General Discussion

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Thanks for the heads. Up. Someday I'll learn how to make "D&D the video game" work on VTT.

I know that may sounds disparaging, but I don't mean to knock it. It was always the dream to one day have something like that.
They are gorgeous even if you don't use them in a VTT. Also, you can print them out for a reference.

If the engineer in you likes tinkering you might try MapTools from RPTools. Lots of your own macro-building to be done to get things exactly the way you want them. I quite enjoy the tinkering when I have time.
 

Yora

Should be playing D&D instead
Back in 2002, there was Neverwinter Nights, which was specifically build as a videogame in which you can slap together environments quickly and give one player control over all the NPCs and monsters and to spawn in all kinds of stuff on the go.
The game was ugly as sin and gives you eye cancer, but it did work pretty well if the GM took hands on control. (Programming dialog trees and puzzle-stuff to make single player full-videogame modules was a bit more complicated.)
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Back in 2002, there was Neverwinter Nights, which was specifically build as a videogame in which you can slap together environments quickly and give one player control over all the NPCs and monsters and to spawn in all kinds of stuff on the go.
The game was ugly as sin and gives you eye cancer, but it did work pretty well if the GM took hands on control. (Programming dialog trees and puzzle-stuff to make single player full-videogame modules was a bit more complicated.)
Yeah, I got sucked into building a whole bunch of 3/4-view props and objects by some hobbyists with promises of great rewards. They were building like the whole Forgotten Realms or something in NW. I can't remember who ghosted who first.
 

robertsconley

*eyeroll*
Thanks for the heads. Up. Someday I'll learn how to make "D&D the video game" work on VTT.

I know that may sounds disparaging, but I don't mean to knock it. It was always the dream to one day have something like that.
Note I am not saying everybody should be using this. Just providing the info to explain what it actually entails.

To use any map in a VTT is trival with fog of war. Just load the map, make it big enough to see, enable fog of war, and just expose what the players wind up see. The exposing part is just a matter of use in a tool to draw a square or a shape and anything inside will be made visible.

To use dynamic lighting is like using dwarven forge during a face to face session. It not trivial to use it is not complex. Like setting up dwarven forge takes time to prepare.

1664371146061.png
I had to draw the purple lines to setup the dynamic lighting. The red line are separate lines I can remove to represent opening doors. It took me a 1/2 hour to setup the entire map.
1664371430077.png

What I see during play
1664371499482.png

What the players see during play
1664371560010.png

What another player not carrying a torch would see.
1664371747869.png\
Hope this is informative.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I'm a little bit on team Squeen here. Try to avoid VTT as long as you can, because there's no turning back after. I've got boxes of neglected minis gathering dust. Our old battle-mat was only used for climactic encounters; the rest limited to theater of the mind, or quick diagrams on graph paper for clarification. Now we use Roll20 even when we play in person! Which is another thing; it's easier for friends to just not turn up and phone it in from home. Half the game was hanging out, now I'm DMing to a dude who's very obviously got 3 Reddit (I hope 😬 ) Tabs open and is barely listening when it's not their turn.

No more mapping shenanigans at either end of the D&D spectrum either. (no more correcting the players' interpretation of your descriptions/just doing it yourself. Or conversely, leaving the whole party in the dark if they refuse to transcribe the map (unless you want to re-fog-of-war the VTT as you go I guess?)). No more line of sight arguments. No more 'you're too far away to do that'. Everything is wysiwyg. It kills the imagination and some of the more imaginative approaches to encounters and leads to a video-gamey, dungeon-clearing style of play.

The onus of prep is easily doubled or tripled. Finding decent tokens is difficult (moreso now A THOUSANDFOLD CURSES AND CANCER-AIDS UPON THE FOUL MURDERER OF THE TROVE!!!) Robert made it seem a wiz to drop in a map, but it is very much not unless you size and crop it ahead of time. I also call bullshit (!) on setting up the lighting for an entire dungeon in 30 min. unless that process has somehow become automated since last I looked. Tracing lines is brutal around all but the most linear of geometry. And, prickass players expect gorgeous coloured maps like they're seeing in premade map-packs or top-of-the-line published adventures.

On the upside; once you're done, all the monsters are on the map (including randos over to the side) which can make dynamic combat easier. It's a lot easier to start moving groups in neighbouring rooms as a response to loud combats. It's also easy to rearrange/restock things if the PC's run away to rest/hide. I guess I tried to frame it as a bad thing above, but it really does cut back on rules disputes if everyone can see where everything is during a fight as well. Similarly, I complained about the asshat with 14 tabs open, but on the other hand, at least he showed up to the game? Absenteeism goes way down when you can almost always attend.

All in all, it becomes a crutch. And sometimes I miss the good old days sitting around the table; but hell, I'm on the other side of the world and half the guys live on the other side of town from each other now. There's no going back.
 

robertsconley

*eyeroll*
I I also call bullshit (!) on setting up the lighting for an entire dungeon in 30 min.
True I had a lot practice going back to the 90s when I got a hold of a full size CAD Drawing tablet (absolute positioning) and traced out some of my Judges Guild Map into an old version of AutoCAD running under WIndows 3.1.

