even putting out adventures for OSE, you have to follow a few rules (like sending the rules creator your adventure for free, etc.) or you got to check for all the little rule changes to make sure it goes along with how OSRIC did it or whatever. A creator is going to know their own rules pretty good, so it's less of a hurdle to have to double check how a retroclone does AC or movement or whatever.

One thing also that always bothered me too was what if you want a NPC spellcaster to have a spell that is not in say OSE's rules--like Grease. Do you have to put in an Appendix in the back of your adventure with "New Spells" and then convert Grease to OSE rules? I mean, I get most players probably know what Grease does, but what about people just playing OSE and not knowing about the original rulesets? Ok...going off tangent...

"So anyway, best case scenario from my perspective is that I can ignore Greg Gillespie's new ruleset and still be able to buy and run his best adventures anyway." -Hemlock
I think that's the best approach. I think people like us who have been playing forever already have their own established way of playing. I think new rulesets/retroclones are more interesting for people just joining the hobby and trying to figure out their own table's rules and enjoy comparing new ideas. People are just going to read adventures and convert it to whatever system they are playing anyways. But if YOU are interested in a non-streamlined, number-crunching, 2eish, ridiculous new optional ruleset, then keep your eyes open for Journals of Nevermore, where YOU could be like the 7th person in the world to use it--coming soon, probably with our Coming of Winter Kickstarter in Octoberish (or maybe November).

@Hemlock --I barely remember that DFRPG thread and I remember just stumbling upon it randomly. Were you the guy that was trying to convert Ascent and was emailing me? That happened awhile ago...

 

[Hemlock]

@Hemlock --I barely remember that DFRPG thread and I remember just stumbling upon it randomly. Were you the guy that was trying to convert Ascent and was emailing me? That happened awhile ago...

Yep, that was me. I apologize for dropping the project; it wasn't your fault.

Now I'm off to https://www.themercilessmerchants.com/ to pick up a few more adventures and start fresh with them, without any negative SJG forum memories. (Edit: link is dead? I will try https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/11180/The-Merciless-Merchants)

P.S. My convert-on-the-fly rules are now at https://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2023/09/converting-d-adventures-to-dungeon.html

P.P.S. I've just skimmed through Trollback Keep and it is fantastic! Just my style and easy to adapt (e.g. the Flypaper floor just becomes Glue-15, so characters with high Strength are less likely to get stuck; Drawbridge hole #3 just becomes 2d6 cutting damage to the hand, with possible severing already built into the DFRPG ruleset). I want to run this adventure ASAP.

 

[Hemlock]

"You can't copyright rules". What happened to this? Why can't OSRIC, OSE, etc. just go on their own merry way and ignore WotC and the OGL? Have I forgotten the crucial point already?

Don't forget the lesser-known corollary: "You can't copyright names."

 

[Malrex]

Yep, that was me. I apologies for dropping the project; it wasn't your fault.

Now I'm off to https://www.themercilessmerchants.com/ to pick up a few more adventures and start fresh with them, without any negative SJG forum memories. (Edit: link is dead? I will try https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/11180/The-Merciless-Merchants)

P.S. My convert-on-the-fly rules are now at https://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2023/09/converting-d-adventures-to-dungeon.html

P.P.S. I've just skimmed through Trollback Keep and it is fantastic! Just my style and easy to adapt (e.g. the Flypaper floor just becomes Glue-15, so characters with high Strength are less likely to get stuck; Drawbridge hole #3 just becomes 2d6 cutting damage to the hand, with possible severing already built into the DFRPG ruleset). I want to run this adventure ASAP.

Whoops...just updated the signature to our new website, thanks for the catch. We got a few freebies on the website--mainly some contests Ive done here.
No worries about dropping the project, it's all good.
Hope you have fun with Trollback!

 

[Hemlock]

Whoops...just updated the signature to our new website, thanks for the catch. We got a few freebies on the website--mainly some contests Ive done here.
No worries about dropping the project, it's all good.
Hope you have fun with Trollback!

FYI Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mercilessmerchants/voyages-on-the-zontani-sea/creator_bio) also points to the broken link.

P.S. "The Ice Troll Cave" is a great name which immediately makes me want to play it!

 

[Johnny F. Normal]

Looking around my office I can categorically say I don't NEED another ruleset but I am always interested to LEARN of folks nuances of game play. That which we only have fragments from EGG, once more not enough real DM meat.
In particular, when other people of around my pedigree (early 80s) in present a ruleset I'm hoping to find tidbits and different processes to resolve challenges.
I'm simply an OSCannibal.

On the OGL front there was way too much immediate panic (what happened to Proctor and LL2?) when essentially Guy F. had it right all along simply don't use IP.

 

[robertsconley]

"You can't copyright rules". What happened to this? Why can't OSRIC, OSE, etc. just go on their own merry way and ignore WotC and the OGL? Have I forgotten the crucial point already?

No you can't copyright the idea behind the rule only its expression. And if the expression of the rule is so obvious even that may not be copyrightable. However the problem isn't the rules of D&D. The problem is that hundreds of terms that make D&D, D&D may be in of itself a creative expression thus copyrightable. Then there is the trade dress angle.

Meaning while Armor Class, Class, Hit Points, Hit Dice, are not protectable when you add them all together along the list of generic names of spells (Magic Missile) list of generic monsters (troll, goblin, etc.) That particular list may be considered copyrightable.

The use of OGL content for classic D&D side steps that for a hobby publisher.

My recommendation is to follow what Paizo is doing with their ORC licensed Pathfinder. Note what terms they change and which ones they don't. As they have basically a similar issue with the terms.