Puzzle pretenses

[DangerousPuhson]

One element of adventure design that sticks out to me like a sore thumb are pretenses for puzzles and riddles; that is to say, that many puzzles in modules lack a raison-d'etre and are just there for the sake of existing. Even if used to block off a secret (which is a debatable purpose, because a puzzle does not conceal so much as it just complicates), there seems to be little thematic reason for its existence.

Take a classic example of a room with X amount of statues and Y amount of different items, and you have to match the items to the statue based on a tapestry or poem or whatever - I struggle to come up with a reason for the existence of these types of things. Pretend you're the proud owner of the dungeon, what reason do you have for putting this here? It only slows down access but doesn't actually stop it, so there's no benefit to using it to get into a well-travelled area or keep people out of a forbidden one. It's solvable with information at hand, so there's no benefit for securing something valuable. If anyone can come up and solve it then there's no real vetting component to ensure controlled access. And the fact that it's out in the open means there's no element of secrecy or concealment. So why would you ever actually use one in your dungeon?

I know why we the DMs use them (because many players like puzzles and riddles and stuff), I just can't figure out good reasons for why a dungeon architect would ever use them. I have some preliminary ideas, but they are shaky at best - things like "two-step verification for acolytes forgetting their keys", "visitors proving their reverence and/or knowledge", and "insane wizard is just kooky like that", but these are all pretty weak reasons and most would be better replaced with like a really strong lock or deadly trap or something.

Any of you guys ever come across some seemingly-valid rationale for the existence of puzzles/riddles inside dungeons?

 

[Beoric]

I assume the creator of the dungeon is the kind of person who writes his passwords on post-its stuck to his monitor. There's rarely any organized defence (like, you couldn't put a guard on the dungeon entrance?), so I don't know why you would presume good security hygiene.

That's if you aren't doing the "dungeon as mythic underworld" in which case the dungeon is just fucking with you. Think Castle Heterodyne from Girl Genius. Or the house from House (the movie, not the TV series).

 

[DangerousPuhson]

There's rarely any organized defence (like, you couldn't put a guard on the dungeon entrance?), so I don't know why you would presume good security hygiene.

Depends on the dungeon in question. Most dungeons with puzzles are of the ancient ruins variety, which don't have guards in the modern sense but presumably had a lot of people using it in its heyday, in which case the presence of puzzles hinder more than help from an operational perspective.

Also, I personally never do "the dungeon as a mythic underworld" thing, at least in the sense that the dungeon is meant to be some sort of sentient construct a la Delicious in Dungeon. A mythical place, yes, but an entity unto itself? Nah, it's always more of an ecosystem. Like, unless it's specifically an enchanted bunch of trees, the forest doesn't fuck with you, the creatures in the forest do, you know? Assuming the default otherwise never really made much sense to me.

 

[Avi]

Logic? Indiana Jones trope...
Looking for justification? Maybe do a offsite research? Clues in different dungeons lead to a central entry?
"The pilgrims trail led them from the Temple of ASH-Nash to the Tempe of Kor-Kach. Only those who braved both could enter the sacred site of Get-rich"

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Logic? Indiana Jones trope...

I'm basically trying to fit puzzles into a Gygaxian Naturalist view of the game, and it just... doesn't. You don't see puzzles or riddles in real life outside of being games/pastimes. But in D&D they're sort of an expected pillar of play (or at least, an element that isn't considered out of place), and I'm trying to rationalize them so at least they might be plausible even if they aren't realistic. I was hoping this collection of professional module authors/play veterans would have come across something in their internet travels, or at the very least sat down and thought about it at one point, but I guess my optimism was misplaced.

 

[Beoric]

The only logic you really find in movies like Indiana Jones or The Goonies is that the traps protect something the builder of the traps wants to be found, as long as it is found by the "right" people. Where the "right" people are those who are likely to have access to the clues, or are likely to have the qualities/knowledge to decipher the clues, or become the right people by virtue of having got there first. So your puzzle dungeon needs a McGuffin, a related backstory, and traps/clues related to the backstory ("only the penitent shall pass").

I seem to recall a post on Greyhawk Grognard about the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun where he suggested that progressing the module requires the PCs to more and more act like worshipers of Tharizdun. I haven't read it since then to determine if that is accurate, but whether or not it is true, that would be an interesting way to approach a puzzle dungeon, to have the right answers corrupt the PCs in some way. Or enlighten, I suppose, but that would end up with a bunch of Grogs complaining about the module "moralizing", like players should be able to murderhobo their way to finding a lost temple to Bahumat or something.

