The state of Post-OSR content

Well there was also X1, X2 and especially B2. With an honourable mention to B1.

EDIT: B4 is pretty good too.
X1 & X2 never really floated my boat...but by then I had moved away from running TSR modules. Heck, all of B/X was such a massive turn-off for me.

B1 was great, but very DIY.

I own an original B4 (Lost City) and I know lots of folks love it, but I never played it.
 
B5 is the BEST. I've run it so many times; it's falling apart.
Also filthy heresy: Return to the Keep on the Borderlands was super fun to read/run! (Return to White Plume Mountain, not so much)
No, I see the appeal of RttKotB. It's built on B2's chassis and uses B2's engine, and B2 was designed to be restocked and reused.
 
The author is absolutely correct on one point though, in that the best adventures ever written were written for AD&D. Lightning in a bottle. That's why we're all here now; looking for that vibe. I think we now know the reason why module quality went downhill: There's no money in it for the corporation. If there was some way to make it a profitable enterprise, I'm sure we'd see a renaissance.

Hmmm. This is an attractive hypothesis, but... I'm not so sure it's really true. Even today's WotC still sells a lot of adventure paths, which are just bloated modules (usually but not always tied to a railroad of some kind).

Reflecting on lessons of The Elusive Shift, I suspect module writing shifted more as a result of playstyles than monetary constraints. As D&D grew beyond the community of cash-strapped working-class midwesterners (including Gygax himself) who dreamed of striking it rich and quitting their day jobs and into communities of those with different creative agendas such as feeling heroic or impressing other people at the table or whatnot, playstyle shifted to something that's harder to capture in a module than early dungeon crawls were. They may have made modules less profitable, but unprofitability is more of a symptom than a root cause. I think.
 
I think customers started buying modules to collect and read them more than play them as well. A pretty product with a cool story became more desirable. Modules became aspirational. I remember my friends, who were players rather than referees in the group buying adventures. I remember when I had a couple of dry years where I couldn't scrape together a group, buying adventures anyway. Playability wasn't necessarily the first criterion. I know I wasn't alone in that buying habit; the corporation followed the money.
 
I think customers started buying modules to collect and read them more than play them as well. A pretty product with a cool story became more desirable. Modules became aspirational. I remember my friends, who were players rather than referees in the group buying adventures. I remember when I had a couple of dry years where I couldn't scrape together a group, buying adventures anyway. Playability wasn't necessarily the first criterion. I know I wasn't alone in that buying habit; the corporation followed the money.

Oh, absolutely. I own a ton of WotC-authored 5E modules that I bought out of sheer curiosity, to know what other people were talking about (e.g. monster appendixes at the back), even though I already knew I had no desire to run them. (There are others that I didn't buy because I wasn't even interested in discussing them.)

But that still seems like a consequence of a playstyle shift. It's not "good modules are expensive" ==> "module quality goes downhill." More like "dungeon crawling becomes less popular among players" ==> "dungeon crawl modules stop selling well" ==> "other kinds of content, like adventure paths, become more relatively popular" ==> "industry doesn't know how to write them" ==> "module quality goes downhill."

I'm sure WotC would happily write a good mystery module if they could, just like they would happily write a well-formatted PHB index if they could, but for some reason they can't. I don't think lack of profitability is the reason for their inability. Maybe it's some kind of Dunning-Krueger thing where they're just not competent enough to recognize their own incompetence, and think what they've got is actually pretty good.

As far as non-WotC stuff goes... I do buy a lot of stuff that Bryce recommends, even if I don't necessarily expect to have time to run it, but that's because I expect to learn from it, maybe steal some ideas or segments. Also I just like supporting good adventure-writers.
 
I agree with the notion that a different (more common/larger) demographic of player arrived and was catered too. Likewise the game morphed to become more mainstream accessible. No doubt.

What I don't know is if TSR/WotC orchestrated it intelligently or just went with the flow.

Similarly the style of fantasy, sci-fi, comic-books etc. that are hugely popular right now are also some weird mash-up up of things I used to like and things I very much never did. Despite the ridiculously huge amount of genre-product out there, so little of it is appealing---because ultimately the content has changed, disguised in the old dress-up. I can no longer say "I like Sci-Fi and Fantasy" to discribe my tastes because it bears little relation to its roots in 97% of the cases.

When I was a kid, I was reluctant to say I play D&D because of the nerd label. Now everyone wants to identify as a nerd, but I still don't want to say I play D&D because people might think I like playing TODAY'S kind of D&D...which could lead to even more embarrassment when I might have to disentangle myself from an invitation without insulting.
 
