Mechanics Cross-Pollination Thread

[Beoric]

I’m starting this thread as a place where people who want to discuss mechanics can post. The intention is to identify the impact that mechanics has on the game, and how alternative mechanical systems impact the game in different ways. A corollary of this is to clarify the functioning of any mechanic under discussion, in order to facilitate meaningful discussion about the mechanic.

I want to start things off with a comparison of two systems with which I am familiar: the much maligned “death save” mechanics of D&D 4e, and the “Zero hit points” mechanic at p. 82 of the 1e DMG.

The gist of both of these mechanics is that a PC does not die when he is reduced to 0 hit points (or lower). Rather, there is a period of time when the PC is unconscious and dying but not dead, during which period his allies can administer first aid or healing magic and prevent character death. This serves to make both editions less lethal (more forgiving) than a system where character death automatically results at 0 hit points; and forces allies to choose between continuing to engage in combat, or saving the life of their ally. The mechanics, however, are very different, have different impacts on the ongoing game, and create different incentives for players who are trying to determine how to react when a character “drops” to 0 hp.

I’m breaking this up into several posts to make it easier to comment on a particular element of the mechanics.

 

[Beoric]

I will start with the 1e mechanic, which reads:

When any creature is brought to 0 hit points (optionally as low as -3 hit points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0), it is unconscious. In each of the next succeeding rounds 1 additional (negative) point will be lost until -10 is reached and the creature dies. Such loss and death are caused from bleeding, shock, convulsions, non-respiration, and similar causes. It ceases immediately on any round a friendly creature administers aid to the unconscious one. Aid consists of binding wounds, starting respiration, administering a draught (spirits, healing potion, etc.), or otherwise doing whatever is necessary to restore life.

Any character brought to 0 (or fewer) hit points and then revived will remain in a coma for 1-6 turns. Thereafter, he or she must rest for a full week, minimum. He or she will be incapable of any activity other than that necessary to move slowly to a place of rest and eat and sleep when there. The character cannot attack, defend, cast spells, use magic devices, carry burdens, run, study, research, or do anything else. This is true even if cure spells and/or healing potions are given to him or her, although if a heal spell is bestowed the prohibition no longer applies.

The first thing I want to discuss in the indication that the felling blow could bring hit points “optionally as low as -3 hit points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0”. I see two possible interpretations of this. The first, and the one I always used, is that if the blow brought the PC to -4 hp or lower, the PC was automatically dead and this section did not apply. However, it could also be interpreted that no matter how severe the blow was, for the purposes of the rule the PC was always treated as starting at no lower than -3 hp. If anyone knows of an official ruling in this regard, please advise.

Assuming the PC is not outright killed, and is at somewhere between 0 and -3 hp, he then proceeds to bleed out at a rate of 1 hp per round until somebody uses healing magic on him, or binds his wounds. Binding wounds automatically stops the bleeding.

Thereafter, unless a heal spell is used, the PC is out of the fight, and cannot fight or cast spells for at least a week. He is, however, able to get out of the dungeon under his own power, although at a slowed pace.

There is one other point, which may seem evident but which is relevant to the 4e discussion later on. Since the rules appear to be silent on the matter, I assume that any healing that is applied is added to the negative hit point total. So if a character is at -6 hp and receives 3 points of healing from a cure light wounds spell, he will then be at -3 hp (although he has at least stopped bleeding).

I also assume that additional damage (from getting caught in a fireball, or opponents hacking at fallen bodies but not attempting a coup de gras), are deducted from the negative hit point total, and can hasten the trip to -10.

The relevant elements of this mechanic are as follows:

• There may be a possibility of immediate death from the initial blow, if it takes the PC lower than -3 hit points. Otherwise the “Zero hit point” mechanic is in effect.
• If he reaches -10 hit points, he dies
• The rate of bleeding out is predictable, therefore the round of death is predictable
• A bleeding character has a minimum of 7 rounds before he dies
• The binding of wounds automatically succeeds
• Points of healing are added to the negative hit point total
• Unless a heal spell is cast, the character is out of the fight
• Unless a heal spell is cast, the character cannot engage in any further adventuring for at least a week
• The character is able to leave the dungeon and get to a place of rest under his own power

So, other than creating a safety net for characters, what does this mean for game play? Your character is involved in combat and sees one of your party members drop, what do you do about it? Well, nothing for at least 6 rounds, or until the battle is over, whichever comes first.

You likely know the fallen character’s exact hit point total, so you know exactly how long you have, so if he is at -1 hit points you know you have 8 rounds to administer first aid. Success in administering first aid is automatic, so there is no risk in waiting until the last minute (barring coup de gras, etc.). Scarring is possible if he hits -6, but this is purely cosmetic, and the rules do not suggest this results in a change to any ability score including charisma. The character is out of the fight regardless of what you do, so healing him early does not improve the tactical situation. The only incentive to stop the bleeding early is to shorten the number of days required to heal, which will probably be mitigated by cleric magic anyway.

So what if the DM conceals the fallen character’s hit point total? You still know you have a minimum of 6 rounds, and will delay taking any action until then. This is true even if the DM conceals the information as to whether the character died from the initial blow, since if he died, any expenditure of effort in stabilizing him is wasted.

Another impact is that magic will almost never be used to help a fallen character during a battle, short of a heal spell, because first aid requires the same actions, healing is expensive in potions or spell slots, and healing spells can be interrupted.

After the combat is over, the party can wait for the PC to wake up (1-6 turns) or carry him around with them. Once he is awake he can shuffle around under his own power. The party then has the choice of escorting him back to a place of safety to rest; bringing him along while they continue adventuring to which he is unable to contribute (essentially volunteering for an escort mission), which may well require carrying him; or going on without him and letting him take his chances with the wandering monster tables while he slowly makes his way to safety.

(From a simulationist perspective, I am not sure if the 1-6 turn timeframe is correct, I believe I have read that people who have been downed by non-fatal injuries usually only remain unconscious for a few minutes unless they enter a coma, in which case it is much longer.)

Thereafter he is out of commission for at least a week (longer if he is relying on natural healing), and the party has to decide whether to risk further adventuring without him, or stay at home and let the cleric speed up the natural healing process. This is one of many 1e mechanics that forces players to deal with down time, and to spend time in population centres. It may also have a certain simulationist appeal, if that is your preference.

 

[Beoric]

The 4e “death save” mechanics can be found on p. 9 of the Quick Start rules. Here is the summary from p. 260 of the Rules Compendium:

Dying: When an adventurer's hit points drop to 0 or fewer, he or she falls unconscious and is dying. Any additional damage he or she takes continues to reduce that current hit point total until the adventurer dies.

Death Saving Throw: When an adventurer is dying, make a saving throw at the end of that character's turn each round. A death saving throw works just like any other saving throw, but the result determines how close the adventurer is to death.
9 or Lower: The adventurer slips one step closer to death. If this result comes up three times before the adventurer takes a short or an extended rest, he or she dies.
10–19: No change.
20 or Higher: The adventurer taps into his or her will to live, represented by being able to spend a healing surge. If the adventurer has at least one surge left and now spends it, he or she is considered to have 0 hit points, and then the healing surge restores hit points as normal. The adventurer is no longer dying, and he or she is conscious but still prone.

Death: When an adventurer takes damage that reduces his or her current hit points to his or her bloodied value expressed as a negative number, the adventurer dies. Example: Fargrim is a 6th-level dwarf fighter and has a maximum hit point total of 61. He's bloodied at 30 hit points, so he dies if his hit point total drops to -30. In a fight with an umber hulk, Fargrim has been reduced to 28 hit points and is grabbed by the monster; he is now bloodied. The umber hulk then hits him with rending claws, dealing 40 damage and reducing Fargrim's current hit points to -12. He's now unconscious and dying, and 18 more damage will kill him.

Note that the “saving throw” mechanic in 4e is not what you think of as a saving throw in 1e; I mention this in case it becomes relevant to the discussion. For now, just think of it as its own mechanic specific to death saves, even though in reality it has broader application.

In addition, the binding of wounds is not automatically successful; it requires a DC 15 Heal check. Like first aid in 1e, binding wounds takes up the action you would normally use for an attack, so you have to choose between attacking and binding wounds.

The relevant elements of this mechanic are as follows:

• There may be a possibility of immediate death from the initial blow, if it takes the PC to his “negative bloodied value” – essentially half his hit points.
• If he reaches his negative bloodied value of hit points, he dies. An average first level character has about 24 hit points, and would automatically die at -12. Given the amount of damage done by 4e monsters (at least after they changed the math in 2010), this is not all that unlikely.
• Success or failure on death saves is unpredictable, therefore the round of death is unpredictable.
• A fallen character has a minimum of 3 rounds before he dies, and an average of probably 5-6 rounds before he dies
• The binding of wounds does not automatically succeed
• Points of healing are added as if your hit point total was zero
• If a character receives any healing, he may re-enter the fight
• If the character does not die, he is able to continue adventuring after a 5 minute rest, even if he received no healing
• The character is able to leave the dungeon and get to a place of rest under his own power

This changes game play considerably. There is now considerable incentive to stabilize or heal the character, because the moment of death is uncertain, and because attempts to bind wounds are not always successful (I have had some tense moments where the PCs kept flubbing their attempts at first aid).

In addition, there are many effects in 4e that will cause the fallen character to continue to sustain ongoing damage from bleeding, or because his clothes are or fire, or he has acid on him, etc. At low levels this is usually at the rate of 5 hp per round.

Another incentive is created by the fact that a character who receives healing can re-enter the fight, usually at about a quarter of his hit point total. This can cause problems for some simulationists, but only if you equate hit points with actual damage. I have addressed this somewhat in my houserules, which I may explain in a later post.

As a result, there is no default strategy for dealing with a fallen comrade. Tending to him has a cost in terms of combat actions and healing resources, but may get him back into the fight if you have the healing resources to spend. Not tending to him carries a risk of death and ensures he is not available to help in the battle.

Usually if you have minor action healing resources you can use them; but by the time someone is reduced to 0 hp in a battle, you may well be low on healing or out if it entirely.

If you are out of healing magic, then you are limited to first aid which (a) does not always work (b) takes a standard action and prevents you from attacking, and (c) does not enable the character to re-enter the fight. If you are in this position, you can usually safely wait until the first failed death save, or maybe the second if you are not risk averse. Assuming your DM doesn’t roll death saves secretly.

After combat is over, if the character survived he can keep on adventuring, and does not have to spend days or weeks recovering. Unlike 1e, 4e mechanics are designed to avoid enforced periods of downtime, which as a tendency to minimize or remove the downtime elements of the game. It is one of the elements of 4e I am not fond of, and which my houserules are designed to address.

 

[Beoric]

Knowing all this allows you to mix and match the elements, or make houserules that create the effect you want. So if you want players to have to make choices about whether to heal/stabilize a fallen comrade, but it offends your sense of verisimilitude if they can hop up and rejoin combat after receiving healing, then you can use a death save mechanic but use 1e’s 1-6 turn coma, or some similar mechanic. And if you like enforced downtime you can keep that (if you are starting with 1e) or add a similar mechanic (if you are playing 4e).

I like the idea of there being risk if fallen PCs are not treated. I don’t mind PCs rejoining the fight but agree that it can be jarring for some conceptions of hit points. I also want to force downtime from time to time. So I have made houserules as follows.

For the most part I use death saves as written. However, I added a variant on the 4e disease mechanic to incorporate injuries into the game. For those of you familiar with 4e, I have notionally rewritten every monster so that it grants a disease.

Contracting a disease generally requires that you be hit by a monster, and fail a saving throw at some point; it gets worse if you fail periodic checks. For my disease-as-injury mechanic, if you fail one death save you get a “stage 1” minor injury (temporary blurred vision, speed penalty due to limp, minor penalty to one or more abilities, etc.). If you fail 2 death saves you get a moderate injury (weakness, significant vision impairment, slowed, difficulty standing, etc.). If you fail 3 death saves you die or get a debilitating injury (lose a limb, permanent deafness or blindness, long term coma, permanent brain injury, etc.).

This accomplishes several things. First of all, it increases the risk of not healing comrades, so it isn’t even safe to wait for that first failed death save.

Second, it divorces the concept of “damage” from the concept of “hit points”, which allows me to reflavour hit points as a measure of remaining stamina. This makes the whole second wind and healing surge mechanic make a lot more sense, since you are not healing damage but merely regaining lost stamina, and explains why someone can get up again after they have been beaten down.

Third, it forces downtime, since I have control over the duration of the period checks to improve if someone is injured.

Fourth, a PC with a debilitating injury can’t keep adventuring, just like in 1e, with the added problem that the party will probably have to carry him out. While it is true that lesser injuries in theory allow the PC to continue, the player and the party will have to consider just how far they are willing to push their luck, since the PC’s combat effectiveness has probably been compromised, which makes for an interesting decision point for them. And I like interesting decision points.

It also has other benefits, but those relate to mechanics and elements of gameplay that I haven’t discussed.

EDIT: I should mention that for this modification to the mechanic to work, you need to buy in to the idea that when a character falls, noone knows how badly hurt he is until his condition is observed; he has Schroedinger's injury. The heal check for first aid it therefore a check to diagnose any injury, and take further action to stabilize if required; it is not be default an attempt to bind wounds.

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

I use a rule in Into the Depths (my homebrew OSR system) where when a PC drops to 0 or below, the DM rolls 2d6 secretly, and that's the number of rounds before the PC dies unless aid is administered. To administer aid, a character must roll 5+ on 1d6 (5+ on 1d8 if another PC helps, 3+ if they're "good at" something healing related; carrying bandages auto-stabilises but consumes the bandage). It's very simple, it averages out to give quite a bit of time (7 rounds on average) and it encourages rushing over since you may have as few as two rounds, but it's not as dependent on HP calculations.

Here's the ruleset for the interested.

 

[Two orcs]

I used the ACKS Mortal Wounds Table. Going to 0 or below knocks the character out, then when someone administers healing (or just slaps them in the face) you roll to see how bad the injury was with penalties for waiting longer and bonuses for healing proficiency or healing magic. Typically this results in a permanent injury and required weeks of bed rest, but sometimes you're unscathed and sometimes instantly dead (especially in deeply negative HP). The long term result is adventurers accumulate small or gain large injuries making them incapable so they will need to either retire or have Restore Life & Limb cast on them, this is ACKS's version of Raise Dead but it also heals all permanent injuries in the living. This instead causes permanent injuries to the soul (from the quirky to the devastating) and the worse state the body is in the worse the soul injury and the longer the time of recovery (usually a couple of week) though it's also possible to fail to restore (each revive is a permanent -1 to the next attempt).

This system produces a lot of minor injuries, like damaged hips etc. which might be realistic long term problems for warrior but not exciting for the players. There were also too few deaths from battle injuries for my liking, most deaths happened either when a downed character had to be left behind or from poison. I also removed the cleric from my game so there was very little healing available for the players (though consuming drink after a fight restores 1d3 hp to give an expedition a little more staying power).

My current house rules:
At 0 or fewer HP roll 1d6
1 - Instant messy death (3 rolls on mutilation table, makes Restore Life & Limb more problematic, good imagery)
2 - Mortal wound (incapacitation, death in 1 turn, can speak last words)
3 - Critical wound (incapacitation, death in 1 turn unless healed to positive hp, after this wounded state similar to AD&D for 2d4 weeks, 1 roll mutilation table)
4 - Serious wound (incapacitation till healed to positive hp, wounded state as above)
5 - Maimed but standing (1 roll on mutilation table)
6 - Dazed (knocked out 1 round)

The mutilation table is short and to the point. Knocked out teeth, impressive or gruesome scars, lost limbs, the shakes (-1 to all rolls unless tipsy), scalped - must be visceral above all. Also, characters in the wounded state may act normally for one round but this opens their wounds and they need a new roll on the death table (and go to 0 hp if not already).

This table makes the result of running out of hp more chaotic, instead of tension from a death clock the tension is from the characters still in the fight at negative hp. The odds are very easy, 1/3 death 1/3 incapacitation 1/3 mostly fine.

 

[Johann]

That's a very thorough analysis, Beoric. I like how you lay out how it affects not only tactics and suspense, but also our understanding of the game world (regarding hit points).

Consider the following methods of character generation in regard to the implied game world:

1. Roll 3d6-in-order, then choose your class.

This actually implies a rather optimistic, individualistic worldview: people follow their natural inclinations and talents. People with an extraordinary talent (Str 18) will put it to good use etc.

2. Choose your class, then roll 3d6-in-order.

This produces unusual characters (strong wizards etc.) and also makes a statement about the world: People do not pick their profession; rather it is picked for them by society. So you're a strong wizard? Well, maybe you are one of the few with the gift of magic and that's why you are apprenticed to the village witch, regardless of your awesome talent for fighting. Tough luck. You're highly intelligent but a fighter? Maybe this is a feudal society and the local lord needed more grunts.

There are other things to consider such as simplicity (as mentioned or implied above) or even the 'feel' of a mechanic (Does the player roll his PC's save or does the NPC wizard roll to overcome the PC's Fortitude?).

I personally love 4e's duration mechanics (i.e. rolling every round to shake off a condition rather than rolling a die initially to see how long it will last). Easier to keep track of, more suspense, a glimmer of hope each round, occasional freak results.

 

[Beoric]

I note that any system that requires the players to roll stats in order sets a fatalistic tone before the game even begins. Right from character generation players are given the understanding that they are at the mercy of the dice, and that they have to make so with whatever they are given.

That has a certain appeal to me, but I can understand why if I wanted to sell a game to (mostly) North Americans I would do something different. Fatalism is not a particularly common or even respected quality in North America. I toy with ideas for random character generation in 4e, but not seriously because I think it would be hard to sell to some of my players.

I have mixed feelings about the 4e duration mechanics, but unfortunately I don't have time to expand on that right now.

 

[Johann]

The fatalism is another good point -- I've never considered that.

I run a very deadly campaign, so telegraphing that there are things beyond one's control (e.g. one will be at the mercy of the dice) is probably a plus (fostering the right expectations), but the game is not for everyone. And if marketing concerns entered the picture, things would get a lot more complicated...

Looking forward to more mechanical analysis (if you do find the time).

 

[Beoric]

Hmm, now that I think about it, a lot of my issues with the 4e duration mechanics were resolved when I figured out how to do interesting things with the disease mechanic. For example, I felt like the duration was too short to be interesting for some monsters. Ghoul paralyzation, for instance, is a lot more interesting if it lasts for up to an hour instead of only a couple of rounds, and the party has to hole up or lug your body around for an uncertain amount of time. Same goes for certain drugs and poisons. But if you use the disease mechanic to introduce longer term conditions, and make your checks every 10 minutes instead of every day, it gets a whole lot more interesting.

I do find aftereffects and effects that only happen on a failed save to be cumbersome. I also don't like how granting a save requires use of the Heal skill; I feel like certain saves should require different skill or ability checks (like if someone is on fire or has their feet frozen in ice, for instance).

 

[Johann]

I have modified the mechanic, too. In my homebrew, various effects allow for recovery (e.g. being charmed or stunned) or delay (e.g. dying).

Rather than a standardized success at 10+ on a d20 as per 4e, rolls happen at various intervals (rounds, minutes, turns, hours etc.) and success happens on 2+ to 6 on a d6.

I like the uncertainty and that don't have to track rounds in combat anymore; the players like getting a chance to get back into the action every round ("stunned for 4 rounds" sucks).

The logistics of having a party member incapacitated (e.g. by a ghoul's touch) certainly make for interesting play.

 

[Beoric]

I have talked a couple of times about using 4e "swarm" rules to build military units that PCs can interact with, to allow a military unit to be treated as a single "monster" and avoid a hundred-odd pages of mass-combat rules. A commander then uses his level and/or abilities to modify morale (and initiative, depending on the system).

I never seem to get any traction with it, so I thought I would use the mass-combat @squeen was kind enough to detail in another thread to illustrate how it might work.

This is dead easy in 4e because there are a lot of existing mechanics that can be used. is a lot harder in 1e because there is no such thing. I ended up formulating the ideas in 4e, and then translating it to 1e, using a conversion table I made for myself that translates 4e monster level to expected 1e XP value. I then used worked backward from the XP value to come up with a hit die number for the unit.

Because the XP table only goes up to 21 HD, and military units don't tend to have any extraordinary abilities, I found I needed to break squeen's units into smaller units. For example, the expected XP value for a unit of 120 men at arms ended up being almost exactly the same as the XPs for Demogorgon, and the table just wouldn't get me there. So I broke up the units. I also gave the units a lower attack value when attacking individuals, since you can't really apply the full force of the unit to one guy.

I had trouble figuring out the appropriate damage amount for unit-on-unit combat (I haven't played 1e in a long time), so I left that a question mark. I also didn't take the time to figure out what level a commander should be, or his effective command radius (to convert from ACKS, I would postulate at least level 7, and able to command a number of adjacent units of the same type which are adjacent to each other and which total up to 120 infantry or 60 cavalry).

Anyway, here is what I came up with for the Veteran Heavy Infantry in the "Grip" Unit:

VETERAN HEAVY INFANTRY (24 level 1 fighters)

Armor Class: 3
Move: 6”
Hit Dice: 16 (4e level 24 std, 1e target XP 14,000)
No. of Attacks: 1 melee attack against enemy units or Spear Volley, plus 1 attack against each adjacent individual enemy
Damage/Attack: By weapon type (use large weapon damage against large creatures; multiple weapon damage against units?)
Special Attacks: Spear Volley, Set Spears, Tide of Iron
Special Defences: Defensive Formations
Size: 20’ x 20’

Semi-porous: Individuals or units may enter the unit’s space. If trying to do so through the unit’s front, enemies must succeed in an open doors check; enemy units use the average check score for the members of their unit. Individuals in the unit’s space move at 1/3 rate unless traveling in the direction and at the speed of the unit. The unit makes attacks against enemies in its space at +4 to hit.
Damage Resistance/Vulnerability: The unit takes half damage from melee or ranged attacks by individuals, and double damage from area of effect attacks.
Cover the Commander: The unit provides superior cover to medium or smaller individuals in its space, and may provide a degree of cover to larger creatures depending upon the size of the creature and at the DM’s discretion.
Tide of Iron: The unit makes a melee attack against another unit. If the attack hits, the enemy unit is pushed back 10’ and the Veteran Heavy Infanty unit moves forward 10’
Spear Volley: 3 shots, requires that a commander be present. The unit makes a ranged spear attack against a unit and all individuals occupying the unit’s space. On a hit, a target using a defensive formation must save vs (breath weapon?) or lose the use of its shields for the remainder of the battle.
Can Hit the Broad Side of a Barn: the unit attacks medium or smaller individuals as if it was a 4 HD monster, and large individuals as if it was a 5 HD monster

Formations
Formations may only be changed if a commander is present, although it may cease to use a formation if a commander is not present (for example, if it is Set Spears formation and its commander is killed, it can stay in that formation or choose to use no formation). It takes an action to change formations.
Tortoise Formation: move half speed, attacks by and against enemies made at -5 except melee attacks against flank or rear, +5 to saving throws at DM’s discretion. Medium or smaller allied individuals in the unit’s space gain the benefit of this effect in addition to any other protection granted by the unit.
Shield Wall Formation: move at half speed, melee attacks against the unit made at -2 if made against the unit’s front
Set Spears: no movement possible, it receiving a charge do double damage and stop enemy movement

 

[Beoric]

The Veteran Heavy Infantry until took a while to figure out, but one I had that template it was easy to make others. Here is the regular Heavy Infantry for comparison:

HEAVY INFANTRY (30 level 0 men-at-arms)

Armor Class: 4
Move: 9”
Hit Dice: 11 (4e level 21-22 std, 1e target XP 5,300-7,400)
No. of Attacks: 1 melee attack against enemy units or Spear Volley, plus 1 attack against each adjacent individual enemy
Damage/Attack: By weapon type (use large weapon damage against large creatures; multiple weapon damage against units?)
Special Attacks: Spear Volley, Set Spears, Tide of Iron
Special Defences: Defensive Formations
Size: 30’ x 30’

Semi-porous: Individuals or units may enter the unit’s space. If trying to do so through the unit’s front, enemies must succeed in an open doors check; enemy units use the average check score for the members of their unit. Individuals in the unit’s space move at 1/3 rate unless traveling in the direction and at the speed of the unit. The unit makes attacks against enemies in its space at +4 to hit.
0-level: Melee attacks by enemy individuals inside the unit’s space do double damage instead of half damage.
Damage Resistance/Vulnerability: The unit takes half damage from melee or ranged attacks by individuals, and double damage from area of effect attacks.
Cover the Commander: The unit provides superior cover to medium or smaller individuals in its space, and may provide a degree of cover to larger creatures depending upon the size of the creature and at the DM’s discretion.
Tide of Iron: requires a commander to be present. The unit makes a melee attack against another unit. If the attack hits, the enemy unit is pushed back 10’ and the Veteran Heavy Infanty unit moves forward 10’
Spear Volley: 3 shots, requires that a commander be present. The unit makes a ranged spear attack against a unit and all individuals occupying the unit’s space. On a hit, a target using a defensive formation must save vs (breath weapon?) or lose the use of its shields for the remainder of the battle.
Can Hit the Broad Side of a Barn: the unit attacks medium or smaller individuals as if it was a 2 HD monster, and large individuals as if it was a 3 HD monster

Formations
Formations may only be changed if a commander is present, although it may cease to use a formation if a commander is not present (for example, if it is Set Spears formation and its commander is killed, it can stay in that formation or choose to use no formation). It takes an action to change formations.
Tortoise Formation: move half speed, attacks by and against enemies made at -5 except melee attacks against flank or rear, +5 to saving throws at DM’s discretion. Medium or smaller allied individuals in the unit’s space gain the benefit of this effect in addition to any other protection granted by the unit.
Shield Wall Formation: move at half speed, melee attacks against the unit made at -2 if made against the unit’s front
Set Spears: no movement possible, it receiving a charge do double damage and stop enemy movement

 

[Beoric]

And here are the Bowmen:

BOWMEN (30 level 0 men-at-arms)

Armor Class: 7
Move: 12”
Hit Dice: 11 (4e level 21-22 std, 1e target XP 5,300-7,400)
No. of Attacks: 1 attack against enemy units, plus 1 melee attack against each adjacent individual enemy
Damage/Attack: By weapon type (use large weapon damage against large creatures; multiple weapon damage against units?)
Special Attacks: Archer Volley
Special Defences: None
Size: 30’ x 30’

Semi-porous: Individuals or units may enter the unit’s space. If trying to do so through the unit’s front, enemies must succeed in an open doors check; enemy units use the average check score for the members of their unit. Individuals in the unit’s space move at 1/2 rate unless traveling in the direction and at the speed of the unit. The unit makes melee attacks against enemies in its space at +4 to hit.
0-level: Melee attacks by enemy individuals inside the unit’s space do double damage instead of half damage.
Damage Resistance/Vulnerability: The unit takes half damage from melee or ranged attacks by individuals, and double damage from area of effect attacks.
Cover the Commander: The unit provides some cover to medium or smaller individuals in its space.
Archer Volley: 30 shots, requires that a commander be present. The unit makes a ranged attack against a unit and all individuals occupying the unit’s space, and does double damage against the target unit if it hits.
Can Hit the Broad Side of a Barn: the unit attacks medium or smaller individuals as if it was a 2 HD monster, and large individuals as if it was a 3 HD monster

 

[squeen]

Give me some time to absorb this...(still trying to learn ACKS!)

 

[The Heretic]

I have talked a couple of times about using 4e "swarm" rules to build military units that PCs can interact with, to allow a military unit to be treated as a single "monster" and avoid a hundred-odd pages of mass-combat rules. A commander then uses his level and/or abilities to modify morale (and initiative, depending on the system).

Pathfinder did something like this, though I can't remember if they ended up adding it to any of their Bestiaries. It was in a Pathfinder adventure that introduced Rasputin as an NPC. He was guarded by Russian infantry in a "swarm", IIRC.

(They had Rasputin be a son of Baba Yaga, which is pretty awesome when you think about it)

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

PF 1e distinguishes swarms from troops, which are similar but composed of ordinary organized soldiers. And yeah, it's a clever mechanical solution for handling the issue.

 

[Beoric]

Give me some time to absorb this...(still trying to learn ACKS!)

No, you should run your ACKS scenario first so you have something to compare it to.

 

[Beoric]

Here is an ogre unit:

OGRES (10 Ogres)

Armor Class: 5
Move: 9”
Hit Dice: 18 (4e level 23 std, 1e target XP 10,000)
No. of Attacks: 1 attack against enemy units, plus 1 melee attack against each adjacent individual enemy
Damage/Attack: 1-10 or by weapon (multiple damage against units?)
Special Attacks: None
Special Defences: None
Size: 30’ x 30’

Semi-porous: Individuals or units may enter the unit’s space. If trying to do so through the unit’s front, enemies must succeed in an open doors check; enemy units use the average check score for the members of their unit. Individuals in the unit’s space move at 1/2 rate unless traveling in the direction and at the speed of the unit. The unit makes melee attacks against enemies in its space at +4 to hit.
Damage Resistance/Vulnerability: The unit takes half damage from melee or ranged attacks by individuals, and double damage from area of effect attacks.
Cover the Commander: The unit provides cover to large or smaller individuals in its space.
Can Hit the Broad Side of a Barn: the unit attacks medium or smaller individuals as if it was a 5 HD monster, and large individuals as if it was a 7 HD monster

 

[TerribleSorcery]

Hmmm I like this, and the numbers make sense to me.

Just wondering. Ogres individually have 4+1 HD in 1st. So 10 ogres would be about 40 HD. You have 18 here. If we account for their damage resistance, that's an 'effective hit dice' of 36 vs. individuals, certainly close enough for me. Do you think it would be different if we skipped that special ability and just gave the squad 36-40 straight up HD? I suppose this must be balanced against the damage each unit deals against other units as well as against individual PCs.

How does this conversion table of yours work that you mentioned above? I have never played 4th but perhaps it might be useful to those of us who like juggling things around between various editions.