Book Fucking Talk

[PrinceofNothing]

As a more internationally known example, Ian Watson's WH40K novels are readable beyond the level of a splatbook, while the other 40K novels are largely irredeemable trash.

I like Inquisitor's War as much as the next guy but I don't find it supercedes the level of quality to be found in Abnett's Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies, both solid pulp entertainment (and both concerning the Inquisition, which makes for more storytelling possibilities). Also who can forget the inimitable contributions of Barrington J. Bayley to the Warhammer 40k canon. Wrath of the Archeosaurs anyone?

I'd argue 40k does better then most genre fiction because the universe has more possibilities and potential for different storylines and an author's personal touch.

Nothing, however, will save the Forgotten Realms. It is unsuitable as a basis for good fiction, and only lovable hacks like Salvatore will ever touch it. So your point may stand here.

I was beginning to muster all the dark forces at my command to call down upon you retribution unimaginable but I am mollified by this additional qualification. Forgotten Realms is almost uniquely milktoast and lame...but I am always interested in why something sucks and what makes it suck. Salvatore did better with his own DnD campaign book series (or so one would assume), of which I must now admit I have in fact read the Highwayman and its sequels.


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[bryce0lynch]

I needed 4 new carbon monoxide detectors so I picked up some books also. Prince #1 ordered, as is Heroes, Death wins a Goldfish, the White People, and Red Storm Rising.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Just finished the Trial by Franz Kafka. I am going to Canadia on Saturday for a Two Week vacation. What books do I bring?

A) Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.
B) Giant impractical Thomas Covenant Hardcover
C) Ghormenghast Omnibus
D) The 12 Rules for Life Jordan Peterson hardcover that my friend naively gave me that will likely get me stopped at the airport but that I desperately need to read for a spicy Kiel Chenier adventure review.
E) Go bookless and talk to people like a non-autism just drink you sissy
F) Metro 2033 - 2034
G) Tanith Lee Lionwolf trilogy

 

[Slick]

I'd go with F) if only because I'm reading Roadside Picnic by the Strugatsky brothers at the moment and I'm curious what the similarities are, being that both are bleak Russian sci-fi novels that have been adapted into videogames in one way or another.

Speaking of Roadside Picnic, I've not yet finished it but I'm already smitten. The setup heavily invokes oldschool D&D: The Zone adheres almost perfectly to the idea of the Mythic Underworld (though not an "underworld" in the literal sense), navigated by the characters though what is essentially a modern version of ten foot pole-prodding in order to recover what could be described as magic items.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Speaking of Roadside Picnic, I've not yet finished it but I'm already smitten. The setup heavily invokes oldschool D&D: The Zone adheres almost perfectly to the idea of the Mythic Underworld (though not an "underworld" in the literal sense), navigated by the characters though what is essentially a modern version of ten foot pole-prodding in order to recover what could be described as magic items.

Great book and dead on for pinning it as a sci-fi DnD novel. Stalkers are kind of like murderhobo's, including the criminal tendencies and the completely unknown nature of the threats and the bizarre loot really hammers home the alien nature of the Zone.

 

[bryce0lynch]

Stalker is my second favorite fps series.

 

[Ola J]

What is your favourite fps-series?

Great thread, btw. Don't have much to ad atm, but I can mention that I recently tried reading some early Moorcock (the first few Elric stories) and while they are fairly fun they seem to quickly become repetetive. I don't know how many more of them I'll read, after the three I've read so far.

 

[Malrex]

I'll be honest...I've been struggling through Vance--Dying Earth. There is some cool imagery, but I had to put it down...(for a few months). Anyone read Scott Lynch--The Lies of Locke Lamora? After the first 100 pages or so, I really started to enjoy it, second book wasn't bad...third book I didn't finish cause it got sorta boring...

 

[Gus L.]

I've read the Locke Lamore stuff - it's fun enough to read - feels a bit like someone's FATE game at times, but had enough to amuse me.

For good fantasy - gad I can't say I've really read anything stellar. The best thing I read recently was "The Sad tale of the Brother's Grossbart" by Jesse Burlington which was fun and different enough.