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What I don't know is if TSR/WotC orchestrated it intelligently or just went with the flow.

...

When I was a kid, I was reluctant to say I play D&D because of the nerd label. Now everyone wants to identify as a nerd, but I still don't want to say I play D&D because people might think I like playing TODAY'S kind of D&D...which could lead to even more embarrassment when I might have to disentangle myself from an invitation without insulting.

I don't remember TSR days (I started AD&D around 1992, after the module transition had already taken place) but my guess based on what I've read and also observed about WotC is that module writers basically follow Steve Brust's Cool Stuff Theory of Literature:

The Cool Stuff Theory of Literature is as follows: All literature consists of whatever the writer thinks is cool. The reader will like the book to the degree that he agrees with the writer about what's cool. And that works all the way from the external trappings to the level of metaphor, subtext, and the way one uses words. In other words, I happen not to think that full-plate armor and great big honking greatswords are cool. I don't like 'em. I like cloaks and rapiers. So I write stories with a lot of cloaks and rapiers in 'em, 'cause that's cool. Guys who like military hardware, who think advanced military hardware is cool, are not gonna jump all over my books, because they have other ideas about what's cool.
The novel should be understood as a structure built to accommodate the greatest possible amount of cool stuff.

Gary was an impoverished-but-industrious entrepreneur in real life. Clearly he found the idea of outwitting deadly traps created by an archlich in order to gain fabulous liches edit: riches pretty cool, in a way that 21st century Critical Role watchers do not.

But bottling the good parts about Critical Role and selling it in book form is not as easy as bottling the Tomb of Horrors experience.

P.S. I get your point about not wanting to be invited to... a certain kind of D&D game. For me I just ask up-front what the game is "about" from the 8 Kinds of Fun perspective (https://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/, best article AngryGM ever wrote), and then decline based on that instead of getting into a semantic argument about what "D&D" means.
 
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I might have to disentangle myself from an invitation without insulting.

Dude, just start going on and on about your character. Or your campaign. No one wants to hear about either of those things (they'd rather talk about their own). You will find they look for ways to extricate themselves from the conversation shortly thereafter. Anyone who isn't sent packing immediately will eventually realize a) they have an incompatible playstyle, and b) (and I say this with all due respect sir) you are an irascible dinosaur :P
 
I remember the shift! Suddenly the dungeons part of Dungeons & Dragons was dreadfully immaTure 🧐

It's probably the fault of Weis and Hickman.

But also, like you I had times where finding good, stable gaming groups was hard. People were too busy with college, or going out into the real world. I desperately wanted to play higher level stuff, and it was hard to get a group to level that high, especially with the 1e paradigm. When 3rd edition came around, it seemed like a godsend. The characters were tougher! They had more to do at low levels! (wizards with 2-0 and 1-1st level spells, with INT bonuses to boot, woooooo!). The encounters were balanced and were meant for the PCs to win, so they could level faster. Wheeeee!!! Only later did it become apparent how bad and boring that would get.
 
I think the shift was one part players and designers wanting something different (because by the mid 80s D&D was already ten years old and for a lot of people there were only so many open-ended dungeons one could venture into), and one part not yet understanding that the difference they wanted / latched onto (comparatively rigid storyline play) was far more limiting in some ways (because it was new, after all, so its limitations hadn't really had the chance to be felt).

However, the big element for me is one last part: that the core intended purpose and gameplay loop of old D&D was so poorly explained in the rulebooks that there was lots of room for people to miss it. So after you get the mass hirings of new TSR staff in 81 and 82, just as Gygax begins stepping back from development duties, followed by the mass purges of 1984, you've got pretty much an entirely new design staff, including tons of people who largely were playing since the 70s but weren't part of the original Lake Geneva crew and so never got to learn firsthand how the game was intended to be played. They had developed their own styles of play, and a lot of those didn't mesh with the original playstyle.

One of the things that really sticks out to me as being obviously true but somewhat bewildering is how TSR never seems to have developed a House Style that was enforced at the corporate level. Perhaps because Gygax was big into the idea that each DM should handle things how they thought best, each designer really had their own ideas of how an adventure should be put together and that was readily evident on the page. TSR developed a common look and feel for their modules over time, but there seems to have never been an internal TSR document that said "this is the core purpose of D&D and, following from that, adventures should do these broad things and avoid these broad things": a sort of best-practices document. As such, as soon as he moves on (and really, even before) you get all sorts of random styles and approaches in modules, and the original style in particular is allowed to languish, because people have different ideas of how to play and because it's old and been done and there seems to be new and exciting methods of play popping up. That these new paths were often creative and gameplay dead ends wouldn't be apparent for a while (and to be fair would remain the preferred way for some regardless: there's a reason they've lasted this long no matter how much we tend to disparage them).
 
