Illusions

Now that I think of it, you might want to try moving the icons from their spot in-line with the top paragraph over to the spot right after the room number/title. I believe it would make them more legible, and I think might help your room keys have an overall cleaner look (especially if you feel comfortable employing a right-justified icon set).

It may sound like I'm jumping in with too many ideas, maybe assuming control in some small way. Not my intent, so I apologize if it seems like I'm stuffing changes down your throat. For what it's worth, I went to design school and I'm professionally-trained in layout & publication.
 
DangerousPuhson said:
Now that I think of it, you might want to try moving the icons from their spot in-line with the top paragraph over to the spot right after the room number/title. I believe it would make them more legible, and I think might help your room keys have an overall cleaner look (especially if you feel comfortable employing a right-justified icon set).
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I though the same thing. Maybe right justified after the title. I'm going to need to figure out how to get LaTeX to do that with some easy macros.

DangerousPuhson said:
It may sound like I'm jumping in with too many ideas, maybe assuming control in some small way. Not my intent, so I apologize if it seems like I'm stuffing changes down your throat. For what it's worth, I went to design school and I'm professionally-trained in layout & publication.
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On the contrary! Why else post them if you don't want feedback and ideas? I will definitely ignore what doesn't suit my particular tastes..

Many thanks!
 
Its getting pretty busy. To be honest, I would have to work with the whole of your formatting for a while to see if it ever became intuitive. I think I prefer black and white icons, but I really can't be sure.

I find the yellow icons draw my eye so strongly it is hard to focus on the text.

squeen said:
I felt like the light bulbs were too anachronistic, but considered them. (Same with speaker)
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Um, torches or candles?
 
I think EOTB and Beoric are both correct. Too many primary colors makes everything look all tuity-fruity. The yellow is just too strong and out-of-palette. Both with the text and the maps I prefer a very shallow color pallet. It just looks more "professional". The one exception that works for me is the blue hyper-referencing.

That's honestly where I started, but the black-sun never looked quite right. I should find a good torch, but I didn't really want to use an image-icon, these are just embedded glyphs in the font (less over-head in a large document).

I am switching back to black & white (or gray-shades) for now. To heck the darn sun!

That leaves us here:

encounter-icon.png

What I am after:
  • helping the DM know immediatelywhich visceral elements should pop out at the players.
    • Those are sight, sound, smell and also the "unpredictable motions" of other living creatures (encounters). Faster play. Fewer mistakes. To that end, too much visual clutter (icons everywhere) is probably worse than none at all.
    • fewer DM errors (mine) --- particularly with regards to lighting
  • something visually pleasing on the eye.
    • An adventure book should draw the DM in to a comfortable mental place---ownership of the text.
    • I see maps as both DM utilities AND illustrations that also make the book inviting and easy to find your place. Just like the text, I am reluctantly to clutter them or make them too garrish with colors/labels/icons.
  • layers of the onion via cross-referencing
    • the blue cross-referencing are there to allow for more in-depth details without wall-of-text impenetrability
    • For some reason my eye catches on blue, but does not fixate on it (like yellow) --- especially the darker shades.
    • blue cross-ref still permits use of independent (normal) black bolding---which is visually stronger than just italics
  • I stubbornly want an icon for darkness. Probably should just like it go...
 
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squeen said:
I see maps as both DM utilities AND illustrations that also make the book inviting and easy to find your place. Just like the text, I am reluctantly to clutter them or make them too garrish with colors/labels/icons.
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It's a shame you are so adamant to leave maps untouched - they really are the best place to denote light/sound/smell as well as encounters, specifically because it's when the DM is looking at the map that he will most need that information (needs to know if there's light coming from down the hall, or movement from behind the door, or monsters within earshot, or whatever).

I have some examples if you'd like to see how I do them.
 
Here is my basic map style from one segment of my megadungeon project. I've included three maps in the link: the overview map of the area, a less intense B&W variant, and what I call a "bite map" (small section of the overview map to go in with the room keys to save on page flipping).

The light situation is captured in the room numbers on the map - black numbers mean dark rooms, any other color is the color/intensity of light in the room (area A1, for example, is lit by exterior sunlight and so the "A1" is white. Area D17 is illuminated by a pool of lava, so the "D17" is orange.) Exclamation mark icons next to room numbers denote a hazard that must be brought to player attention before they choose to enter the room (because something can hurt them or they'll need to take precautions, and it's not exactly fair to let them wander into it without warning). I've captured monster/NPC locations with "X"s which also shows their initial hostility (red stroke border indicates something that attacks on sight, black means hesitation or neutrality or just a threat that's not immediate), along with enemy patrol routes/reinforcement plans (arrows, with stroke border on the arrow denoting either reactive movement or passive movement), and things like locked/stuck doors, traps (with area of effect), and obstacles like barricades (like those in front of the D6/7 door).

