Not Random wandering monsters

[The1True]

So what's the question?

That's what I'm saying. This has been resolved. Consensus has (mostly) been reached on the subject.

T1T said we were back at the resource question, and then pretty much said use it if the situation requires it, and don't if it doesn't. Then you asked what the question was and I told you what the question was. Advising you of the question didn't nullify T1T's answer, at least on the "what".

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Ok, so "we're back to the resource question" means "the resource question has been answered" and not "the resource question still persists". It was confusing because that's not generally how people phrase things.

 

[gameablecontent]

The same reason people climb Everest?

Someone wrote a macro for the Maptools framework I use, that automated the conversion of 4e statblocks to fully statted tokens complete with power macros. There was some time investment on my part, but mostly it was just dumping statblocks into the tool, and I may even have been able to do it in batches. It was simple enough that I could do it while working on something else.

understood, the urge to do is valid and valued. i was thinking more about the practical application. a hex crawl with hundreds of locations? a mega hex crawl?

 

[gameablecontent]

I've heard of it in other niche systems - generally the concept seems to work the same way that most custom die-dependent torch rules work. I've also seen some variants of 5e where rolling a Nat 1 on ranged attacks means you've run out of ammo. Personally, I get pretty loosey-goosey with ammunition tracking - some sessions I make it matter, but mostly I ignore it. Once in a while I just remind the party that they're low on ammunition, so they spend a couple gold pieces in the next town and that carries them a few more sessions. There isn't a soul at my table who finds logistics tracking to be an enjoyable part of the game, so they never gripe if I neglect it.

i hear you, but players track experience to the point and gold to the piece. is it too much to track arrows? i think not. it's just tally marks on a piece of paper.

 

[gameablecontent]

Definitely if you're in survival mode, and that's The Game for the next few sessions, you're counting every arrow and x% break after using.

In the past, magic ammunition was one-use in our group, but I suspect that has fallen by the wayside in recent campaigns.

Generally, at the start of every campaign, for the first session or two, the missile player will announce to me that they are combing the battlefield for their spent ammunition while the other characters are looting, and I go "yeah, yeah, you find all your arrows." and after that they stop mentioning it. It's like marching order, once it's set, I'll assume that's always how things will be.

i'm an archer. arrows are generally recoverable, but they do break, get permanently lodged in targets, and hide under leaves. i like "you recover all but one" after each combat, that way they do dwindle. of course enemy arrows are also recoverable.

 

[gameablecontent]

I have absolutely done that many times. Players are always ok with it. From a utilitarian point of view, in terms of "how many arrows can I salvage?", there's not much of a difference between "you salvage four intact arrows" and "you salvage..." *rolls dice* "...four intact arrows".


I think the golden question nobody is asking in these discussions is: how many people are actually playing the game this way? Are we discussing something that affects 1% of tables, 10% of tables, or 99% of tables here? I ask because super-rare edge-case table issues are not worth even debating - it just sows more confusion and confliction into the void of the internet. If it's a case of "well in Five Torches Deep they do it like this" or "Shadowdark has these rules", then there's probably a more specific community better served to address those issues

i hear you. i'm interested in what all you here have to say about how you see and and do things. i accidentally opened the randomized ammo tracking by using it an example of something for which randomization should not be used--it was not my intention to start a discussion on resource tracking. but to go on record i am firmly in the "players track encumbrance and ammo" camp.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

i hear you, but players track experience to the point and gold to the piece. is it too much to track arrows?

Depends - some jugglers can handle ten balls, others three, and others can't juggle at all. It's not up to us to tell the juggler how much he can juggle; he either can, or he can't. I personally err on the side of ease-of-play, so I don't give my players too many balls at once. Your players may juggle better than mine, and that's fine.

 

[Beoric]

i'm an archer. arrows are generally recoverable, but they do break, get permanently lodged in targets, and hide under leaves. i like "you recover all but one" after each combat, that way they do dwindle. of course enemy arrows are also recoverable.

I am not an archer; however, I have lost a lot of arrows in the woods, had heads break off, and (mostly) had fletching stripped or damaged. I expect outdoors you would lose a lot of arrows - keeping in mind that if you are doing minis combat (i.e. keeping track of enemy positioning), you will be shooting in a lot of different directions, you aren't just trying to find them in a line reasonably close to a single target, when you are shooting at said target from the same direction every time.

In dungeons, I am wondering how much damage is done by hitting a stone wall.

i hear you, but players track experience to the point and gold to the piece. is it too much to track arrows? i think not. it's just tally marks on a piece of paper.

It is one thing to ask them to add numbers that benefit them, like gp and XP gained. It is another to ask them to subtract. Resources acquired get tracked, resources spent, less so.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

i hear you, but players track experience to the point and gold to the piece. is it too much to track arrows? i think not. it's just tally marks on a piece of paper.

It's not the difficulty of it, per se, it's more the idea of implementing a further mental load when it may well be unnecessary. The question of ammo tracking is one for the players, not for the DM. If they want it, it's in; if they don't, it should be out. It's all dependent on whether or not your players value ammo tracking as part of the fun of the game.