That these new paths were often creative and gameplay dead ends wouldn't be apparent for a while (and to be fair would remain the preferred way for some regardless: there's a reason they've lasted this long no matter how much we tend to disparage them).

Could you expand on this please?

Also, I wonder to what extent adventure style was influenced by improving(?) layout/publishing quality?
 
Could you expand on this please?

I was referring to the shift to more story-oriented play. Tending as it does to produce the same series of hackneyed story beats, with linear story paths, a progression of "saving" storylines (save the village, save the town, save the kingdom, save the world) and always a new "BBEG", with amateur theatre added to taste, it's not exactly a rich mode of play. Certainly it can deliver more, but I think a mode of play is best defined by what it tends to produce rather than theoretical heights, and in that regard, the typical example of open-ended, player-focused play is much more robust even if there's plenty of generic dungeons out there.

That having been said, the idea of focusing on story must have appeared enormously refreshing when it first began to spread widely, after 5-10 years of lightly plotted sandbox play: "you mean we don't have constantly explore dungeons or decide what to do all the time?" The fact that that's how D&D is primarily played today speaks to its widespread appeal, since no matter how tiresome and creatively bankrupt the style seems to most of us, it just keeps trucking along decade after decade. I tend to think of a lot of the things that collectively marked the end of the old school as coming from good or at least logical places.
 
That having been said, the idea of focusing on story must have appeared enormously refreshing when it first began to spread widely, after 5-10 years of lightly plotted sandbox play: "you mean we don't have constantly explore dungeons or decide what to do all the time?" The fact that that's how D&D is primarily played today speaks to its widespread appeal, since no matter how tiresome and creatively bankrupt the style seems to most of us, it just keeps trucking along decade after decade. I tend to think of a lot of the things that collectively marked the end of the old school as coming from good or at least logical places.
Lowest common denominator. D&D merged with episodic television plots makes for easy, passive entertainment. The modern opiate.
 
you mean we don't have constantly explore dungeons or decide what to do all the time?

It's some kind of horrible Stockholm Syndrome. I've been running this open-ended sandbox for a few months and it's been a fight to get the players to make their own choices. Their conditioning is deep-set. They're constantly looking for narrative hooks and much happier once they're on the railroad (of their own choosing).

I mean, then they go to great lengths to sabotage the railroad. But they needed that framework there. They needed a box to think outside of.
 
I was referring to the shift to more story-oriented play. Tending as it does to produce the same series of hackneyed story beats, with linear story paths, a progression of "saving" storylines (save the village, save the town, save the kingdom, save the world) and always a new "BBEG", with amateur theatre added to taste, it's not exactly a rich mode of play. Certainly it can deliver more, but I think a mode of play is best defined by what it tends to produce rather than theoretical heights, and in that regard, the typical example of open-ended, player-focused play is much more robust even if there's plenty of generic dungeons out there.

Giant in the Playground's Order of the Stick collected all these storybeats and tropes into one narrative. No one needs that anymore, it's been done.

It's some kind of horrible Stockholm Syndrome. I've been running this open-ended sandbox for a few months and it's been a fight to get the players to make their own choices. Their conditioning is deep-set. They're constantly looking for narrative hooks and much happier once they're on the railroad (of their own choosing).

I mean, then they go to great lengths to sabotage the railroad. But they needed that framework there. They needed a box to think outside of.

It comes down to structure. Players need a box so they can think outside it. They love getting railroaded and finding their own way through it. It's one of the reasons I wrote Throught the Foglands the way I did. Give the players, "move left to right" is direction enough, they'll find tons of ways to have fun optimizing through it.
 
It's some kind of horrible Stockholm Syndrome. I've been running this open-ended sandbox for a few months and it's been a fight to get the players to make their own choices. Their conditioning is deep-set. They're constantly looking for narrative hooks and much happier once they're on the railroad (of their own choosing).

What's that called again? Choice paralysis or something like that. If you have too many choices you find yourself unable to choose.
 
I think the shift was one part players and designers wanting something different (because by the mid 80s D&D was already ten years old and for a lot of people there were only so many open-ended dungeons one could venture into), and one part not yet understanding that the difference they wanted / latched onto (comparatively rigid storyline play) was far more limiting in some ways (because it was new, after all, so its limitations hadn't really had the chance to be felt).

I suppose it was a change from setting based adventures to plot based adventures that marked the change from 'classic' to traditional. The character based adventures came even later.
 