 

[The Heretic]

The two best attempts I've seen to incorporate these organically were both in Dungeon. Best does not necessarily mean good. The first was "In the Dread of Night" in issue 24, where the evil wizard snob likes word games and puzzles, and he appreciates intellect. If you get captured, the cell you're in has a riddle that, when solved, will show you how to use a secret door to escape. The villain also made use of anagrams. Bryce didn't like this one (too much Renfaire crap), but I have found it to be a solid adventure.

The other was the "Mud Sorcerer's Tomb" in issue #37. Like @Beoric alluded to, the riddles were a 'password' clue to let the future followers of the mud sorcerers come back and bring their masters out of hibernation.

As for the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, to get to the final mysteries of the dungeon the PCs will have to put on the robes left by the priests, and perform other acts of worship (like ringing a bell? Chanting? I can't remember) to be able to make it into the innermost chambers. So yeah, I'd say Greyhawk Gognard is accurate.

The Heretic

 

[DangerousPuhson]

"Future-proofing" is a concept I can gel with; keys rust away and are lost, people forget passwords, traditions need verification and reestablishment. Things that someone needing access centuries into the future can use, assuming they're supposed to be accessing it. That all makes sense to me.

What gets me (and maybe this is either a modern development, or just a poor authorial one) is the sort of Resident Evil (or perhaps Skyrim) style of dungeon puzzle - align the statues by height, match the colored gem to the type of element, find the missing item in the picture, move like a chess piece, etc. Those types of puzzles are usually found inside more "generic" dungeons, and I'm trying to devise a rationale for their inclusion but I'm coming up short. "Zany/insane wizard" is always an easy cop-out, but it's such an overdone trope at this point.

 

[Beoric]

What gets me (and maybe this is either a modern development, or just a poor authorial one) is the sort of Resident Evil (or perhaps Skyrim) style of dungeon puzzle - align the statues by height, match the colored gem to the type of element, find the missing item in the picture, move like a chess piece, etc. Those types of puzzles are usually found inside more "generic" dungeons, and I'm trying to devise a rationale for their inclusion but I'm coming up short. "Zany/insane wizard" is always an easy cop-out, but it's such an overdone trope at this point.

The thing is, those CRPG puzzles are stupid and easy and are meant to be solved by players, and exist for the sole purpose of having players solve puzzles. They usually don't make any sense in-game either. If you model your puzzles on games than include them "just because", you aren't likely to have a reason that is any better than "just because."

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Yes I know that... that's why I'm trying to invent some reasons. I was hoping for some assistance with that beyond people just re-telling me things I already know.

Maybe I aim too high.

 

[Beoric]

If this is intended for a specific dungeon, some context would help. Coming up with a generic reason applicable to all dungeons is tough.

* They were intended as a compromise "back door" for the people constructing the dungeon, to maintain a semblance of security. But the constructions workers/architect/owner quit/was fired/died before it was completed, so nobody was available/had the knowledge to shut them down or replace them with something harder.

* They were already there as amusements, and somebody decided to link them to the secret door (or whatever).

* They were never actually intended to be a barrier. The solutions have a religious or academic significance to the original builders that everyone was expected to know. Either doing the puzzles was intended to put you in the correct frame of mind as you moved from one stage to another, or they were the equivalent of pithy sayings that everyone knew and were a sort of novelty latchkey, like 'Say "friend" and enter.'

* The entire dungeon was originally an escape room.

* The architect thought he was smarter than he was, and considered these puzzles to be impenetrable.

* The dungeon is a religious site dedicated to a trickster god.

* It was the fashion of the nobility at the time to construct such puzzles for the amusement of their guests.

Yes these are variations on a theme. There are really only two reasons to do this, security and somebody's amusement. If you reject those reasons you have nothing.

 

[The1True]

As for the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, to get to the final mysteries of the dungeon the PCs will have to put on the robes left by the priests, and perform other acts of worship (like ringing a bell? Chanting?