 

[bryce0lynch]

I always thought Lovecraft had some ideas but they came across hamhanded. Tonight I read The White People by Machen. I can see now, fully, what live raft was trying to do. The language and imagery is magnificent.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Whew I am back from vacation guys!

I'll be honest...I've been struggling through Vance--Dying Earth. There is some cool imagery, but I had to put it down...(for a few months). Anyone read Scott Lynch--The Lies of Locke Lamora? After the first 100 pages or so, I really started to enjoy it, second book wasn't bad...third book I didn't finish cause it got sorta boring..

Darn it. Did you go for the first dying earth novel or the later Cugel stories? I think the original can be a bit slow at times but the second and third book had me sniggernig throughout. I liked Lies of Locke Lamora as a sort of fantasy reinassance Ocean's 11 but after I had finished the first book I found I was uninterested in what happened next to the characters.

Reads and findings:

Mistborn (Brandon Sanderson) - Surprisingly decent first entry of Sanderson's doorstopper Lotr clone, though the end result ends up feeling more like a Shonen Anime then anything Tolkien ever produced. The protagonists are a plucky band of metal-wizards seeking to free a post-apocalyptic world from the tyranny of the nefarious Lord Ruler. Sanderson's mormon background is telling and lends the work an almost childlike naivete that clashes somewhat with the depictions of graphic violence. Other weakpoints include 21st century american slang in a fantasy novel, a plethora of board meetings to run an underground rebellion that slow down the story and several groan-worthy zingers. Strong points include some heart (hope and trust versus cynicism is a central theme driving the story), a beautifully intricate magic system worthy of its own rpg (already there), jaw-dropping action scenes and good use of unexpected plot twists to heighten the tension. Its a little watered down but its not cynical, thank God. I will be reading the next one. Recommended if you have a long breath (fucking 600+ pages?).

Ensign Flandry (Poul Anderson) - Poul Anderson is one of those authors that I like almost everything I read from but that I tend to forget, with the exception of the Broken Sword, which is a terrific Viking-themed fantasy saga (I think it might be the only one?). Cold War Politics in Space! The decadent terran Empire battles the upstart crocodile samurai alien empire in a war by proxy on some forlorn border world. Fish men against cat boobs. Into this mix is thrust Dominic Flandry, dashing space ensign. The flatness of Flandry aside, Ensign Flandry is a rewarding space romp that reminds one that at one time 224 pages was enough to put down an entire universe full of possibilities, espionage, intrigue, space combat (I think we might be witnessing the inspiration for the Spike Drive in SWN), blaster fights and interventionist policies. Anderson tends to make both his heroes and villains have an understandable (if not always reasonable) point of view. Its nice to see a passivist villain for once, showcasing that in some cases, naive idealism can be just as deadly as warmongering xenophobia.

John Dies at the End (David Wong) - Thoroughly joyless experience that I was forced to give up before finishing the first chapter for fear of swearing off reading altogether. Picture an endless carousel of family guy stewey jokes, read by the character Phoebe from Friends. Wong informs us that if it had not been for this book deal, he would still be an alcoholic, but reading his anti-comedy kind of makes you wish he'd stuck with drinking. Returned it to the thrift shop, where it will hopefully serve to provide warmth or nourishment to one of Toronto's many homeless persons.

All You Need is Kill (Hiroshi Sakurazaka) - Light Novel that inspired one of my favourite movies of all time, Edge of Tomorrow. If you are a fan of the movie it might be worth your time, but the description Light Novel is apt, there is just not that much here. The novel is plagued by various anime-isms, autism and impenetrable exposition but delivers a healthy shot of adrenaline nevertheless, and the extra background behind the alien Mimics is welcome. The ending is surprisingly brutal, but then again, this is Japan. Entertaining but ultimately unimpactful.

Agricola/Germania [Penguin classics edition] (Tacitus) - Easily my favorite read of the holidays. The famous roman historian describes the life and career of his father-in-law, the governor of Britannia and the customs and beliefs of the German Tribes. Short, packed full of historical detail, bizarre customs and written in clear, concise, masculine prose and wry wit. Great, riveting stuff.