Things may look cluttered with all the info, but remember that the DM only needs to look at the spots adjacent to where the party is now, not the entire map all at once - you'll notice that when looking at the bite map things seems less chaotic, even though the situation hasn't changed at all in the dungeon, and the bite map is just a cropped/layer-adjusted pull-out from the main map.

I made these a couple years ago, so there are some things I'd change if I were to do it again (for instance, I have no indicators of sound sources).
 
Very nice maps. Lava! Lots of good inter-connectivity. You could probably anticipate that my tastes lean heavily towards more muted colors---but that's just my preferred old-man's ascetic.

Movement 'X's and lines for battle --- think I might just include those on the zoomed-in "inset" maps.

I'd also suggest the exclaimation-point-in-a-triangle as the standard warning symbol.

I think you may have hit upon a real neat and simple idea---having the style of the room number convey something about the lighting. That's very elegant, and something I'd like to play with. Black or outline letters for unlit --- white or solid letters if lit???
Hmm...might work...

Thanks for sharing.
 
Its funny how may of these things I no longer think about because I use a VTT. When I want to light a room, I place lights in the room. I don't need an order of battle, because I can see all the monsters on the map, and can see lines of retreat and where support will come from. I do need information on sounds and smells, but I usually place an "Information" marker with stuff like that and click the marker to get all the information that is not obvious from the map.

I like how DP's maps are simpler than most modern maps. I was trying the modern quasi-realistic style for a while, but it took too damn long to draw maps, and my players got way too invested in the set dressing ("What's with that rock that's brighter then the rest?" "That's just an artefact of the dungeon design program." "Is that something hiding in the corner?" "No, it's just shadows caused by mood lighting, ignore it."). I tend to go quite minimalist now, only including details that are actually relevant.
 
Wow. That's kind of a big deal really. VTTs will probably reshape the hobby. In many ways, having proper computer-aided DMing was a pipe-dream...but now?

Can you post a "modern map"?

Still, for old-school paper-published material...
 
squeen said:
Wow. That's kind of a big deal really. VTTs will probably reshape the hobby. In many ways, having proper computer-aided DMing was a pipe-dream...but now?

Can you post a "modern map"?

Still, for old-school paper-published material...
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You can do more complex things with a VTT that would totally not be worth the effort in a pencil and paper game. Anything that requires tracking by round, or complex math. If they build it in, like dynamic lighting, it doesn't require much effort to use either.

On the other hand, if you are like me and try to make it do everything but make you a sandwich, it can be a bit of a time hog out of game, but the game itself can run like a dream. The modified framework I use will let you make several attacks at a time and automatically determines if attacks hit, calculates damage, deducts the damage from enemy hit points, tells me if they are bloodied or dying, tracks any conditions that are applied, and gives me various reminders of the sort of things I am likely to forget. Gear is tracked on the token, as is encumbrance. And of course it rolls and tracks initiative for every creature in a battle. Dynamic lighting means there is no confusion about what a creature can see. It will calculate how far the creatures can move in a round, and will slow them down if they have to cross difficult terrain.

I find that running the combat and movement is so much easier that I can devote a lot more mental energy to roleplaying the NPCs. So leaders are shouting orders in combat, which PCs might be able to decipher, and I never lose track of NPC motivations.

As for the map, of course now that I'm on the spot I have had a hell of a time finding examples online. It also looks like the new stuff may be cleaned up, so maybe other people were having the same problem. Anyway, here is an example; look at the set dressing in room 4 or the pile of treasure in room 9/10 for the sort of stock details that can cause confusion.

One my my pet peeves is the representation of trees in outdoor maps. Cartographers always draw in the canopy. No matter how many times I remind my players, they always seem to forget that the canopy is above their heads, and provides no cover or concealment against enemies on the forest floor. When I draw forest maps, I draw the trunk and the shadow of the canopy. Then I can add undergrowth only if I want it.
 
I think I am long winded---that's not exactly right (no snarkastic comments please!)...I think I mention (briefly!) a lot of superflilous details for setting and mood, so my players actual miss a lot (i.e. walk past treasure all the time).
 
See, those maps are nice and spare, with only relevant details and possibly (consciously placed) red herrings. A red herring or two is fine; having several unintentional red herrings is not.

I tend to be light on the red herrings, but I note that at least some of your otherwise empty rooms need red herrings, or players will be able to tell whether actual content is present based on whether a room is empty or not.

Basically, if it is the sort of thing that you would describe to players as soon as they look in the room, it belongs on the map. Otherwise, it doesn't, or it becomes the visual equivalent of wall-of-text.
 
With digital art like that at your fingertips and a scrolling presentation to the players via a screen (is it a flat panel layed down like a game table? What size.), I can see why there is little buzz about print-map rendering.

Wow. The mind boggles at the possibilities.
 
squeen said:
(is it a flat panel layed down like a game table? What size.)
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Several years ago I saw a youtube demo of some people who used a large screen on its back set ups as an actual tabletop. I think it was touch sensitive with the intention that you could place actual figures on it and have the program recognize them. But pretty much everyone just runs them off their laptop, or maybe projects them on their TV. I think this works better anyway, since if you use the screen as a table you have nowhere to put your books and paper without obscuring the view.

It ends up being a different physical space. When I am running games with people at home, especially with players not familiar with the tech, I project a players' map on my TV. That has us playing on the couches instead of at a table. Sometimes I have a desk with two screens, but most times I just sit on the couch with my feet up on an ottoman and a laptop on my lap, with an end table beside me with any paper I think I might need to look at. I toy with the idea of setting it up more like a boardroom, with a large screen on the wall, but I don't think I want the room to feel that businesslike.
 
Played twice (!) this weekend...was Father's Day after all. :)

The players managed to leave the Aether Islands with a bunch of loot, and also freed the trapped prisoners (old Wizard's Guild magicians) in the Maze/Tesseract. They even handled the Abomination in the Pit deftly after finding some clues in old books on how the Witch Queen's priests used to wear golden robes and staffs to corral the beast towards its intended victim.