I think the fundamental issue is that, after Gygax, nobody paid attention to the process of DMing, or the way procedures drive play. And Gygax never really described how he handled out of dungeon play. So when non-dungeon adventures came into vogue, designers just puked their ideas up on paper. So you get a wall of text trying to either create a railroad or describe every possible outcome, instead of short entries with procedures that help you to improvise.

Why do they keep writing them this way? Because very few people are writing better modules for this playstyle; and those that do are relatively obscure and aren't really competition. The WotC stuff continues to sell, Hasbro is risk averse and seemingly always happy to fire people, so who is going to take the risk of experimenting with other approaches?

I think customers started buying modules to collect and read them more than play them as well. A pretty product with a cool story became more desirable. Modules became aspirational. I remember my friends, who were players rather than referees in the group buying adventures. I remember when I had a couple of dry years where I couldn't scrape together a group, buying adventures anyway. Playability wasn't necessarily the first criterion. I know I wasn't alone in that buying habit; the corporation followed the money.
@bryce0lynch always says this too, but I find that type of module completely unreadable.

my guess based on what I've read and also observed about WotC is that module writers basically follow Steve Brust's Cool Stuff Theory of Literature
That would be fine if they wrote like Brust.

For me I just ask up-front what the game is "about" from the 8 Kinds of Fun perspective (https://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/, best article AngryGM ever wrote), and then decline based on that instead of getting into a semantic argument about what "D&D" means.
No, the best articles the AngryGM ever wrote were his early skill system and adjudication articles. Unfortunately, the last time I tried to look at them it appeared the webpages had been hacked.

It's some kind of horrible Stockholm Syndrome. I've been running this open-ended sandbox for a few months and it's been a fight to get the players to make their own choices. Their conditioning is deep-set. They're constantly looking for narrative hooks and much happier once they're on the railroad (of their own choosing).

I mean, then they go to great lengths to sabotage the railroad. But they needed that framework there. They needed a box to think outside of.
Yeah, there need to be perceived constraints or they get completely lost. Basically, you need hooks, and the hooks need to either have obvious paths of investigation associated with them (say, because the hook is a trope that invites a particular type of action), or the hooks need to have the path of investigation built in (for example, a treasure map).

I note using the AD&D treasure tables, if magic items were indicated you had about a 10% chance of getting a map. That's an early hook. I don't like to be that obvious, but I often include hooks in treasure - say, a deed to property, or treasure with a history that will get noticed when you sell it (B1 did a lot of that). Finding one part of the Rod of Seven Parts is a hell of a hook.

I also think sages are badly underused, and information-providing NPCs are generally used poorly. Modern modules have NPCs dispense information, instead of suggesting how PCs can find information. Like, what is going to drive play more, telling the players some relevant history, or telling them that the answers lie in the diary of the Dread Pirate Roberts, which you heard was buried in his tomb in the Saltmarsh Cemetery, at least until the Yellow Skull Gang robbed it last year? A common fault of modern modules is they don't encourage players to play actively.

Also (and this just occurred to me), it would probably help if you had useful elements introduce themselves. I get frustrated that players don't take the initiative and seek out purveyors of information, but it occurs to me that information brokers want to find clients, and low level information brokers can't be too choosy; they might seek out adventurers and hint that they can be useful in finding stuff out. The concierge at the fancy hotel might make it really clear that they can hook you up with all kinds of bizarre and illegal stuff. The local thief taker might advertise his ability to find people and things.

Hell, maybe you just tell the players that they know people with information. The cleric knows that temples and monasteries tend to have collections of historical and theological works. The wizard knows where the sages like to hang out. The rogue knows how to ask around to find fences and the like. The fighter knows who the court gossips are.
 
but I find that type of module completely unreadable.

What? As opposed to the first edition of Steading of the Hill Giant Chief? The only way I know that's any good is because I've played it twice and DM'd it once. From a simple read-through it's just a scrawl of numbers and dry sentences. A shit-ton of OSR classics are like that as well. I have no idea how reviewers like TenFootPole and Prince of Nothing are able to look over some of these shabby products and see the gem it will be in play.

Like I've said, I've got more material than I'm ever going to be able to run in this lifetime. I'm buying this stuff to be entertained at this point. Every once in a while there's something SO awesome that it jumps the play queue. Artwork and presentation/readability are what will get it through the door. Compelling ideas and storytelling (and by storytelling, I mean the act of reading the product unfurls a story. Not walls of text.) are what will keep me reading to the end. Playability is rarely important to me as the consumer, but it's what's going to move the product to the top of the queue where it's likely to get played and talked about by me as the DM.
 
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