A.I. Use, statements, opinions, transparency, a story?, ramblings....

Malrex

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Edit:
I posted something, hoping to spark discussion, but decided to take it down. The tone here feels different from what it used to, less about exchanging ideas and more about assumptions and personal digs. It’s not aimed directly at me, but it’s disappointing that people who share a love for the same hobby can’t seem to get along as they once did. I miss the days of deep discussions on adventure design and working together to make adventures better.


Take care, all. The Merciless Merchants will likely be charting a different course in the near future, leaning into the ‘red-headed stepchild’ label the OSR has given 2nd edition, and doubling down on our own path and enjoyment.
 
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Malrex said:
Edit:
I posted something, hoping to spark discussion, but decided to take it down. The tone here feels different from what it used to, less about exchanging ideas and more about assumptions and personal digs. It’s not aimed directly at me, but it’s disappointing that people who share a love for the same hobby can’t seem to get along as they once did. I miss the days of deep discussions on adventure design and working together to make adventures better.


Take care, all. The Merciless Merchants will likely be charting a different course in the near future, leaning into the ‘red-headed stepchild’ label the OSR has given 2nd edition, and doubling down on our own path and enjoyment.
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Understood, Malrex. I'm sorry if anything I said contributed to your decision.
 
I think the title of this thread is provocative and worth discussing. There's been a lot of intolerance and shit-talk about AI recently in the Tenfoot comments and very little voice of moderation. I can see how creators would be terrified to be branded as a user of AI. But it really needs to be discussed. I'm looking for advice on how to talk to an LLM about designing a sewer system for a miles-wide megalopolis. Something, as a college-educated artist, I'm very much not qualified to do myself. But, I'm scared that if my work sees the light of day sometime in the future, it will be dismissed as the work of a generative AI. So I'm not getting the help I need! I don't think I'm alone in being silent in the face of the baying mob of machine haters. Honestly though, wasn't the OSR built on nested procedural charts and scripted generators?

There's got to be some distinction between letting Chat write your shovelware for you, and using AI to provide you with some actually representational visual aids instead of shitty creative commons art, or getting help generating massive things like city maps, or population data, or large areas of empty wilderness, etc.

A lot of the hate I'm reading is sounding more like fear...
 
The1True said:
I think the title of this thread is provocative and worth discussing. There's been a lot of intolerance and shit-talk about AI recently in the Tenfoot comments and very little voice of moderation. I can see how creators would be terrified to be branded as a user of AI. But it really needs to be discussed. I'm looking for advice on how to talk to an LLM about designing a sewer system for a miles-wide megalopolis. Something, as a college-educated artist, I'm very much not qualified to do myself. But, I'm scared that if my work sees the light of day sometime in the future, it will be dismissed as the work of a generative AI. So I'm not getting the help I need! I don't think I'm alone in being silent in the face of the baying mob of machine haters. Honestly though, wasn't the OSR built on nested procedural charts and scripted generators?

There's got to be some distinction between letting Chat write your shovelware for you, and using AI to provide you with some actually representational visual aids instead of shitty creative commons art, or getting help generating massive things like city maps, or population data, or large areas of empty wilderness, etc.

A lot of the hate I'm reading is sounding more like fear...
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I think the answer, if you have to check the "Includes AI Content" box, is to describe what you are using AI for in the module description. Every time I see that phrase on DriveThru, I look at the product description, and I think there was only once when it was broken down like that. I don't think saying, "I don't know what a sewer system should look like so I asked AI to design the layout," is going to be off-putting to anyone except trolls and IV.

Plus I assume, given your skills and education, you won't be using AI art on your front cover. If someone's first glimpse of a product is obviously not AI art, and if the writing in the preview is obviously not AI writing, they likely won't be mentally putting it in the "AI Slop" category.
 
Beoric said:
I don't think saying, "I don't know what a sewer system should look like so I asked AI to design the layout," is going to be off-putting to anyone except trolls and IV.
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Yep. Using AI for research is 100% perfectly fine - nobody is going to attack you for that (unless the AI is literally giving you wrong answers, then they'll just think you're an idiot).

If you are reading what AI is writing, and then using it to write your own words, there is no foul there. It's like using Wikipedia for research at that point; nobody's going to ding a module author for looking stuff up on Wikipedia. AI just happens to do the research much faster because it has pre-sifted through all those Wikipedia articles (plus a gazillion other sources), and is saving you some serious reading time by identifying all the pertinent stuff.

I think the bigger divide is AI art. I mean, we all agree that having an AI writing your adventure is bad. But outsourcing the art? Ehh... not such an egregious thing, in my mind. But then I totally get why folk would say it is.
 
DangerousPuhson said:
I think the bigger divide is AI art. I mean, we all agree that having an AI writing your adventure is bad. But outsourcing the art? Ehh... not such an egregious thing, in my mind. But then I totally get why folk would say it is.
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With (a) the quality of AI tools most module designers seem to be using for art (meaning that it is obviously AI generated), and (b) the frequency with which that art is paired with AI generated slop adventures, I think it is going to rapidly become the case that an AI cover will create a presumption that the module will be low quality. Eventually, cover that does not appear to be AI generated may become a mark of quality.
 
Ah yes, like that famous expression: "always judge a book by its cover"...

I thought we were all fretting about AI-generated writing, not the art? They may go hand-in-hand sometimes, but it's 100x easier to write text than it is to create art (in the technical sense), so it would follow that one is far more egregious an offence than the other. That is to say, there's loads of perfectly fine modules out there with AI art, but nearly everything written by AI has been trash, which is the real problem. Anyone can write, but not everyone can make art. You can't do a quick churn of garbage using just art; the text still needs to be written, and that's where all the thought, care, and effort goes (which is what buyers are paying for).

I'll expand:
There are many beloved modules with good writing and good art.
There are many beloved modules with good writing and no art.
There are many beloved modules with good writing and AI art.
There are many hated modules with bad writing and good art.
There are many hated modules with bad writing and no art.
There are many hated modules with bad writing and AI art.

Do we see the pattern here? Writing is central, art is supplemental.
 
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DangerousPuhson said:
I think the bigger divide is AI art. I mean, we all agree that having an AI writing your adventure is bad. But outsourcing the art? Ehh... not such an egregious thing, in my mind. But then I totally get why folk would say it is.
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Also, original art is fantastically expensive for something that is not likely to make the creator much money. Definitely if you're charging me more than $5-10 though, I expect original artwork.

Beoric said:
I think it is going to rapidly become the case that an AI cover will create a presumption that the module will be low quality.
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I think this is a fair assessment. At the very least there's going to be an uphill battle for credibility. Some well known creator put out a monster heartbreaker recently which sounded pretty cool in reviews. The cover had an obviously AI generated fantasy queen on a thrown, I think? Sorry guys can't think of the title. We definitely discussed it here though 🤷‍♂️ . The cover wasn't a deal breaker, but without the positive reviews, I likely wouldn't've looked at the book twice.
 
DangerousPuhson said:
Ah yes, like that famous expression: "always judge a book by its cover"...

I thought we were all fretting about AI-generated writing, not the art? They may go hand-in-hand sometimes, but it's 100x easier to write text than it is to create art (in the technical sense), so it would follow that one is far more egregious an offence than the other. That is to say, there's loads of perfectly fine modules out there with AI art, but nearly everything written by AI has been trash, which is the real problem. Anyone can write, but not everyone can make art. You can't do a quick churn of garbage using just art; the text still needs to be written, and that's where all the thought, care, and effort goes (which is what buyers are paying for).

I'll expand:
There are many beloved modules with good writing and good art.
There are many beloved modules with good writing and no art.
There are many beloved modules with good writing and AI art.
There are many hated modules with bad writing and good art.
There are many hated modules with bad writing and no art.
There are many hated modules with bad writing and AI art.

Do we see the pattern here? Writing is central, art is supplemental.
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I think you missed my point. I was not saying that using AI art makes your module shit. I was saying that the frequent pairing of AI art with truly terrible AI (or even non-AI) writing might cause buyers to expect bad design when they see an AI art cover. Just look at most of the shit Bryce has been reviewing lately, the two are frequently paired. And if you look at the comments in those reviews, Bryce's readers (at least) are already starting to expect that they will be paired.

I'm not saying it's fair. If I ever published anything, I have no ability to produce my own art for it, I would have to rely on public domain art, AI art, stock art or commissioned art - and using commissioned art would definitely depend on how rich I was feeling. Or maybe do something like showing the regional map on the cover. But just because it isn't fair doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.

Although I am curious to have you point out to me the beloved modules with AI art. I think @Malrex said he has used some AI art (I can't remember if that includes covers), but outside The Merciless Merchants, can you point me to any?
 
Beoric said:
I think you missed my point. I was not saying that using AI art makes your module shit. I was saying that the frequent pairing of AI art with truly terrible AI (or even non-AI) writing might cause buyers to expect bad design when they see an AI art cover. Just look at most of the shit Bryce has been reviewing lately, the two are frequently paired. And if you look at the comments in those reviews, Bryce's readers (at least) are already starting to expect that they will be paired.
...
Although I am curious to have you point out to me the beloved modules with AI art.
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To your first statement: OK, I can see how there might be an automatic assumption that AI cover = AI rest-of-content, and that you are concerned about said trend. Point accepted. People gonna judge. That being said, it's a concern really only the authors need to bear. They're the ones who spin the wheel, so they play the game. No use fretting over or condemning. Success in a market is determined by what sells, not by what ought to sell.

To your second statement: It's tough to tell because users of AI art don't often announce its use, but if I had to wager a guess, I'd say a decent amount of Bryce's "The Best" category contains AI art. Also I don't have access to the full content, so only going off covers here, but of particular suspect among his recent reviews is Zjelwyin Fall, Slug House, or Valley of the Flowers. That's just the first few listings that stand out under Bryce's "The Best" tag of reviews. Again, not certain, and could be the case that it's not AI (and not looking to accuse anyone here), but it's just as likely that it could also be the case, and they at least very much look like AI art covers.
 
Slug House and Valley of the Flowers both claim to be handcrafted, and both credit human artists.

Zjelwyn Fall isn't on DriveThru so it makes no such claims. However, it is Anthony Huso whom Bryce has reviewed on two other occasions, once in 2017 (Night Wolf Inn) and once in 2019 (Geir Loe Cyn-Crul). That would be some sophisticated AI cover art for 2017. I can't find a publication date for Zjelwyn Fall, but looking at Huso's module numbering it looks like it was published before Bryce's review of Geir Loe Cyn-Crul on November 18, 2019.

I think all three covers are handcrafted.

EDIT: I found a publication date for Zjelwyn Fall: February 20, 2019. Night Wolf Inn was published October 5, 2016.

EDIT2: I stand corrected on Zjelwyn Fall. Maybe, it isn't really clear that those pics were actually in the module.

EDIT3: To correct the correction, he credits human artists for Zjewlwyn Fall. (Sorry for all of these, I'm currently diving down a Blue Bard rabbit hole.)
 
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AI or not, handcrafted or not, I guarantee even a basic older AI like Stable Diffusion could make a comparable cover to any of them, and likely has in the past. We just don't know for sure. And AI has only gotten better over the years - it can imitate any artist styles (even "handcrafted by a guy with a pencil") without cribbing parts from any of their actual works. Quite the impressive toy if you play around with it. I identified those works in particular because they look virtually indistinguishable to my own AI art experiments.
 
Beoric said:
Stable Diffusion was released in 2022. 2016 and 2019 are both before 2022.
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Yes I know, I just grabbed some covers at random from Bryce's The Best that have the look of AI. Because author's tend not to declare their use of AI, it makes finding specific examples difficult. But they are out there. I'm not combing through all of DTRPG to find them, is all.
 
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