The trick is not using free hand instead you use this tool.

1664383708059.png

The tracing process is a matter of click click click click just outside of the walls. When you are done with a segment you right click and you are done.

1664383815513.png

Curves are handled by using more clicks.
1664383964474.png
If your dungeon consist mostly of straight lines the amount of clicks you need to draw can be quite few.

The process I use is that I draw the outermost perimeter of the dungeon first. Then followed by any interior cutouts. Finally winding up with interior walls. Doing it this way minimize amount of clicks I need to make.

Again this is NOT trivial work but not a overbearing mindnumbing task that many make it out to be. I own and use Dwarven Forge and overall to incorporate this into you prep is about the same amount work.

The root of the problem is that to make this work for the causal user, folks need to know the right tools to use. Most I seen go for the freehand tool in an effort to follow curves more precisely. This is an exercise in frustration if you only have a mouse like most folks. It is an exercise in frustration for somebody like me who is adept at using illustration software.

I figured this out on my own because of using Judges Guild's Wilderlands. Sure I came up with a lot of my own stuff. But from time to time I needed to get a copy of a original JG map into my computer. Then somehow turn it into a vector image so I can scale up and down as needed. So I learned to put the scanned image on the bottommost layer. The figuring out how trace it fast enough without it consuming all the hobby time I have. The trick was what most software called a Bezier tool. Which allows you draw straight lines and curves. And you do this by the click, click, click method except I also had the option of making a curve by holding down the mouse button after the click and draggin.

I don't have that in Roll 20 so I just do more frequent clicks. Also you don't have to be as precise I needed to be for my MW Maps because it hard to see the line segments of a curved wall when dynamic lighting is used.

Finally there are plenty who think Dwarven Forge and even dry erase battlemats as bullshit. And that OK. Whatever level of involvement folks like for face to face can transfer over to VTTs. For campaigns that are mainly theater of the mind and a few handouts all you are really using are the dice rolls and showing images as handout if needed. For campaigns that are mainly dry erase battlemats, I recommend getting an inexpensive drawing table ($30 to $50), and use the freehand tool the same way you use dry erase pens. Then there are maps and fog of war. If you need to crop then go with Paint.NET it free and does the job. Finally there is above.
 

robertsconley

*eyeroll*
Now we use Roll20 even when we play in person! Which is another thing; it's easier for friends to just not turn up and phone it in from home. Half the game was hanging out, now I'm DMing to a dude who's very obviously got 3 Reddit (I hope 😬 ) Tabs open and is barely listening when it's not their turn.
Is it open on your phones or something?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
View attachment 1298
I had to draw the purple lines to setup the dynamic lighting. The red line are separate lines I can remove to represent opening doors. It took me a 1/2 hour to setup the entire map.
Assuming you have the same capabilities with Roll20 as I have with MapTool, it can save time to (1) block the whole area as vision-blocking (that is, the whole area is purple); (2) delete the vision-blocking purple area from rooms and corridors; (3) draw any vision blocking lines that were erased in step 2. Since drawing lines is fiddly, this means you only have to draw lines for internal walls, not external walls.

I think VBL lines are straight because there is a ton of math involved in calculating what is visible, and doing that for curves would likely increase the calculations exponentially.

No more mapping shenanigans at either end of the D&D spectrum either. (no more correcting the players' interpretation of your descriptions/just doing it yourself. Or conversely, leaving the whole party in the dark if they refuse to transcribe the map (unless you want to re-fog-of-war the VTT as you go I guess?)). No more line of sight arguments. No more 'you're too far away to do that'. Everything is wysiwyg. It kills the imagination and some of the more imaginative approaches to encounters and leads to a video-gamey, dungeon-clearing style of play.

The onus of prep is easily doubled or tripled. Finding decent tokens is difficult (moreso now A THOUSANDFOLD CURSES AND CANCER-AIDS UPON THE FOUL MURDERER OF THE TROVE!!!) Robert made it seem a wiz to drop in a map, but it is very much not unless you size and crop it ahead of time. I also call bullshit (!) on setting up the lighting for an entire dungeon in 30 min. unless that process has somehow become automated since last I looked. Tracing lines is brutal around all but the most linear of geometry. And, prickass players expect gorgeous coloured maps like they're seeing in premade map-packs or top-of-the-line published adventures.

On the upside; once you're done, all the monsters are on the map (including randos over to the side) which can make dynamic combat easier. It's a lot easier to start moving groups in neighbouring rooms as a response to loud combats. It's also easy to rearrange/restock things if the PC's run away to rest/hide. I guess I tried to frame it as a bad thing above, but it really does cut back on rules disputes if everyone can see where everything is during a fight as well. Similarly, I complained about the asshat with 14 tabs open, but on the other hand, at least he showed up to the game? Absenteeism goes way down when you can almost always attend.