I'm on record as being vexed with this. There is literally nothing anywhere in the product that gives the players a clue that they're supposed to put on the robes, wave the censor and blow the fucking horns as they go down the stairs to the Cyst. I guess in 3e, I'd let someone roll a Knowledge Religion to figure it out, but in 1e terms, this dungeon climax is some epic bullshit. I'm interested to hear that the dungeon bit by bit forces the players to perform more and more Tharizdun-related rituals though, so maybe it would happen organically through play? I sure don't remember it reading that way, however.

Maybe I aim too high.

Maybe you ARE to high? hmmmm?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Yes these are variations on a theme. There are really only two reasons to do this, security and somebody's amusement. If you reject those reasons you have nothing.

No no, these are good, and perfectly valid reasons. Thank you. I particularly like "it was the style at the time". That being said, I'm not so sure they're the *only* reasons. We could probably come up with additional ones.

From what I can tell so far, the strongest rationale are:
- Allowing future access to the worthy
- A filtration mechanism for the knowing
- A form of reverence
- Ego placation

This is a pretty good start. I think one theme we've touched on is using puzzles as keys rather than as tests, and for practical reasons I could see that being a thing (you don't want a whole bunch of keys copies floating around out there in the world when you can just have the workers identify the familiar God of Mercy or whatever). It works for at least brief puzzles (press the right button, say the right word, etc.).

A couple other reasons that come to me as to why puzzles in dungeons might be plausible:
- The puzzle as a test (akin to future-proofing for the worthy, but more along the lines of a directly-observed test a la White Plume Mountain)
- A filter that permits only intellect (maybe to keep out animals and the dimwitted, like access to protect a special library or something)
- A demonstration for the enthusiast (giant chessboard because the owner just loves chess and wants only fellow chess enthusiasts in his sanctum)

However these all might still be classifiable as "filter of the knowing", if we really condense them to their basic form.

Maybe you ARE to high? hmmmm?

Nah, I quit months ago - the wife and I are trying for a baby.

 

[Beoric]

- The puzzle as a test (akin to future-proofing for the worthy, but more along the lines of a directly-observed test a la White Plume Mountain)

Ok, dungeon as giant rat puzzle-maze where the PCs are the rats has potential. I would have it be observed by mind flayers in lab coats.

Imagine that as something that happens after the players think the party was TPK'd. They wake up in a maze made of they don't know what, but they know it isn't stone or wood. Very bright lighting, varying types of prompts to get them moving, tests of varying lethality, sometimes rewards of candy when successful. Something that would happen in The Avengers (old UK spy series, not the MCU).

You wouldn't want to keep it going too long or the players will get bored or frustrated, so maybe the cognitive tests are insultingly easy, literally like how you would test a rat, because the mind flayers assume humans are really not that much more developed than rats. Which leads to lax security, hopefully allowing the PCs to escape before the end of the session.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

I ran a comparable game once, except instead of a lab maze it was a Running Man style survival gauntlet gameshow complete with disembodied announcer and high-roller aristocrat gamblers.

 

[Beoric]

I ran a comparable game once, except instead of a lab maze it was a Running Man style survival gauntlet gameshow complete with disembodied announcer and high-roller aristocrat gamblers.

I gather there is a new Running Man movie due out this year, supposedly closer to the book.

 

[The Heretic]

DP, I am surprised you didn't pose this question to AI.

The test/trial trope is a reasonable one, if a little overdone. Just ask @bryce0lynch, he likes to complain loudly whenever he encounters them while reviewing modules.

A subtle approach might work best if you are going for Gygaxian realism. Maybe the riddle can be broken up into clues that can be found during exploration. Then again, Gary did have scrolls lying around with riddles in several of his adventures (S1, S4, T1-4 though the latter might be Mentzer's fault).

I gather there is a new Running Man movie due out this year, supposedly closer to the book.

I'm patiently awaiting the new Logan's Run movie, that's been stuff in development limbo for what, three decades now? If they ever do it, I'd prefer them to base it off of the movie and not the books. The books were hack jobs.

Hmm. Maybe someone should reboot Zardoz....


The Heretic

 

[DangerousPuhson]

DP, I am surprised you didn't pose this question to AI.

I tend to defer to folk with actual experience in design before resorting to AI. Nonetheless, i took your advice, and surprisingly ChatGPT gave some pretty decent answers that matched what we've talked about:

Security or Locking Mechanism​

• Purpose: To prevent unauthorized access to a tomb, vault, or sacred chamber.
• Rationale: Magical or ancient cultures may prefer puzzles over brute force barriers because they cannot be picked or broken as easily. A riddle ensures that only those with the right knowledge or lineage may pass.
• Example: “Only the one who knows the founder’s true name may enter the inner sanctum.”