An Evil Guest (Gene Wolfe) - Gene Wolfe doing his best Neil Gaiman impression? I don't even know where to start with this one. A novel nominally set in the future but written in the style of a 50s pulp novel about a broadway starlet falling in love with a wealthy but sinister man with lovecraftian/fantasy elements slowly being introduced about halfway through? As always with Wolfe, there are multiple layers hinted at throughout the story that I frankly couldn't tease out in my first readthrough. The cheesy dialog and frequent plot twists kept me interested enough and I finished the novel pretty quickly, but in the end I can't help but wonder what it all meant. If you are a fan of Gene Wolfe, probably worth it, if not, best skip this one and try something normal first. Rereading will probably be mandatory for even partial comprehension.

Beowulf (Michael Alexander) - Classic poem about Beowulf, Warrior of the Geats and his destruction of the creature Grendel and his Mother at the behest of Hrothgar of the Scyldings only to fall to a mighty dragon fifty years later. Slower then the Epic of Gilgamesh, there is still some undoubtedly stirring imagery, dash-daring heroism and the backdrop of blood-feuding clans, gold-covered halls, mead and mention of ante-deluvian giants is neat. The confrontation with Grendel's mother is the highlight. The wound Wyglaf deals to the Dragon so his fire does not consume Beowulf makes me wonder whether the hit point based breath weapon damage for dragons originated here. Surely not?

The Screwtape letters (C.S. Lewis) - My first foray into Christian Theology, based on a recommendation, C.S. Lewis of Narnia fame warns of the designs of devils and how virtue can be turned to sin, using as a medium the exchange of letters between the Devil Wormwood and his uncle Screwtape. Witty, intelligent and emminently sensible, the moral pitfalls are mostly recognizable even if the reader is unlikely to subscribe to a belief in spirits. You probably have a pretty good idea whether or not this book is for you.

Time to fucking sleep. Good to be back guys.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

I have been trying to follow up on my beloved Black Company by reading other Glen Cook material. The story so far:

The Tyranny of the Night - Interesting premise (humanity finally learns how to kill the shadowy demons of the night that have... well... tyrannized them for so long) utterly ruined by annoying infodumps every second paragraph about past events and characters I have never heard of, don't seem relevant and whose names I forget instantaneously. The complete opposite of the Black Company where everyone had a really fucking memorable name. (Who could ever forget The Limper?). It's exactly like the "failed novelist syndrome" that Bryce laments in so many modules, except it comes from a non-failed novelist... Otherwise, the premise "The Crusades in fantasy drag" grates on me as I try to piece together which character is a stand-in for which historical figure, what "fantasy France" is going to do next, etc etc. Binned it after two attempts to crack the 30-page mark, which I almost never do with books.

The Tower of Fear - What is Cook's deal with "Fantasy Middle East" settings? Did I miss a memo somewhere? This one seems to lean in the direction of Tyranny, but 30 pages in it's far more interesting. It begins in an occupied city after the sorceror-priest-king has been killed, which is a great start. Very little infodumping, although it does switch between various characters' perspectives far too rapidly. Anyway it's enough for me to keep reading, and I include this only for contrast - DON'T bother with Tyranny whatever you do! Serious swing and a miss on Cook's part.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Hah, more Book Fucking Talk!

The Illustrated Man by Ray Bradbury - GREAT short story science fiction collection by the author of Fahrenheit 451 himself. Each tale is strongly reminiscent of an episode of the Twilight Zone, complete with rocket ships, cigarettes, fifties dialog and horrific twist endings. The stories are more about exploring concepts or the human condition then they are about futuristic speculation, a plus in this case. Two people have travelled back in time to escape the totalitarian hellscape of tomorrow. Space cadets suffer the perpetual rainstorms of the jungle-planet Venus, seeking shelter. The Last day on earth takes place, how do people deal with it. A man seeks to save his son from the violence of some hellish playground. Useless as fodder for space games, these are stories of sober reflection on man's follies, examinations of man's struggle against adversity and his coping with death. Highly recommended.