Here's some more Player Feedback I got directly:
  • The threat of wandering monsters in the Ethereal Plane (Aether Islands) was too much (too often). They thought that after the top-predator, i.e. the Phase Minotaur, was vanquished, then it would take months to a years for anything else to start showing up. They didn't know this directly, but inferred I was checking much more often: I had local wandering monsters at 1 in 6 per turn, and "Visitors from the Void" arriving at the island at 1 in 20 per turn. ***NEVER ACTUALLY FOUGHT A SINGLE RANDOM MONSTER***
    • SUMMARY: They felt pressured by the wandering monster checked and hurried to leave. I loved the heightened tension---they didn't.
  • Our thief complained that my more diligent tracking of lightning (oil usage/turn for lanterns, when infravision is spoiled and the limits of it's discerning power, etc.) is "not fun" (hi DP!) and we should hand-waive it more (like we used to). What I noticed was once I started caring about lighting (and who was holding the lantern) then suddenly pints of oil became precious commodities. Also, a small, seemly minor magic item they recovered from the waters beneath the Earth Temple---a tiny glowing brine-shrimp in a amber-egg---has now become one of their most used and mentioned items. It gets "passed around". Silly really, the cleric can cast continual light (but I have a house rule that the spell casters can maintain two "permanent" spells like continual light/invisibility per level simultaneously).
    • SUMMARY: light has become a resource. Minor magic is now valuable. I like that---they claim they don't.
Here's some general Design/Format observations that hit me:
  • FULL BRYCIAN FORMAT: The areas I wrote up in The Format (see below) were MUCH easier to run. I found myself wishing I had time to clean up everything. It really makes DMing so much easier. No joke. Is you look at this weekend's post Obsidian Keep, you see another example of that format.
    • Just what your senses detect first, separated from greater detail below
    • blue-text (or underlined) cross-referencing for closer examination
    • terse but with evocative details
    • LORE segregated from the essential-at-the-table (functional) text
  • INSET MAPS: These local zoom-in's are SO helpful for larger maps. They immediately let you know where you are in the text, and organize the content in such a helpful way. When I didn't have it, I was flipping around like an idiot...and I wrote this stuff! On the pages with an inset map, I was golden. I knew immediately where to find the keyed text. I can't emphasize enough how helpful they are.
  • SMALL ICONS: Totally working for me. Aren't ugly or distracting. Don't get in the way of the text. Super-valuable for lighting. I'm sold.
Lastly, some Content observations:
  • Interesting Treasure: I already mentioned the glowing-shrimp and how it pleased me that something that doesn't lob fireballs is valued. Adiitionally, I also put a stack of gold bars with the stamp from the Treasury in the the corrupted Prince's abode instead of the usual/boring "chest of gold pieces". This had a few effects:
    • they wondered (a lot) why it was there --- and tied it to references in the banned tomes about the priests' golden robes. End up melting it down and making their own protective tools.
    • made them worry about selling it
    • continued to paint a picture of a rotten Prince turned to evil (family theft)---minor, but I liked what they were inferring without being explicitly told. Bryce talks about this sometimes. Show, Don't Tell. This went to the next level when they found his hidden laboratory where he was cutting up cadavers and had turned street orphans into ghouls through forced cannibalization. The player's openly commented on how he's "worse than they thought". Remember these is just clues scattered about the world about Lareth (from T1 and long dead), his outstanding gifts, overwhelming Pride, and fall into depravity. The hated him as a arch enemy, killed him eventually, are masquerading as him currently, following the clues left behind from his inquisitive mind during his youth, and now finally seeing the places unchecked arrogance took him. I think they've gone through a full emotional spectrum with regards to how they feel about this one particular character in the world. HATE-FAMILIARITY-RESPECT-AFFINITY-HORROR. He's been a weird thread tying so much together over the years. It seems like there has got to be SOMETHING universal in Adventure Design to be learned from this. I mean, I never read them some long wall-of-text about the dude. Never! ...And yet, just by thinking through the logic consequences of what it might mean to be "the dark hope of Chaos", i.e. a brilliant and charismatic organizer, and thinking through the elements of his life, they have felt his hand (and other Larger Than Life historical figures) many places. Show. Don't Tell. indeed.
    • they've are totally struggling with encumbrance---how to cart large items to some place safe. They are dreaming about owning their own tower/demesne.
  • Environmental Clues: EOTB was saying that, unlike the VTT (above), that in theater-of-the-mind style play, that any mentioned detail tends to get picked up as important by the players. Well, mine don't. I don't think that's because they are bad players, instead---when I take the time to really flesh out (write up) an area, and am trying to be evocative (in a show-don't-tell manner)---the little window-dressing details get included to sell the story. I routinely (and my players have started calling it "do your little spiel") try to verbally paint a pitcure of the room and include some of those little scene-setting details. That ends up jumbling up what's important with window-dressing. What I liked from last session was that they entered a hidden room with skeletons hanging on the wall...and completely ignored them until they jumped down to attack (gaining surprise)! Why on Earth didn't they assume that skeletons would attack? Because, there are lots of skeletons, bones, etc. in an old dungeon. They got lured into a false sense of normalcy, and immediately started rifling through the OTHER cool stuff in the room. (Of course, they were kicking themselves, later.) Also related to Environmental Clues is how I am amazed at how often the players pieced together the unspoken back-story---even to the extend of saying out loud what I thought the NPCs were once thinking. Stuff like, "this room is so inaccessible, I'm sure he didn't feel the need to hide stuff in here." My (unspoken) thoughts exactly!
  • Open Ended Challenges: They surprised me again and again. Making their own gold-plated weapons. Using Hold Portal in a clever way to over-come an obstacle I had intentionally designed into the scenario to slow them down and limit their success. The list goes on...and I just smile and am secretly both pleased and disappointed they totally bi-passed my mental scenario. DP thinks it's a cop-out to "not draft a proper solution", but heck, there is something to the notion that all you have to do is build the Safe and your players will find a way to crack it open.
  • Allies: The players used the Exorcism spell to free the fallen Minotaur from his Curse and gained an ally/local-guide. The have gotten good at leveraging the in-world knowledge of NPCs to avoid tons of pitfalls. Having a local guide is invaluable. There's something fundamental in Grand Design lurking in that notion...I think. Bryce vocally hates "The Tell-All Journal" --- well...how about the Rescued Guide as an information source?
  • EOTB-style Illusions: (the long-lost topic of this thread) They totally work. Just treat illusions as 100% real in terms of cause-and-effect unless the PCs take a leap-of-faith action to DEMONSTRATE disbelief (and then, and only then, do they get their saving throw). He's right, half the time, they never knew they were dealing with illusions. You, as DM, must resist the urge to drop obvious hints. There is so much magic players assume the impossible is possible...and react.
  • Higher Level Play: It's tough. They players have so many resources at their finger tips. But, again taking EOTB's advice, I just "Let them win". They are starting to really tear it up. He's an example: teleported out of the dungeon as soon as they accomplished their objective (freed the prisoners). Bam! Done. Also, as Huso says: there is no way to challenge them with One Big Baddie---it's got to be waves of attrition.
All these little pieces as you slowly learn about the game. An amazing experience and journey to DM.

EDIT: Last comment: PLAY TEST! You learn so much about what's missing when you play test. Wish I could run the campaign a dozen times just to iron out the garbage and find the holes.
 
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