 

[Two orcs]

Tracking XP and gp is fun because they represent success, tracking arrows is less fun because it represents attrition.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Number goes up = fun.
Number goes down = sad.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

 

[Two orcs]

D&D tapped into psychology in a stark way which has in recent decades been honed to a disgusting commercial weapon (mostly in video games).

 

[DangerousPuhson]

D&D tapped into psychology in a stark way which has in recent decades been honed to a disgusting commercial weapon (mostly in video games).

Splatbooks, campaign settings, and modules are the DLC microtranscations of tabletop roleplaying games, but they've been around since OD&D's Greyhawk booklet.

 

[The1True]

I mean, I want the company to make money and keep the hobby alive and relevant, but yeah, Hasbro is the fucking devil.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

I mean, I want the company to make money and keep the hobby alive and relevant, but yeah, Hasbro is the fucking devil.

It's not just Hasbro, and it's also not necessarily the evil it's made out to be. A game can't be carried too far on the core books alone. Everything that Bryce has ever reviewed is basically another form of "DLC microtransaction" for a TTRPG. It's the nature of third-party development.

 

[gameablecontent]

Number goes up = fun.
Number goes down = sad.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

ok i've heard this one before and I don't like it. hit points go down, which creates sadness which means we shouldn't keep track of hit points. none of us would agree with that--we all agree that there needs to some risk and loss in the game.

track ammo or don't, but saying to drop it because might make players sad is infantilizing. all the players i've played with have tracked ammo. have some intentionally or accidentally failed? yes! but they weren't sad.

i also don't agree that the players get to opt in or out of rules. not all the rules are fun. should players get to opt out of level drain? ghoul paralysis? death at 0HP? because they'll be sad? because its less fun? I'm out if the players huff and start citing studies on the psychological harm caused by penalties in game rules.

i know im not going to change your minds or win your hearts on this one, but might you concede that ammo tracking isn't onerous or sorrowful and that its inclusion or exclusion is a matter of style?

 

[gameablecontent]

I expect outdoors you would lose a lot of arrows - keeping in mind that if you are doing minis combat (i.e. keeping track of enemy positioning), you will be shooting in a lot of different directions, you aren't just trying to find them in a line reasonably close to a single target, when you are shooting at said target from the same direction every time.

this is a great point. archer or not, in a frenzied battle one would expect to be less focused on where an arrow lands, than we, in safe conditions with fixed targets, are. so maybe the DM can decide the loss ratio (after the battle & based on conditions), somewhere around half? elves find all their arrows outdoors?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

i also don't agree that the players get to opt in or out of rules. not all the rules are fun. should players get to opt out of level drain? ghoul paralysis? death at 0HP? because they'll be sad? because its less fun? I'm out if the players huff and start citing studies on the psychological harm caused by penalties in game rules.

That's a bit exaggerative. It's more like at the start of a Monopoly game with everybody agreeing about the Free Parking rule. The Free Parking rule doesn't make the game more or less difficult, it just makes it longer, much like how resource tracking isn't particularly difficult but just pads out play with extra steps (arrows, torches, and rations are always dirt cheap in the game economy - it's not like the PCs are scrounging very much).

 

[Beoric]

this is a great point. archer or not, in a frenzied battle one would expect to be less focused on where an arrow lands, than we, in safe conditions with fixed targets, are. so maybe the DM can decide the loss ratio (after the battle & based on conditions), somewhere around half? elves find all their arrows outdoors?

Half is probably reasonable, depending on location. For me, it's just easier to let the computer count every shot as a loss. (Which reminds me, another thing you would need to track is the number of shots fired, which somebody would have to do are doing during a melee when they are distracted).

If/when somebody asks about recovering arrows, then I can probably rely on them to start tracking the arrows shot and recovered, because that is an improvement from the baseline, from their point of view.

Also, arrows are cheap and light, so carrying a lot isn't that much of a burden. And DnD treats arrows as interchangeable regardless of differences in bows,* so PCs can also scavenge them pretty easily.

* I'm not talking about short vs. long bows, which while not expressly differentiated in the rules, would be easy to implement. I'm talking about the draw weight, flexibility of arrows, matching arrows to bows, and the Archer's Paradox (I'm not an archer but I read a lot).

 

[gameablecontent]

That's a bit exaggerative. It's more like at the start of a Monopoly game with everybody agreeing about the Free Parking rule. The Free Parking rule doesn't make the game more or less difficult, it just makes it longer, much like how resource tracking isn't particularly difficult but just pads out play with extra steps (arrows, torches, and rations are always dirt cheap in the game economy - it's not like the PCs are scrounging very much).

i'm heartened that you agree that resource tracking isn't hard!

Free parking is not a rule. it is a widely used house rule. and while one may say that there is no ammo tracking rule in d & d, the tracking of resources is clearly a big part of the game. its not like free parking at all. you see the difference, yes?

"low on hp? retreat or press on? low on spells? retreat or press on? low on ammo? no problem i have infinite arrows!" doesn't work for me. the advantage of attacking from range needs to be balanced by the disadvantage of tracking ammo. it's not extra-steps.

i enjoy a serious low-fantasy d&d game with some verisimilitude. You and many others enjoy, and not wrongly, something different. But tracking consumables isn't onerous, sorrowful, or extraneous--it's in the game.