The Ouroboros Wave by Jyouji Hayashi - Another entry from the Kaikasoru imprint of japanese sf/f. A number of loosely-connected short-stories focused about the black hole Kali, the ring station Ouroboros meant to harness its power, the autistic commie scrum-teams of the AADD that seek to unravel the mysteries of the universe and the backwards Terran capitalists that occasionally hinder them. The hard sf elements are welcome but render the work a little cold, something not helped by the obtuse nature of many of the characters. I suspect the translation has not done the work any favors. The curse of hard sf is that the concepts are often vastly more interesting then the characters, and The Wave Ouroboros is no exception. For a fan of real hard science fiction it might have some appeal but the utopian star-trek like vision of loosely organized non-hierarchical teams of specialists transcending human concepts like profit and exploring the universe in the name of Darwin lost its credibility about two decades ago, making the work feel paradoxically dated despite its cutting edge science.

Lyonesse by Jack Vance - Easily my favorite, Lyonesse is everything Game of Thrones tries to be but better. Vance's whimsical prose explodes from the pages and transports you to a faraway land. Taking place on a fictional island next to england two generations before King Arthur, Lyonesse is a complex multi-character epic involving the designs of the power-hungry king Casmir, the Princess Suldrun, the Prince Aillas, the cruel Duke Faude Carfilliot, the Magicians Tamurello and Shimrod and all manner of wonderful colourful characters. Outrageously funny or heartrendingly tragic, Lyonesse delivers an injection of Faery-tale goodness of the purest kind. Brimming with Ogres, riddles, marriages, betrayals, battles, ruses, trolls, faeries, curses, the terrifying Ska and objects of sorcery, Lyonesse holds the rare distinction of being the best book of a brilliant writer.

As to Gus's earlier gripe about lazy viking cultures, I would put forth the Ska as an example of a culture that is clearly based on viking myth but is not merely a derivation thereof. Any takers?

I have been trying to follow up on my beloved Black Company by reading other Glen Cook material. The story so far:

Keep em coming! Glen Cook is on my list but besides the Black Company I have found few people that are familiar with his other works. I am curious about them.

 

[Melan]

I have recently been getting into Lyonesse again (very slowly), and it also struck me how much similarity it bears to Game of Thrones. Feuding mini-kingdoms, treachery, coldly killing off sympathetic PoV characters, "I Can't Believe It Is Not Britain", etc.

(Caveat, I haven't seen a single episode of GoT or read any of the books, so all this is through pop cultural osmosis.)

 

[PrinceofNothing]

I have recently been getting into Lyonesse again (very slowly), and it also struck me how much similarity it bears to Game of Thrones. Feuding mini-kingdoms, treachery, coldly killing off sympathetic PoV characters, "I Can't Believe It Is Not Britain", etc.

I'm 100 pages into the second part.

I'd say the main differences, other then the pseudo-historical setting (The Elder Isles actually supposed to be the lands King Arthur hailed from*), are the occasional injections of Vancian whimsey or ironic drollery as supposed to the gruff gallows humor and poop jokes of Westeros and the welcome injection of high fantasy in Lyonesse. There is an element of romance and fairy tale in Lyonesse that Game of Thrones deliberately sets out to subvert, making the latter feel banal or pointless at times. Important characters die in Lyonesse but the motive of "Valar Morgulis" is much less present on the Elder Isles.

Descriptions of an inn being "fit only for Celts and Lepers" can't help but bring a smile to my face.

I've read all the Game of Thrones novels and consider them decent fantasy epics, declining in quality as the series goes on. The use of death fake-outs becomes predictable, the story becomes bogged down in a morass of tangents, the writing has always been ho-hum and some characters get grating. One cannot help but admire the dedication, depth and versimilitude of the world building however, eclipsed only by the likes of Dune, Lord of the Rings, Vance's own Lyonesse or Bakker's the Prince of Nothing series.

The show is excellent for the first five seasons before steeply declining into stupid hollywood cliches and lobotomized writing. While the production value is still amazing, the drop in quality is so steep as to be unbridgeable for one of my delicate sensibilities.