Test of Worthiness or Intelligence​

• Purpose: To ensure only clever, wise, or worthy individuals proceed.
• Rationale: A trial set by a wizard, deity, or ancient civilization to challenge would-be intruders and judge them by their intellect or values.
• Example: A Sphinx guarding a sacred library may demand a correct answer before letting someone pass.
  

Preservation of Knowledge or Lore​

• Purpose: To encode and protect knowledge, hiding it behind riddles.
• Rationale: A lost civilization might use riddles as a mnemonic or encryption method. Solving the riddle becomes part of learning or respecting the knowledge.
• Example: “What walks on four legs in the morning...” leading to insights about ancient philosophy or magic.
  

Ritual or Religious Significance​

• Purpose: To reflect the beliefs or dogma of a religion or order.
• Rationale: Followers may believe that only those who understand (or are enlightened by) the riddle can enter a holy site or tomb without offending the gods.
• Example: A puzzle door to a temple that only opens if you arrange scripture verses in the right order.
  

Psychological Warfare or Deterrence​

• Purpose: To confuse, demoralize, or delay enemies.
• Rationale: The dungeon’s creator wants to frustrate or trap intruders, wasting their time or leading them to make mistakes.
• Example: A riddle that, when answered incorrectly, triggers a trap or sends the party in circles.
  

Legacy or Ego of the Creator​

• Purpose: To show off intelligence or uniqueness.
• Rationale: Arrogant mages, powerful nobles, or eccentric inventors might leave behind puzzles to demonstrate their brilliance or eccentricity.
• Example: A hall lined with puzzles and inscriptions like, “Let those who would inherit my secrets prove themselves first.”
  

Magical or Construct Limitation​

• Purpose: As a side effect of magical design.
• Rationale: A construct or golem guarding a room may only be able to function in limited ways—such as asking a fixed riddle—and this becomes a de facto gatekeeping mechanism.
• Example: “This automaton will only stand down if you answer its ancient query, hardcoded by its creator.”

Cultural Tradition or Game​

• Purpose: To follow a tradition or celebrate something.
• Rationale: The dungeon was not originally a prison or vault but part of a cultural or ceremonial structure where riddles and puzzles played a role.
• Example: A riddle challenge in a training hall for monks or mages that became dangerous only over time.
  

Deter Undead or Non-Sentient Intruder​

• Purpose: Prevent entry by creatures without intellect or language.
• Rationale: A riddle that requires understanding of language or logic inherently bars unintelligent creatures like zombies or oozes.
• Example: A riddle door that won’t open for mindless invaders, but can be opened by a sentient creature with problem-solving skills.
  

Interactive Magic or Binding Spell​

• Purpose: Riddles are part of an enchantment.
• Rationale: Some magic systems require verbal cues or mental challenges to activate or deactivate spells.
• Example: A magical door that needs a “password,” but the password is a metaphor hidden in a riddle.

 

[Beoric]

[/LIST]

Psychological Warfare or Deterrence​

• Purpose: To confuse, demoralize, or delay enemies.
• Rationale: The dungeon’s creator wants to frustrate or trap intruders, wasting their time or leading them to make mistakes.
• Example: A riddle that, when answered incorrectly, triggers a trap or sends the party in circles.

I was actually thinking about something similar to this, I don't know why I didn't post it. Defensive military structures aren't expected to prevent enemy movement, but rather to slow it down to buy time and attrit enemy forces. If the dungeon is a military structure, puzzles serve as a check on enemy movement. Allies who know the code can pass through it swiftly, but enemies have to work the puzzle from scratch every time.

I would be possible to make this apparent to the players by having an active team monster that can move swiftly through a complex to gain advantages in positioning. Maybe monsters that are relatively weak, and use this edge to give the PCs more trouble than they would have expected. Like a less deadly version of Tucker's Kobolds.

 

[The1True]

Yeah, like the second the riddle is tripped, guardians start being summoned, defenders start buffing, automated defences (traps) are activated, etc.

A variation of the Test of Worthiness trope is a riddle or puzzle set to let only worthy victims through to the final boss who needs someone with brains to transfer his conscious to, or to dine on, or whatever.