All in all, it becomes a crutch. And sometimes I miss the good old days sitting around the table; but hell, I'm on the other side of the world and half the guys live on the other side of town from each other now. There's no going back.
Yeah, you-don't-know-you-have-been-teleported style traps like in B1 are difficult to pull off if they require a rotation of the map, without making a whole 'nother map. So are passages that pass underneath each other on the same level; I either have to put them on different maps, or ensure that they are passages of the same width and at right angles to each other, and make a special token with VBL "walls" on two parallel edges, which I can rotate depending on which direction they are coming from.

I do restore the fog of war if they aren't mapping.

I have a bunch of blank, numbered tokens for when I am in a rush and don't have time to find a match. Google image searches are my friend, and MapTool has a good separate tool for making tokens easily, so this usually isn't an issue. The slow part for me is programming the token macros, as I am a bit perfectionist about making them run smoothly in play.

Having the whole dungeon level on the VTT makes order of battle very easy. It is easy to see who is likely to hear melee, and where monsters will retreat to or summon reinforcements from. Battles become very dynamic if you have multiple exits, and the melee can spill into corridors and the party has to consider cutting of lines of retreat/reinforcements.

I do sometimes play without a VTT, but I don't like it as much. I find VTTs add more than they subtract.

Considering the complexity of your maps I don't doubt that they take a while to set up dynamic lighting. Also, I no longer make gorgeous maps; if the players want to play more often they can suck it up and deal with plain, representative maps. Which I have come to prefer anyway, as the set dressing seemed to be distracting and increase players' tendency to obsess over trivia. Like, literal pixel-bitching.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Is it open on your phones or something?
nono. That would cost money, heh. Just a variation of the 'phoning it in' idiom. As in, 'the actor phoned in his performance from his chateau in Southern France'.

Gotta admit, I'm an artist and I still hate dicking around interminably with the polygon-line tool. In ALL software. Someday I will legitimize the purchase of my very own Cintiq (link may be localized) to myself. Someday...
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
16" with 4K resolution sounds more like it! I guess when you can zoom in, maybe it matters less. Thanks.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
For anyone who is interested, CBC Radio just did a long segment on D&D and religion.
It was interesting, but I'll admit I don't agree much with the fella's world views about religion...or acting out fantasy. He's scholarly, but ultimately (despite being an academic studying religion), very dismissive of religion---at his core, a non-believer.

On the other hand, he is an avid D&D player, and totally dismissive of the satanic-panic criticisms. But let's be honest, who isn't these days?--it's mainly brought up to be used as a veiled attack on religion. But mainly it's the whole "my Paladin wouldn't put up with how my boss is treating me" (always goes hand-in-hand with that class!) that rubs me the wrong way, as usual. I guess ultimately I've always been a bit disgusted and frightened by people playing out their will-to-power over the world via fantasy games. Pride is the cardinal sin (if you believe in such things)---why indulge it? In fact, he does at some point in the interview argue in favor of such indulgences as a "release mechanism", while using the usual academic's mechanic of "so-and-so suggests that..." to cloak his own opinions.

D&D was never about that for me, nor those I played with.

...or, if it was, we were colossally inept in the execution! :p

Probably the best bit was learning about Tolkien's belief that when all seems lost, salvation arrives in an unexpected way. "The Eagles!"
 
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Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
It was interesting, but I'll admit I don't agree much with the fella's world views about religion...or acting out fantasy. He's scholarly, but ultimately (despite being an academic studying religion), very dismissive of religion---at his core, a non-believer.

On the other hand, he is an avid D&D player, and totally dismissive of the satanic-panic criticisms. But let's be honest, who isn't these days?--it's mainly brought up to be used as a veiled attack on religion. But mainly it's the whole "my Paladin wouldn't put up with how my boss is treating me" (always goes hand-in-hand with that class!) that rubs me the wrong way, as usual. I guess ultimately I've always been a bit disgusted and frightened by people playing out their will-to-power over the world via fantasy games. Pride is the cardinal sin (if you believe in such things)---why indulge it? In fact, he does at some point in the interview argue in favor of such indulgences as a "release mechanism", while using the usual academic's mechanic of "so-and-so suggests that..." to cloak his own opinions.

D&D was never about that for me, nor those I played with.

...or, if it was, we were colossally inept in the execution! :p

Probably the best bit was learning about Tolkien's belief that when all seems lost, salvation arrives in an unexpected way. "The Eagles!"
I don't get much fussed about what people want to get out of the game. I mean, there are a lot of reasons people profess to play sports as well, including a perception that it builds "character". leadership skills, or confidence, and a certain amount of vanity can get wrapped up in it (which is a pretty dominant American high school trope, I would say).

If some kid can learn not to be a doormat by trying it out first in an RPG, more power to him. Fake it until you make it, as they say.
 
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