* Included for other gentle readers, presumably the great Melan is cognizant of the setting of the tale he is slowly absorbing.

 

[Melan]

Figures. I avoided GoT precisely because I got sick of grimdark in the late 1990s, when it was all the rage in Hungarian fantasy in a very monotonous way, and never looked back. Much like Moorcock's work, the critique of "escapist" and "immature" high fantasy often ends up with a barren, emotionally stunted landscape where the deconstruction is not any better than the deconstructed. Once again, this is prejudice - I haven't given GoT a fair try - but the shoe seems to fit, at least where the show is concerned.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Figures. I avoided GoT precisely because I got sick of grimdark in the late 1990s, when it was all the rage in Hungarian fantasy in a very monotonous way, and never looked back. Much like Moorcock's work, the critique of "escapist" and "immature" high fantasy often ends up with a barren, emotionally stunted landscape where the deconstruction is not any better than the deconstructed. Once again, this is prejudice - I haven't given GoT a fair try - but the shoe seems to fit, at least where the show is concerned.

I think the description of Moorcock as "emotionally stunted" is dead on (I'd lump in Earthsea with that accusation too) but his Young Kingdoms are so colorful and bizarre and Moorcock's palette is so broad I can't bring myself to sentence him to the gallows entirely, he did too much awesome stuff. The first Hawkmoons, the first Elrics, Corum, Dancers at the End of Time. I will say Moorcock is an author that gets progressively worse as he attempts more serious "literary" writing. The last three Hawkmoon novels were almost comical in their portrayal of the ultimate triumph of 'reason' over 'fear' (a message so juvenile it was lampooned in Donny Darko), the Revenge of the Rose was a snorefest and Blood was well neigh unreadable.

I've always had a fondness for Grimdark because of my deep and abiding love for Warhammer 40k and the current Grimdark trend seems to produce modern fantasy novels that are at least somewhat readable (Barker's Princeofnothing series and the Witcher novels were very good), compared to the endless series of Tolkien Clones, gender inversion fantasy and patrick fucking rothfuss. I think its more a question of nuance and intent then it is about the form itself.

That being said, the first few seasons of Game of Thrones are breathtakingly good; characters, costumes, acting, direction, special effects. Everything comes together to produce an utterly engaging spectacle that leaves you perched on the edge of your seat and always wanting more. The dumbness doesn't begin to set in until after that, and the fifth season still has what is perhaps the best finale of the whole series.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

patrick fucking rothfuss.

My dad sent me those to read... how bad is it?

 

[Melan]

Make no mistake, I love Warhammer - but Warhammer is colourful! At its best, it is full of grotesque life and gallows humour (the rules on treating insanity are a hoot, and all the character careers are wonderful), and it is not afraid to be Blackadder before getting back to the "Chaos never sleeps" business. Of course, that's the high point of a decades-spanning product line... but then so are the TSR classics.

I have also enjoyed my Moorcock, and War Hound remains one of my favourite fantasy novels. A lot of his other books are carbon copies of each other - I came fairly late to Hawkmoon, and based on previous Eternal Champion novels, found it laughably predictable - here is your decadent empire, here is your cheeky companion, and here is your distant love interest, at the same exact part of the story as every other Eternal Champion story. I stopped reading him there and then.

 

[Palindromedary]

My dad sent me those to read... how bad is it?

Essentially, he has a decent prose sense, but is also very much in love with his own words. He's the sort of guy who would really benefit from a strong editor.

The first book is the better one, and I enjoyed it well enough, (though I didn't find it the worldchanger that so many did when it first came out). All the same, I've always appreciated this review:

The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss and The Children of Húrin by J.R.R. Tolkien

Here are two titles for booksellers to shelve under Fantasy. Both follow the adventures of an essentially good though morally (slightly) complicated hero around a medievalised imaginary world. Both…

strangehorizons.com

In particular, the reviewer's note that modern fantasists write with a dreary modernism was particularly striking (also pointed out by Ursula K Le Guin in her late 70s essay, "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie").